Could Muhammad of been a prophet?

[daler]

I’m sorry, but you’re still completely missing what I’ve posted. Let’s start again my friend:

Qur’an 57:3 He who gives life and death; and he has power over all things. He is the first and the last, the evident and the hidden: and he has full knowledge of all things.

Isaiah 44:6"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
**'I am the first and I am the last, **
And there is no God besides Me.

Rev 1:17When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, **"Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18*and the living One; and I was dead, **and behold, I am alive

Revelation clearly speaks of Jesus saying He is the first and the last, was dead and is now alive. He took the title of, “The first and the last” can you please explain in your own words why He would do such a thing if that title only belongs to God?

dr,
. Let us not forget Lord Krsna in here, also saying: - `I am the Beginning and the End’.

. Can we not consider that God is the One speaking? He fashions Divine Instruments in human form and repeats His Words: “I am God, the Beginning and the End”

. If we “deify” the Sony speaker on the shelf, or the Magnavox, or the Panasonic speaker, and say: That is the Radio Station. The DJ is in this box!!! Then we assume that the speaker is the Source, when in fact, it was created by God for the purpose of revealing His voice, and His words…

. It is natural, I suppose, to assume that the speaker is the radio station, for a child, but to travel around the rooms in many houses and see the same song being played on many different audio boxes tells us, at some point, that there is someone behind the curtain that we can’t see.

. Then, with our natural tendency towards prejudice, which originates out of the need to preserve our ego, we assume that “our” speaker exceeds in rank all the other speakers, and begin to belittle them. “Well thats only a Philco, and yours is a mere General Electric…”

. Maybe God is bigger than all of these speakers on all these shelfs over all these ages and He just keeps guiding us like little sheep towards a new pasture in the springtime where we can eat and get fat on the nourishment that only He can provide. And when some of the sheep say to other sheep, “Hey… come on over here. There’s some fresh alfalfa growin’ up all over the place… and its gooood!”

. Well, there’s always somebody out there in the pasture saying: NO Stay here, little sheep. “I” will tell you when and where the grass grows. Don’t you dare go strayin’ off, cause you’re “mine”!!

. And isn’t that just about the way its always worked?

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Thank you Miss

Yes, you are correct Jesus never said “The Lord sayeth…” Etc etc

Jesus made the foundational statement that the Words He speaks are not His, but the Words of the Father.

These things cannot be discounted

We need to be servants of God, not servants of doctrine, don’t you think?

One doesn’t serve doctrine, one draws doctrine from a set of information by which a practice of faith is established. If you have no doctrine, no symbols you cannot have a practice from which to draw on and hence you will have no religion but be an atheist. Bahai have doctrine, you dogmatically assert that you must accept the manifestations no? Can a bahai be a bahai and say “I think Moses was okay, but he was a ruthless warlord who might not have existed, certaintly he was not a role model of manifestation like that of Baha’u’llah.”? No they could not, because wtihin your religion there is a doctrine expressed in the teachings of your faith.

Jesus did the will of his father and all things on earth that were the father’s were the son’s, remember that. This earth is sustained because of the son.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Until it comes to the part where Jesus says “The Father is greater than I”, and

. “John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do…”

The Father Son & Holy Spirit are ALL equally the One God,
yet each hold different offices in the plan of salvation. That’s
what Jesus’ subservience to the Father means. Such is the
same case for the Holy Spirit, who testifies of and draws at-
tention to the Son, who testifies and draws attention to The
Father, who is the head of the salvation of man.

and Mark 10:18:

. “And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.”

. So the Jesus is “the Son” because He does the will of the Father, and not His own will.

. This piece of glass is “the Mirror” because it reflects the Sunlight perfectly. It does not generate the light, of its own will…

.

Did the man who call Jesus “good” KNOW that Jesus is in fact God? The man did not
know and Jesus was aware of that, so he expressed two points: ONLY God is good &
he was also implying “Are you ready to accept that I am God?”

And the glass analogy is weak, I prefer the Nicene Creed:
“God from God, Light pro-
ceeding from Light, Very
God from Very God.”
Why, because that is what the Bible expresses.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

I would explore the NATURE of God and the NATURE of the human form for your answer

You’re avoiding the question. Let me ask it another way.
How do you explain Revelation 1:17 in light of verse 18,
which follows right after with **no **indication of change of
character speaking?

(While I’m still talking about how
the Baha’i Faith is wrong, let me
also revisit the so-called prophet
Muhammad: He’s wrong as well)
​

 

[dronald]

You’re avoiding the question. Let me ask it another way.
How do you explain Revelation 1:17 in light of verse 18
which follows right after with NO indication of change in
character?

(While I’m still talking about how
the Baha’i Faith is wrong, let me
also revisit the so-called prophet
Muhammad: He’s wrong as well)
​

Yes, servant19 I would also like to read your response. Especially in light of the two other passages, one from the Qur’an and one from the Tanakh.

 

[daler]

The Father Son & Holy Spirit are ALL equally the One God,
yet each hold different offices in the plan of salvation. That’s
what Jesus’ subservience to the Father means. Such is the
same case for the Holy Spirit, who testifies of and draws at-
tention to the Son, who testifies and draws attention to The
Father, who is the head of the salvation of man.

Did the man who call Jesus “good” KNOW that Jesus is in fact God? The man did not
know and Jesus was aware of that, so he expressed two points: ONLY God is good &
he was also implying “Are you ready to accept that I am God?”

And the glass analogy is weak, I prefer the Nicene Creed:
“God from God, Light pro-
ceeding from Light, Very
God from Very God.”
Why, because that is what the Bible expresses.

But ya see, Judas, that there are always these little things that pop up, like “Not My will, but Thine…” don’t cha know. So for a lot of people there are ways of looking at this stuff without feeling like they have to submit to some sort of shell game of “now ya see me, now ya don’t”,

or if I can say this without meaning to offend anyone, its ends up sounding like, “now I’m god, now I’m not”, etc… Do you follow the difficulties that some of us have with it? Don’t mean to put anyone down in whatever their understanding is, for is the truth that shall set us all free, and we can’t be free unless we speak the truth, and if the way I see the truth is expressed a little different than the way you see the truth, well thats alright by me, and is it alright by you?

So the sun stays in the sky, shinin’ brighter than the dickens, and there’s this little shiny mirror down on the earth, just reflecting that light perfectly, and its all shiny and bright, and then these little dirty rocks get jealous and brush up against it and it won’t cease to shine so they break the mirror. Crucify it, more or less, thinking that’ll make the sun quit shining.

The mirror was capable of saying: “The sun is greater than I”, cause its a mirror, and not the sun. but that doesn’t make everybody happy who is used to saying the mirror is the sun, and so they argue on and on and seem to be offended.

The sun, meanwhile, is shining so pure through this little instrument that it in fact can also say, “Before Abraham was (He’s another mirror, don’t cha know), I am” and its not talking about the mirror of the present, but that before the mirror of the past the same sun was shinin’ and always will be.

so when they’re busy breakin’ the mirror it looks up to the sun and says, “Not my light, but yours” and after a few days all the folks that had turned towards the mirror to receive the light it shed realized that the sun was still shinin’, that it had indeed risen, and that simply breaking the mirror doesn’t destroy the sun!!

. and they prayed happily ever after, don’t cha know…

.

 

[Servant19]

Yes, servant19 I would also like to read your response. Especially in light of the two other passages, one from the Qur’an and one from the Tanakh.

For humans, the method by which we can understand anything is through verbal or written Word.

God brought Jesus into this earthly plane to communicate His Word to us, through which We may be enabled to “draw nigh unto Him”

The Word is spoken THROUGH the human vehicle of Jesus.

Isaiah also had The Lord speak through Him. “The Lord sayeth…”

In the Quranic quote you provided dronald, again Allah is revealing Himself THROUGH His Word, spoken VIA Muhammad.

Jesus appeared in the visions of Revelation, not as God, but as the Mouthpiece and Messenger of God…He never says “I am God”

Even though Baha’u’llah on several occasions says “I am God”, Baha’is still have an understanding that the Essence of God is beyond even Baha’u’llah …

Please feel free to ask if this is not clear…
There is nothing in the Bible that contradicts this stance

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

But ya see, Judas, that there are always these little things that pop up, like “Not My will, but Thine…” don’t cha know. So for a lot of people there are ways of looking at this stuff without feeling like they have to submit to some sort of shell game of “now ya see me, now ya don’t”,
or if I can say this without meaning to offend anyone, its ends up sounding like, “now I’m god, now I’m not”, etc… Do you follow the difficulties that some of us have with it? Don’t mean to put anyone down in whatever their understanding is, for is the truth that shall set us all free, and we can’t be free unless we speak the truth, and if the way I see the truth is expressed a little different than the way you see the truth, well thats alright by me, and is it alright by you?
So the sun stays in the sky, shinin’ brighter than the dickens, and there’s this little shiny mirror down on the earth, just reflecting that light perfectly, and its all shiny and bright, and then these little dirty rocks get jealous and brush up against it and it won’t cease to shine so they break the mirror. Crucify it, more or less, thinking that’ll make the sun quit shining.
The mirror was capable of saying: “The sun is greater than I”, cause its a mirror, and not the sun. but that doesn’t make everybody happy who is used to saying the mirror is the sun, and so they argue on and on and seem to be offended.
The sun, meanwhile, is shining so pure through this little instrument that it in fact can also say, “Before Abraham was (He’s another mirror, don’t cha know), I am” and its not talking about the mirror of the present, but that before the mirror of the past the same sun was shinin’ and always will be.
so when they’re busy breakin’ the mirror it looks up to the sun and says, “Not my light, but yours” and after a few days all the folks that had turned towards the mirror to receive the light it shed realized that the sun was still shinin’, that it had indeed risen, and that simply breaking the mirror doesn’t destroy the sun!!
. and they prayed happily ever after, don’t cha know…
.

Great, great, could you say that again without sounding like a smart aleck? :ehh:
And make more clear and short, for the way you said it really cast a sort of nonsensical haze over whatever your explanation was.

 

[dronald]

For humans, the method by which we can understand anything is through verbal or written Word.

God brought Jesus into this earthly plane to communicate His Word to us, through which We may be enabled to “draw nigh unto Him”

The Word is spoken THROUGH the human vehicle of Jesus.

Isaiah also had The Lord speak through Him. “The Lord sayeth…”

In the Quranic quote you provided dronald, again Allah is revealing Himself THROUGH His Word, spoken VIA Muhammad.

Jesus appeared in the visions of Revelation, not as God, but as the Mouthpiece and Messenger of God…He never says “I am God”

Even though Baha’u’llah on several occasions says “I am God”, Baha’is still have an understanding that the Essence of God is beyond even Baha’u’llah …

Please feel free to ask if this is not clear…
There is nothing in the Bible that contradicts this stance

Jesus said, “I am the first and the last.” Are you saying Jesus was saying that God was saying it and Jesus was just passing on the message? Did God die?

 

[Servant19]

Jesus said, “I am the first and the last.” Are you saying Jesus was saying that God was saying it and Jesus was just passing on the message? Did God die?

If Jesus was the Messenger, then whatever happens to Him never remotely “TOUCHES” the Master.

You can do as you wish with the Messenger, crucify Him, torture Him, but will never kill the WORD…the Word is with the Master, and the Word is the Master, but the most perfect Messenger for that Word was seen in Jesus.

Jesus wasn’t passing on the Message, He was channelling the Message so perfectly that to humans, there is no discernible difference between Him and the Master (the Father)

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

For humans, the method by which we can understand anything is through verbal or written Word.
God brought Jesus into this earthly plane to communicate His Word to us, through which We may be enabled to “draw nigh unto Him”
The Word is spoken THROUGH the human vehicle of Jesus.
Isaiah also had The Lord speak through Him. “The Lord sayeth…”
In the Quranic quote you provided dronald, again Allah is revealing Himself THROUGH His Word, spoken VIA Muhammad.
Jesus appeared in the visions of Revelation, not as God, but as the Mouthpiece and Messenger of God…He never says “I am God”
Even though Baha’u’llah on several occasions says “I am God”, Baha’is still have an understanding that the Essence of God is beyond even Baha’u’llah …
Please feel free to ask if this is not clear…
There is nothing in the Bible that contradicts this stance

But now you’re differentiating between the
Word of God and Jesus, when the Bible
clearly tells us that the Word IS Jesus:
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
(and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the on-
ly begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

• (John1:14)
  You acknowledge that Isaiah also had YHWH speak through him, when Isaiah
  clearly says “Thus says YHWH…”, but you fail to miss that when Jesus says
  that he is The First & The Last, as Isaiah proclaimed YHWH declared, Jesus
  did NOT say “Thus says YHWH…”, BECAUSE HE IS YHWH.

Good that you brought Muhammad back up again, this thread should still have
something to do with him. He is a false prophet. Why? Because he contradicts
the revelation of the Bible. Oh Wait! Classic Anti-Christian answer:
Forget The Bible!
Now on Jesus never explicitly stating that he is God, true, but Jesus also never said the exact four words, “I am a prophet” or the exact four words “I am a man,” but we know he was both a prophet and a man, no? When Jesus identified himself as I AM,
he meant that he is the I AM that spoke to Moses. When Jesus said that he and the
Father ARE ONE, we find that the Jews knew darn well what that meant, and so do
you, so you have to reinterpret that.

 

[Servant19]

But now you’re differentiating between the
Word of God and Jesus, when the Bible
clearly tells us that the Word IS Jesus:

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
(and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the on-
ly begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

• (John1:14)

Look at this, dear friend, fro the perspective of what the limitations of understanding of the human being is.

Judas, to all intents and purposes, Jesus IS the Master. HE is the PERFECT Representative and Mouthpiece.

When He appears in front of a human being and talks, He IS THE WORD.

I think St.Basil said it very well:

“8. Since then, as says the Lord in the Gospels, John 14:9 he that has seen the Son sees the Father also; on this account he says that the Only-begotten is the express image of His Father’s person. That this may be made still plainer I will quote also other passages of the apostle in which he calls the Son the image of the invisible God, Colossians 1:15 and again image of His goodness; not because the image differs from the Archetype according to the definition of indivisibility and goodness, but that it may be shown that it is the same as the prototype, even though it be different. For the idea of the image would be lost were it not to preserve throughout the plain and invariable likeness. He therefore that has perception of the beauty of the image is made perceptive of the Archetype. So he, who has, as it were mental apprehension of the form of the Son, prints the express image of the Father’s hypostasis, beholding the latter in the former, not beholding in the reflection the unbegotten being of the Father (for thus there would be complete identity and no distinction), but gazing at the unbegotten beauty in the Begotten. Just as he who in a polished mirror beholds the reflection of the form as plain knowledge of the represented face, so he, who has knowledge of the Son, through his knowledge of the Son receives in his heart the express image of the Father’s Person. For all things that are the Father’s are beheld in the Son, and all things that are the Son’s are the Father’s; because the whole Son is in the Father and has all the Father in Himself. Thus the hypostasis of the Son becomes as it were form and face of the knowledge of the Father, and the hypostasis of the Father is known in the form of the Son, while the proper quality which is contemplated therein remains for the plain distinction of the hypostases.”

newadvent.org/fathers/3202038.htm

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

If Jesus was the Messenger, then whatever happens to Him never remotely “TOUCHES” the Master.
You can do as you wish with the Messenger, crucify Him, torture Him, but will never kill the WORD…the Word is with the Master, and the Word is the Master, but the most perfect Messenger for that Word was seen in Jesus.
Jesus wasn’t passing on the Message, He was channelling the Message so perfectly that to humans, there is no discernible difference between Him and the Master (the Father)

Very well, time to pull out the big gun:
Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy
Spirit has made you guardians, to feed the Church of the Lord
which he obtained WITH HIS OWN BLOOD.

• (Acts 20:28)
  Do you see now? GOD DIED! God came to pay the penalty which we never could,
  DIED the death that should have been ours, reconciled humanity to Himself, shed-
  ding his own blood to wash away our sins. This is the Messiah, and His Name is
  Jesus, Yeshua, Yehoshua, YHWH IS SALVATION!

 

[daler]

Great, great, could you say that again without sounding like a smart aleck? :ehh:
And make more clear and short, for the way you said it really cast a sort of nonsensical haze over whatever your explanation was.

God bless you big time, Judas…

. Its a kind of a cultural thang… back on the farm way o’ talkin’, don’t cha know… Will try to set that aside, my friend.

. There is a matter of trying to resolve these “apparent” discrepancies, which have traditionally been explained by the “Trinity” doctrine, right? It works pretty good, but there are some issues with taking it all literally and not coming up with three separate Gods, which comes up in the Quran, etc. So this is an effort to communicate another way of understanding the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost without offending anyone.

. Let us say that the Source of all Light is God, and that the Light appears on earth through the Mirror. Now the Mirror is not the origin of the Light (Holy Spirit), as in: “These are not My words”.

. But to humanity, the Word of God must be made flesh, that is, it must be made manifest to us somehow, and the Holy Person of Jesus is like this Divine Mirror, and He is the means by which God sheds “His” Light upon humanity, that we might grow and benefit spiritually, and not just live a physical life like an animal and then die.

. So the object is to understand the position of the sun, the mirror, and the light. In the analogy, this is God, His Manifestation (or Messenger), and the Word. The sun does not come out of the sky, but remains millions of miles away, but there is this perfectly polished mirror, which perfectly reflects that sunlight, or its rays, to us… and we “need” that light, right?

. Therefore, we “need” that mirror to bring that light to us, because if we approach the sun directly, we get cooked. “No man cometh to the Father but by Me” So “He” is the means by which we approach God. We have no other way to “come to the Father” but by Him. Ok… What is meant by this?

. The station of the Mirror is the point of the manifestation of the Light of God. The Mirror says: “God is greater than I” Or the sun is always bigger than the mirror, which serves to reflect the light.

. When at times, we look at that mirror, we see the sun itself. “He who hath seen Me hath seen the Father”, because “I and My Father are one.” So we look at the mirror and see the sun, yet the “mirror” is not actually the sun. Though if we look at the mirror, we certainly can say: “I see the sun!!” Because we do see the sun, or at least its image.

. But then when the bad guys start getting called out as the mirror shines God’s light on them, they start to run, but have no place to hide. So they break the mirror, foolishly thinking that by doing so they put out the light of the sun which exposes their evil doings.

. Don’t know if you’re following this. Kind of tired, so please forgive me. The purpose of looking at it this way is to understand “Who” Jesus is, kind of like saying “what” is a mirror, while at the same time making sense of why He says God is greater than I, and “These are not My words, but Him that sent Me.” without diminishing the Station He holds.

. So at one time, the mirror appears to say, “I am the sun”, while at another it says, “The sun is greater than I” (for I am a mirror) Therefore, logically, both can be true. The same with Jesus (a Perfect Mirror) being able to say: “Before Abraham was, I am”, while at another saying, “The Father is greater than I”

. Hope this helps a little.

.

.

 

[Servant19]

Good that you brought Muhammad back up again, this thread should still have
something to do with him. He is a false prophet. Why? Because he contradicts
the revelation of the Bible. Oh Wait! Classic Anti-Christian answer:
Forget The Bible!

No no no…DON’T FORGET THE BIBLE.

It is you that is forgetting the first 10 references you gave, which I typed out for you “word for word”, which all reflected PERFECTLY what is the Islamic understanding of Jesus and the other Messengers.

What is being preached here is “exclusivity” and “one upmanship” which is contrary to EVERYTHING in the Bible.

As I said, some are servants of the game rather than servants of the One God

God bless

 

[Servant19]

Very well, time to pull out the big gun:
Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy
Spirit has made you guardians, to feed the Church of the Lord
which he obtained WITH HIS OWN BLOOD.

• (Acts 20:28)
  Do you see now? GOD DIED! God came to pay the penalty which we never could,
  DIED the death that should have been ours, reconciled humanity to Himself, shed-
  ding his own blood to wash away our sins. This is the Messiah, and His Name is
  Jesus, Yeshua, Yehoshua, YHWH IS SALVATION!

Yes, from the perspective of human beings, who cannot fathom ANYTHING beyond Jesus, then you are correct, Jesus is our Lord. But that still does not discount the reality that there was a Master, and He is God.

The Master is God ontologically
Jesus is God epistemologically.

It all fits in too well with ALL the Biblical verses, can’t you see dear friend?

 

[Servant19]

Do you deny what St. Basil said?

“the Son is the express image of the invisible God…”

If Jesus was God, St. Basil would write, “Jesus is God” …not some “image” of God…

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Look at this, dear friend, fro the perspective of what the limitations of understanding of the human being is.

Judas, to all intents and purposes, Jesus IS the Master. HE is the PERFECT Representative and Mouthpiece…

That’s actually almost perfect the way you stated that, Paul
said something similar, but with an even more profound TruthSpeaking of Jesus):
Who is the image of the invisible God, the ** firstborn** of every creature:
For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and
invisible, whether thrones, or nominations, or principalities, or powers:
all things were created by him and in him. And he is before all,and by
him all things consist.

• (Colossians 1:15-17)

I think St.Basil said it very well:

You can’t exactly quote a Catholic Saint. Why Not? Why ever Not? Because he does
not believe the same thing you do. He said what he said very well, but you can’t use it
to support your case when he himself would never approve with your usage of his own
words. Also, he was one of the many theologians who actually supported the Nicene
Creed, devistating to the Baha’i Faith. Not only that, in the very quote you chose just
so happens to use the word hypostasis, a word which has been used to describe the
union of Christ’s humanity and divinity.

So on the one hand, it’s just plain unfair to take a quote out
of its context, on the other it is rather funny when the quote
you wrongly use happens to hurt your position.
youtube.com/watch?v=SKm5xQyD2vE

 

[Servant19]

That’s actually almost perfect the way you stated that, Paul
said something similar, but with an even more profound Truth:

(Speaking of Jesus):
Who is the image of the invisible God, the ** firstborn** of every creature:
For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and
invisible, whether thrones, or nominations, or principalities, or powers:
all things were created by him and in him. And he is before all,and by
him all things consist.

• (Colossians 1:15-17)

Yes, from my study of Baha’u’llah’s Revelation I agree with all that Paul said. Jesus was the creator of everything that we know of

But He still was not the Master

Imagine that!

How arrogant of us to be so immature as to think that we can know God…let us pray the Lords prayer.

Was Jesus praying to God in the Lords prayer starting with the Words “Our Father…”?

.​

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Do you deny what St. Basil said?

“the Son is the express image of the invisible God…”

If Jesus was God, St. Basil would write, “Jesus is God” …not some “image” of God…

I deny your usage of Basil’s words which are not applicable to your beliefs.

If Jesus wasn’t God, St. Basil would not have been a supporter for the Nicene Creed.