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justasking4
Guest
Were there fathers who did believe she sinned?
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justasking4
Guest
What do you think protestants consider you?
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guanophore
Guest
Both of you are off topic. Lets focus on the theology of Mary and Sin.
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sodak
Guest
I couldn’t care less. You are the ones prostelityzing on a Catholic forum.
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Good_Fella
Guest
The bottom line is that most Protestants reject the doctrine of Mary’s sinlessness because, for one reason, they embrace the false principle of ‘sola fide’ (Faith Alone). But the Bible and the Catholic Church teach that we are saved by both faith and works. The New Testament reveals that Mary had faith and performed good deeds. Mary said, “Behold the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word” (Lk 1,38). Elizabeth: “Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled” (Lk 1,45). Responding in faith is in itself a good deed, for the act of faith ultimately rests on free human initiative. Mary freely chose to conceive and bear the Messiah because of her unwavering faith and love of God. For the same reason, she chose not to sin, for God is not glorified by our transgressions. Surely, we must humble ourselves in order to “proclaim the greatness of the Lord” (Lk 1,46), but humbling ourselves does not mean that we should sin so that only God is good. This is the conclusion we reach by your line of reasoning. On the contrary, Jesus says, “Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect” ( Mt 5,48). Jesus means that it is required of us to be merciful and charitable in order to be saved. And that is why he says that not everyone who pronounces his name in faith will enter the kingdom of heaven (cf. Mt 7,21). Our good works are taken into account by God (cf. Mt 12, 37; 25, 40,45). Jesus adds, “Your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father” (Mt 5,16). Mary’s holiness and goodness as expressed in her faith and good deeds (She took care of her pregnant cousin for three months.) glorified God, for she freely and perfectly cooperated with God’s grace, unlike Eve who rejected God’s grace and chose to rebel against her Creator.
Our salvation depends on how we cooperate with God’s grace. And God will judge us according to our works (Rom 2, 6-10, 13). Faith amounts to humbling ourselves and cooperating with His grace. We know that Mary cooperated with God’s grace all her life without exception, for in her Canticle (Lk 1, 46) she declares with certainty that she has been saved. God is telling us through Luke that the mother of our Lord was sinless. A sinful person could not hope to be so sure as Mary is made out to be by the evangelist. And she could not have been sinless unless she was conceived preserved free from original sin. The sanctifying grace she received from God through the Holy Spirit in her mother’s womb was a free gift God chose to give her in his infinite wisdom, since she was to be the mother of his Only-begotten Son. A sinful mother of our Lord would diminish God’s glory, for holiness has absolutely nothing to do with profanity. The Sacred could not fittingly be fashioned in the profane womb of a sinful creature. Finally, we should keep in mind that the Son of Man refused to be called good on a level with his heavenly Father, but he was sinless throughout his entire life while on earth. And he added that anyone who keeps the commandments will enter eternal life. We are blessed by observing the law and keeping the commandments (Mt 19,17-18). Both Jesus and Mary heard the word of God and observed it. (cf. Jn 1,14; Lk 11,28). You seem to consider it unbecoming of God to grant a human creature the free gift of sanctifying grace the moment her soul is fashioned. But this is how Adam and Eve were originally created.‘God looked at everything he had made, and he found it very good’
(Gen 1,31). :yup:
Pax vobiscum
Good Fella
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Mannyfit75
Guest
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Old_Scholar
Guest
You see, you keep saying “the church” but in reality you mean “your” church. The Orthodox and Protestant churches also had the same origination as “your” church and in fact it was the Catholic Reformation that separated the RCC from the Luthran beliefs—not Martin Luther.
Many of you are too quick to brag about apostolic succession but that doesn’t exist. There is no unbroken line dirctly back to the apostles for you any more than for me.
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Mannyfit75
Guest
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Mannyfit75
Guest
This thread is getting off the topic due to some hard headed Non-Catholic Christians like Old Scholar. I had to admit** Old Scholar **doesn’t seen to have an expertise on history. He lacks a lot of insightful sources and most of his statement are false.
Anyways, let us get back to the topic.
Could Mary have sinned?
Mary has a free will. She could have sinned, but she didn’t. She cooperated with God’s grace. She is called “Hail, full of grace” as stated in Luke 1:28. She has been redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb. Mary by her own power could not save herself.
Pope Pius IX said it best:
“We declare, pronounce and define that the doctrine which holds that the Blessed Virgin Mary, at the first instant of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace of the Omnipotent God, in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind, was preserved immaculate from all stain of original sin, has been revealed by God, and therefore should firmly and constantly be believed by all the faithful.”
The Church defined this as dogmatic basing itself on Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.
Here are Scripture Basis:
In his Apostolic Constitution Ineffabilis Deus (8 December 1854), which officially defined the Immaculate Conception as dogma for the Catholic Church, Pope Pius IX primarily appealed to the text of Genesis 3:15, where the serpent was told by God, “I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed.” According to the Catholic understanding, this was a prophecy that foretold of a “woman” who would always be at enmity with the serpent—that is, a woman who would never be under the power of sin, nor in bondage to the serpent.
Some Catholic theologians have also found Scriptural evidence for the Immaculate Conception in the angel Gabriel’s greeting to Mary at the Annunciation, (Luke 1:28). The English translation, “Hail, Full of Grace,” or “Hail, Favored One,” is based on the Greek of Luke 1:28, “χαίρε, κεχαριτωμένη” (chaire kecharitomene), a phrase which can most literally be translated: “Rejoice, you who have been graced”. The latter word, kecharitomene, is the Passive voice, Present Perfect participle of the verb “to grace” in the feminine gender, vocative case; therefore the Greek syntax indicates that the action of the verb has been fully completed in the past, with results continuing into the future. Put another way, it means that the subject (Mary) was graced fully and completely at some time in the past, and continued in that fully graced state. The angel’s salutation does not refer to the Incarnation of Christ in Mary’s womb, as he proceeds to say: “thou shalt conceive in thy womb…” (Luke 1:31).
Anyways, let us get back to the topic.
Could Mary have sinned?
Mary has a free will. She could have sinned, but she didn’t. She cooperated with God’s grace. She is called “Hail, full of grace” as stated in Luke 1:28. She has been redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb. Mary by her own power could not save herself.
Pope Pius IX said it best:
“We declare, pronounce and define that the doctrine which holds that the Blessed Virgin Mary, at the first instant of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace of the Omnipotent God, in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind, was preserved immaculate from all stain of original sin, has been revealed by God, and therefore should firmly and constantly be believed by all the faithful.”
The Church defined this as dogmatic basing itself on Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.
Here are Scripture Basis:
In his Apostolic Constitution Ineffabilis Deus (8 December 1854), which officially defined the Immaculate Conception as dogma for the Catholic Church, Pope Pius IX primarily appealed to the text of Genesis 3:15, where the serpent was told by God, “I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed.” According to the Catholic understanding, this was a prophecy that foretold of a “woman” who would always be at enmity with the serpent—that is, a woman who would never be under the power of sin, nor in bondage to the serpent.
Some Catholic theologians have also found Scriptural evidence for the Immaculate Conception in the angel Gabriel’s greeting to Mary at the Annunciation, (Luke 1:28). The English translation, “Hail, Full of Grace,” or “Hail, Favored One,” is based on the Greek of Luke 1:28, “χαίρε, κεχαριτωμένη” (chaire kecharitomene), a phrase which can most literally be translated: “Rejoice, you who have been graced”. The latter word, kecharitomene, is the Passive voice, Present Perfect participle of the verb “to grace” in the feminine gender, vocative case; therefore the Greek syntax indicates that the action of the verb has been fully completed in the past, with results continuing into the future. Put another way, it means that the subject (Mary) was graced fully and completely at some time in the past, and continued in that fully graced state. The angel’s salutation does not refer to the Incarnation of Christ in Mary’s womb, as he proceeds to say: “thou shalt conceive in thy womb…” (Luke 1:31).
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Mannyfit75
Guest
The Church Fathers, almost from the beginning of Church History, found further Scriptural evidence by comparing the figure of Eve to the figure of Mary. St. Justin Martyr said that Mary was a kind of New Eve, “in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin.” (Dialogue with Trypho, 100) Tertullian argued in the same manner, saying, “As Eve had believed the serpent, so Mary believed the angel. The delinquency which the one occasioned by believing, the other by believing effaced.” (On the Flesh of Christ, 17) St. Irenaeus declared that Mary became “the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race,” because “what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.” (Against Heresies, Book III, cap. 22, 4) St. Jerome coined the phrase, “Death came through Eve, but life has come through Mary,” (Letter XXII, To Eustochium, 21). In addition “Blessed shall be the fruit of thy womb” is a reward for obedience to God by keeping the commandments.[Neutrality disputed — See talk page][3]
The Catholic Encyclopedia of 1914, however, states that these scriptures merely serve as corroborative evidence assuming that the dogma is already well established, and that there is insufficient evidence to prove the dogma to someone basing their beliefs solely on biblical interpretation:
No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture. …The salutation of the angel Gabriel — chaire kecharitomene, Hail, full of grace (Luke 1:28) indicates a unique abundance of grace… but the term kecharitomene (full of grace) serves only as an illustration, not as a proof of the dogma. ― Catholic Encyclopedia — Immaculate Conception
roof from Scripture
Scripture verses sometimes used to show her Immaculate Conception (other than Luke 1:28) are
“And you shall make the ark of testimony of incorruptible wood And you shall gild it with pure gold, you shall gild it within and without; and you shall make for it golden wreaths twisted round about.” (Exodus 25:10-11 Brenton LXX)
“So I made an ark of boards of incorruptible wood, and I hewed tables of stone like the first, and I went up to the mountain, and the two tables were in my hand.” (Deuteronomy 10:3 Brenton LXX)
Other translations use the words “setim,” “acacia,” “indestructible,” and “hard” to describe the wood used. In any case, Moses used this wood because it was regarded as very durable and “incorruptible.” Mary is regarded by Catholic and Orthodox Christians as being the Ark of the Covenant in the New Testament and therefore it would seem fitting that the New Ark likewise be made “incorruptible” or “immaculate.” The basis for called the Virgin Mary the Ark of the Covenant is based partly on the parallels of the Ark in Second Samuel 6 with the Nativity narrative of the Gospel of Luke. The Early Church Fathers have called Christ, the Church, and the Virgin Mary each at one point as being symbolized by the Ark. [4]
Mary is also shown as being totally faithful towards Christ, especially during his Passion, when he was abandoned by His followers, even the apostles (apart from the young John). Mary’s complete faithfulness could be the fruit of being sinless, as she could not then reject Christ in the darkest hour. In support to this doctrine, it also does not appear fit that Christ, God-incarnate, should be born in sinful vessel.
The Immaculate Conception also compares to the original righteousness of Adam and Eve. Also, as she is coneived without sin, Catholics use it in the argument that life starts at conception.
The Catholic Encyclopedia of 1914, however, states that these scriptures merely serve as corroborative evidence assuming that the dogma is already well established, and that there is insufficient evidence to prove the dogma to someone basing their beliefs solely on biblical interpretation:
No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture. …The salutation of the angel Gabriel — chaire kecharitomene, Hail, full of grace (Luke 1:28) indicates a unique abundance of grace… but the term kecharitomene (full of grace) serves only as an illustration, not as a proof of the dogma. ― Catholic Encyclopedia — Immaculate Conception
roof from ScriptureScripture verses sometimes used to show her Immaculate Conception (other than Luke 1:28) are
“And you shall make the ark of testimony of incorruptible wood And you shall gild it with pure gold, you shall gild it within and without; and you shall make for it golden wreaths twisted round about.” (Exodus 25:10-11 Brenton LXX)
“So I made an ark of boards of incorruptible wood, and I hewed tables of stone like the first, and I went up to the mountain, and the two tables were in my hand.” (Deuteronomy 10:3 Brenton LXX)
Other translations use the words “setim,” “acacia,” “indestructible,” and “hard” to describe the wood used. In any case, Moses used this wood because it was regarded as very durable and “incorruptible.” Mary is regarded by Catholic and Orthodox Christians as being the Ark of the Covenant in the New Testament and therefore it would seem fitting that the New Ark likewise be made “incorruptible” or “immaculate.” The basis for called the Virgin Mary the Ark of the Covenant is based partly on the parallels of the Ark in Second Samuel 6 with the Nativity narrative of the Gospel of Luke. The Early Church Fathers have called Christ, the Church, and the Virgin Mary each at one point as being symbolized by the Ark. [4]
Mary is also shown as being totally faithful towards Christ, especially during his Passion, when he was abandoned by His followers, even the apostles (apart from the young John). Mary’s complete faithfulness could be the fruit of being sinless, as she could not then reject Christ in the darkest hour. In support to this doctrine, it also does not appear fit that Christ, God-incarnate, should be born in sinful vessel.
The Immaculate Conception also compares to the original righteousness of Adam and Eve. Also, as she is coneived without sin, Catholics use it in the argument that life starts at conception.
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guanophore
Guest
Why do you keep tryiing to derail the thread, OS? I know it is getting close to closing anyway, but it just seems like your hostility toward Catholicism is oozing so much that you can’t stay focused! I answered this post on another thread that is appropriate to the topic.:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3330167#post3330167
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Mannyfit75
Guest
I do notice Old Scholar’s Anti-Catholic rant.
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justasking4
Guest
Is someone who disagrees with the catholic church considered anti catholic?
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davidv
Guest
No. But one mis-states Her teachings and berates us for it, is.
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justasking4
Guest
What should we call someone who misuses the Scriptures?
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Mannyfit75
Guest
In my opinion, yes. Of course to a certain extend.
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Mannyfit75
Guest
in addition, a fellow Catholic stated the following:
guanophore:
guanophore address OS. Any form of hostility towards the Catholic faith is an Anti-Catholic.
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Mannyfit75
Guest
Let’s get back on topic concerning the question of the original thread. “Could Mary have sinned?”
So far, I think the Catholics here have made an excellent presentation to prove their case.
So far, I think the Catholics here have made an excellent presentation to prove their case.
O
Old_Scholar
Guest
You are incorrect. You can not prove apostolic succession and I can prove it is false. We can take it up in another thread.
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Old_Scholar
Guest
You need to differentiate between the Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Church. The Catholic Church does not recognize the pope as a leader except in Rome.
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