Could Muhammad of been a prophet?

[dronald]

When Jesus returns he will establish an earthly Kingdom and will engage in wars and acquire wealth and riches, things needs to maintain an earthly Kingdom. And he will enjoy the comforts of his earthly gains.

Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you the real Jesus as seen through the eyes of Islam.

 

[Dave_B]

You can summarize our difference to one point. We do not see Jesus as God. And I personally have researched this issue, and I do not see God becoming man nor do I find it an acceptable belief within the context of the Abrahamic religions. Muslims and Jews reject this idea and belief. …

I am convinced that the basic problem is that Muslims beliefs are almost identical to the old testament (the Hebrew Bible), as if the new testament didnt happen. The Quran is a re-write of much of the old testament, and has very little in it from the new.

We pray to the same God. But this is why there are irreconcilable differences.

 

[dronald]

**“God is not a man that He should Lie, nor the Son of man that He should repent.” **Numbers 23:19

I know Christians have their apologetics to this verse, but I am not personally convinced of their arguments.

I hope you don’t use this passage to deceive your peers in life outside of this forum. Can you point me then (since I did refute this and you had used no linguistic argument against my refutation) where the earliest evidence was of people pulling this passage out against Christians?

I’ve looked for it; it’s not there. All because you’re twisting the English language to fit your beliefs. It’s intentionally misguided and down right sickening.

 

[Dave_B]

Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you the real Jesus as seen through the eyes of Islam.

Good spot. I missed that. Jesus “engage in wars” It is terrible shame that some ppl on the planet think in this way.

 

[Reuben_J]

Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you the real Jesus as seen through the eyes of Islam.

Which is a great about turn from the simplicity of the Son of Man who has "nowhere to lay his head.”

 

[TheSufi]

I hope you don’t use this passage to deceive your peers in life outside of this forum. Can you point me then (since I did refute this and you had used no linguistic argument against my refutation) where the earliest evidence was of people pulling this passage out against Christians?

I’ve looked for it; it’s not there. All because you’re twisting the English language to fit your beliefs. It’s intentionally misguided and down right sickening.

Deception from the perspective of a Christian, who believes God became man, truth from the perspective of language, and meaning.

 

[dronald]

Deception from the perspective of a Christian, who believes God became man, truth from the perspective of language, and meaning.

Sure, now show me the earliest evidence of Christians having to defend this passage.

 

[TheSufi]

Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you the real Jesus as seen through the eyes of Islam.

Jesus will have a war with anti Christ.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Deception from the perspective of a Christian, who believes God became man, truth from the perspective of language, and meaning.

"God is incapable of coming to indwell a tabernacle of flesh, " says Islam.
The New Testament tells a different story.

 

[dronald]

Jesus will have a war with anti Christ.

I was more concerned with your “enjoy the comforts of his earthly gains” This statement is anti-Christ. Jesus spoke blatantly against all worldly treasures. All of them.

So did the disciples.

 

[TheSufi]

Sure, now show me the earliest evidence of Christians having to defend this passage.

I haven’t read everything from the early Christians.

It is still a strong proof none the less. And I have convinced many people by it as well.
The Christian refutation of it is some what complicated to understand which is why many common people are not convinced of rebuttal presented by Christians.

 

[TheSufi]

I was more concerned with your “enjoy the comforts of his earthly gains” This statement is anti-Christ. Jesus spoke blatantly against all worldly treasures. All of them.

So did the disciples.

So did Prophet Muhammad.

 

[dronald]

I haven’t read everything from the early Christians.

It is still a strong proof none the less. And I have convinced many people by it as well.
The Christian refutation of it is some what complicated to understand which is why many common people are not convinced of rebuttal presented by Christians.

Okay, well could you so I can have some evidence of your claim? The virgin birth (which we both accept) was challenged by Jews as early as the second century. Surely they would have brought up this passage if it means what you say.

Do you believe that Muhammad is a man that would lie?

So did Prophet Muhammad.

Yes, Muhammad said his good things and his bad. Jesus only spoke of rejection of earthly goods. Jesus never taught that He or anyone should want any luxuries, ever.

I don’t know if Muhammad agrees but you’ve posted two things now.

 

[TheSufi]

Okay, well could you so I can have some evidence of your claim? The virgin birth (which we both accept) was challenged by Jews as early as the second century. Surely they would have brought up this passage if it means what you say.

Do you believe that Muhammad is a man that would lie?

Yes, Muhammad said his good things and his bad. Jesus only spoke of rejection of earthly goods. Jesus never taught that He or anyone should want any luxuries, ever.

I don’t know if Muhammad agrees but you’ve posted two things now.

My inability to present things in the most eloquent of ways is not a reflection of the teachings of Islam, but rather my imperfection.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Or it could also be said “preconceived notion of the prophet’s imperfection”.
**
Muhammad Stands upon His own Word to which one can only use to judge Him.**

As the Truth of Christ also stands Upon His Word.

Mankind missed the boat when they rejected Muhammad, May we all see the error of that denial.

Regards Tony

By that you mean the quran and it alone? Such a task is impossible given the nature of the quran which assumes a context the reader is already familiar with, ie the life of Muhammad. How best do we explain the meaning of certain surahs? We look into the islamic traditions on how they were revealed and that enlightens the meaning, or else we can read any number of things into the text. Its like reading the new testament, not knowing about first century judaism, not knowing about the roman empire, the geography or anything like that, you know, exactly how bahai read the new testament.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

It is not unbiblical or unrighteous to have wars, wives, and comfort. Establishing an Earthy Kingdom will have earthly benefits. When Jesus returns he will establish an earthly Kingdom and will engage in wars and acquire wealth and riches, things needs to maintain an earthly Kingdom. And he will enjoy the comforts of his earthly gains. While Prophet Muhammad did acquire physical things, he did not live like a King, he did not have a palace (and could have), nor the finer things in life. One needs to look at not only his physical gains, but Prophet Muhammad’s spiritual legacy.

In regards to hadiths there are authentic hadiths and fabricated Hadith. Both Muslims and Christians have established particular standards by which statements and actions of Jesus and Prophet Muhammad are acceptable or unacceptable as proof. In this we are no different than Christians.

I understand why you don’t accept Prophet Muhammad as a prophet, but your logic is flawed.

My chief responce was to the idea that muhammad never did anything for worldy gain, since you admit had wives, warring, and earthly benefits you aren’t refuting me, rather you are refuting the bahai who said muhammad was purely unselfish, which isn’t true given the sources.

That being said, as far as the islamic idea of judging right sayings of the prophet, its always verbatim constrained by the ability you cannot attribute anything false to the prophet, you cannot say any of the embarressing stories are correct. I have yet to see hte idea of the science of the hadith explained in a way that makes it an equal to Christian historical study of the new testmanet which more or less is based on western ideas of judging history. There is simply no comparison to the work done on the new testament (positive or negative) historically when compared to the quran.

That being said, I deny the prophet’s spiritual legacy by some very important errors and mistakes in the quran which I have not had any muslim or bahai give a good responce to. Who were for instance, the true followers of Jesus whom were victorious, the ones who prevailed and why do we find no trace of them in history except for the quran?

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

If a person takes on a position of leadership, his effectiveness is enhanced by appearances. Thus, if the standard of potentates in a society is to have opulence, then more people will be impressed if the leader shows opulence. The Catholic Church has not refrained from exhibiting its riches. St. Peter’s Basilica is certainly impressive. So is the apparel of the Vatican cardinals. I don’t think they would be as effective if they appeared in rags.

In Muhammad’s day, looking superior gained the respect of followers. I don’t think casting aspersions on Muhammad because of his lifestyle toward the end of his life achieves anything. When he was starting out in his work, he had only one wife. It was only when his followers expected him to be like the typical potentates of his day that he accumulated wives and other riches.

I like how people are ignoring what I was responding to. I only was responding to the idea a bahai put forward that Muhammad did nothing for worldly gain. Please people consider that.

 

[TheSufi]

My chief responce was to the idea that muhammad never did anything for worldy gain, since you admit had wives, warring, and earthly benefits you aren’t refuting me, rather you are refuting the bahai who said muhammad was purely unselfish, which isn’t true given the sources.

That being said, as far as the islamic idea of judging right sayings of the prophet, its always verbatim constrained by the ability you cannot attribute anything false to the prophet, you cannot say any of the embarressing stories are correct. I have yet to see hte idea of the science of the hadith explained in a way that makes it an equal to Christian historical study of the new testmanet which more or less is based on western ideas of judging history. There is simply no comparison to the work done on the new testament (positive or negative) historically when compared to the quran.

That being said, I deny the prophet’s spiritual legacy by some very important errors and mistakes in the quran which I have not had any muslim or bahai give a good responce to. Who were for instance, the true followers of Jesus whom were victorious, the ones who prevailed and why do we find no trace of them in history except for the quran?

Prophet Muhammad was unselfish, one can see that if one studied his life.

You haven’t studied Islam. it is very difficult to explain things to people who don’t have a context.

I don’t believe Jesus is God, I tried to believe that, I even attended Orthodox services and studied Orthodox books and teachings. I did that for a whole years, fasted lent and the whole nine yards.

I felt Greek Orthodox in particular are more influenced by their culture then their religion, because the whole time as a catechumen, I felt like an outsider. The Orthodox books were more awesome then the people I met at the church.

When comparing Orthodox Christians and Protestant Christians, I felt Protestant were more friendly, but Orthodox Christianity had more depth in their knowledge of Jesus, what Christianity really meant. I just didn’t see it manifest in their persons.

it is like the Orthodox fathers of the past, understood Jesus more than Protestant Pastors. Protestants know the bible, but I don’t think understand it. I mean really understand in the way Orthodox fathers understood it.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Prophet Muhammad was unselfish, one can see that if one studied his life.

You haven’t studied Islam. it is very difficult to explain things to people who don’t have a context.

Well I have your word against some of the more embarrassing islamic hadiths. For instance, why was it unselfish to marry Aisha a young girl? Or will you tell me that didn’t happen? Or what about his son’s wife because he desired her? I’ll admit, I’m no expert, but I know some things, nor am I willing to accept a mere man as Muhammad being purely unselfish, no mere man is.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I don’t believe Jesus is God, I tried to believe that, I even attended Orthodox services and studied Orthodox books and teachings. I did that for a whole years, fasted lent and the whole nine yards.

I felt Greek Orthodox in particular are more influenced by their culture then their religion, because the whole time as a catechumen, I felt like an outsider. The Orthodox books were more awesome then the people I met at the church.

When comparing Orthodox Christians and Protestant Christians, I felt Protestant were more friendly, but Orthodox Christianity had more depth in their knowledge of Jesus what Christianity really meant. I just didn’t see it manifest in their persons.

Alright.