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Mannyfit75
Guest
The Holy Spirit. But they didn’t carry the flesh of the Son of Man inside them. Mary did. Jesus reside in her for a period of nine month. She is the first Christian, and the first human being to have God inside her in FLESH.
We do have the Holy Spirit but the difference between you, and me and Mary is that we didn’t give birth to Jesus. Mary did. Mary breast feed Jesus, you didn’t. Mary read Jesus the Scripture, you didn’t. She did things a mother does to her son. You didn’t.
The other thing is that Jesus’ flesh and blood comes from his mother. Not from you and me. When the Holy Spirit overshadowed, her the Son of Man came into being. The invisible God became visible in the Person of Christ. It was through the flesh of Mary that Jesus has flesh, bone and blood.
That is the difference. She have a more intimate relationship with Jesus than you and me. That is the BIG DIFFERENCE! She is the proto-Christian. A Jewish woman obedient to God’s will. Always faithful handmaid of the Lord.
J
Jzyehoshua
Guest
It’s the spirit that brings life, the flesh profits nothing.
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anthony022071
Guest
Jesus told his apostles that he will remain in them if they remain in him. By “remain”,he meant following the commandments.
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Rbt_Southwell
Guest
You’re misquoting St John and missing the point: that was about the natural and the supernatural with the Spirit bringing life to those who eat His body and drink His blood: The Real Presence in the Eucharist.
If Moses commanded no one to go near tSinai: “If anyone touches the mountain he must be put to death.” (Exodus 19:12-15)
So, a pile of rock and dirt is sacred but, as the Sermon on the Mount changes and fulfills the Sinai “sermon” of the Ten Commandants, that God-as-fully-man-and-fully God is not???
So Mary can sin and have relations (see verse 15 above in Exodus) with St Joseph???
Your reasoning is illogical: is it infallible teaching in your church?
Robert
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Mannyfit75
Guest
It is different. You didn’t give flesh to the Son of Man. Mary did. Are you claiming that Jesus’ flesh profits nothing? For without his flesh, we would still be dead in SIN!
It was through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ’s body and his blood which was pour out at the cross that we have been redeemed. How dare you say the flesh profits nothing. Jesus’ flesh does profit.
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justasking4
Guest
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Mannyfit75
Guest
Are you saying Jesus’ flesh profit nothing? Because inside of Mary’s womb was Jesus’ body! Whole and entire. I think this is rather an insult to God. You can quote Scripture and put it out of context. I think you really mess up on this because you use the verse that flesh profits nothing.,
Since I have said that when Jesus first came into this word, he remain inside Mary for 9 months. He had a body. His flesh and blood. This is a major difference my friend. For in Christ’s body and blood, we are redeemed.
Was it not Jesus’ body crucified at the cross?
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Mannyfit75
Guest
Re-read CH’s post! He wrote, “past tense”
The Greek lexicon says kecharitomene. the perfect passive participle, shows a completeness with a permanent result. Kecharitomene denotes continuance of a completed action. In other word, she has been endowed with grace.
The Greek Fathers
Here are a number of ancient experts and what they say it means; each of them is a Greek-speaker from a culture basically identical to that of St. Luke; there are a couple repeats from the previous thread, but from them I give new material, too; the passages are expositions by the authors of the meaning of Luke 1:28, generally centered on chaire, Kecharitomene:
Gregory Thaumaturgus (205-270 AD):
O purest one
O purest virgin
where the Holy Spirit is, there are all things readily ordered. Where divine grace is present
the soil that, all untilled, bears bounteous fruit
in the life of the flesh, was in possession of the incorruptible citizenship, and walked as such in all manner of virtues, and lived a life more excellent than man’s common standard
thou hast put on the vesture of purity
has selected thee as the holy one and the wholly fair;
and through thy holy, and chaste, and pure, and undefiled womb
since of all the race of man thou art by birth the holy one, and the more honourable, and the purer, and the more pious than any other: and thou hast a mind whiter than the snow, and a body made purer than any gold.
Akathist hymn (5th or 6th century AD):
Hail, O you, through whom Joy will shine forth!
Hail, O you, through whom the curse will disappear!
Hail, O Restoration of the Fallen Adam!
Hail, O Redemption of the Tears of Eve!
Hail, O Peak above the reach of human thought!
Hail, O Depth even beyond the sight of angels!
Hail, O you who have become a Kingly Throne!
Hail, O you who carry Him Who Carries All!
Hail, O Star who manifest the Sun!
Hail, O Womb of the Divine Incarnation!
Hail, O you through whom creation is renewed!
Hail, O you through whom the Creator becomes a Babe!
Hail, O Bride and Maiden ever-pure!
Theodotus of Ancyra (early 5th century AD):
Hail, our desirable gladness;
Hail, O rejoicing of the churches;
Hail, O name that breates out sweetness;
Hail, face that radiates divinity and grace;
Hail, most venerable memory;
Hail, O spiritual and saving fleece;
Hail, O Mother of unsetting splendor, filled with light;
Hail, unstained Mother of holiness;
Hail, most limpid font of the lifegiving wave;
Hail, new Mother, workshop of the birth.
Hail, ineffable mother of a mystery beyond understanding;
Hail, new book of a new Scripture, of which, as Isaiah tells, angels and men are faithful witnesses;
Hail, alabaster jar of sanctifying ointment;
Hail, best trader of the coin of virginity;
Hail, creature embracing your Creator;
Hail, little container containing the Uncontainable.
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Church_Militant
Guest
Not at all…according to Romans 5:12 we are talking here about her redemption from Original Sin.
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Church_Militant
Guest
That’s a pretty twisted interpretation…
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Mannyfit75
Guest
Most of his interpretation has been very twisted and distorted so far.
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Church_Militant
Guest
That’s a very old heresy…
The fact is that that because Mary’s calling and function was unique, so also was God’s provision for her salvation.
I don’t see why you can’t figure this out all on your own it makes perfect sense when you read the New Testament.
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Church_Militant
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justasking4
Guest
What is the context for Matthew 6?
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justasking4
Guest
Huh? Can you show me speciifcally where this is in Romans 5:12? Where is there any mention of “her redemption from Original Sin” in Romans 5?
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justasking4
Guest
Note the defintion carefully. There is no mention in this definition of a person in this state being without sin.
These greek fathers are not saying these things based on the scriptures nor on what the word means. This is what Peter warned about in 2 Peter 2:1. This is what happens when you accept traditions that are not supported by the Scriptures.
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NotWorthy
Guest
Because Holy Mother Church says so and the Scriptures support it.
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justasking4
Guest
Half right. Your church says so but Scripture does not support it in the least.
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Mannyfit75
Guest
I’m not surprise about your objection. Peter warn about doctrine that is not consistent with the teachings of Jesus Christ. Peter for the most part is First among the Apostles. Anyways, I’m going to quote 2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring destructive heresies, and even denying the Master who bought them, bringing themselves upon themselves swift destruction.
Well, I don’t see how these Early Christian Greek Fathers deny the Master, whom we know is Jesus Christ.
Gregory Thaumaturgus didn’t denied his Master. Look what he wrote.
O purest one, O purest virgin,
where the Holy Spirit is, there are all things readily ordered. Where divine grace is present
the soil that, all untilled, bears bounteous fruit
in the life of the flesh, was in possession of the incorruptible citizenship, and walked as such in all manner of virtues, and lived a life more excellent than man’s common standard
thou hast put on the vesture of purity
has selected thee as the holy one and the wholly fair;
and through thy holy, and chaste, and pure, and undefiled womb since of all the race of man thou art by birth the holy one, and the more honourable, and the purer, and the more pious than any other: and thou hast a mind whiter than the snow, and a body made purer than any gold.
Gregory told of Mary giving birth to the Holy One, namely Jesus Christ. I don’t see how he denied the Master.
Or this Hymn:
Akathist hymn (5th or 6th century AD):
Hail, O you, through whom Joy will shine forth!
Hail, O you, through whom the curse will disappear!
Hail, O Restoration of the Fallen Adam!
Hail, O Redemption of the Tears of Eve!
Hail, O Peak above the reach of human thought!
Hail, O Depth even beyond the sight of angels!
Hail, O you who have become a Kingly Throne!
Hail, O you who carry Him Who Carries All!
Hail, O Star who manifest the Sun!
Hail, O Womb of the Divine Incarnation!
Hail, O you through whom creation is renewed!
Hail, O you through whom the Creator becomes a Babe!
Hail, O Bride and Maiden ever-pure!
Theodotus of Ancyra (early 5th century AD):
Hail, our desirable gladness;
Hail, O rejoicing of the churches;
Hail, O name that breates out sweetness;
Hail, face that radiates divinity and grace;
Hail, most venerable memory;
Hail, O spiritual and saving fleece;
Hail, O Mother of unsetting splendor, filled with light;
Hail, unstained Mother of holiness;
Hail, most limpid font of the lifegiving wave;
Hail, new Mother, workshop of the birth.
Hail, ineffable mother of a mystery beyond understanding;
Hail, new book of a new Scripture, of which, as Isaiah tells, angels and men are faithful witnesses;
Hail, alabaster jar of sanctifying ointment;
Hail, best trader of the coin of virginity;
Hail, creature embracing your Creator;
Hail, little container containing the Uncontainable.
Well, I don’t see how these Greek Fathers denied the Master? False doctrine is anything that denies Jesus Christ as God and the promised Messiah. That is false doctrine. 2 Peter 1:2 doesn’t even come close to what these Eastern Greek Fathers of the Church has said about Mary.
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