Could Muhammad of been a prophet?

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Mount_Carmel said:
Ah, the number of times this explanation is proffered.

The Arabic word ‘makara’ means - deceive, plan, plot, scheme’ - in all cases the underlying inference is negative and indeed malevolent.

English translations seek to gloss over the harshest meaning of the word, UNLESS of course it is referring to non-believers/kufrs or apostates. [Yet another case of dualistic ‘reasoning’?]

Even omitting deceiver from the list, what sort of ‘God’ needs to resort to plotting and planning against anything or anyone? Sounds more like the sort of tactics used by those with more limited intellectual resources and knowledge, and perhaps lacking in perfect love and mercy.
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Well Muslims don’t see God as a deceiver, if you want to see God as a deceiver, then go right ahead. If you want to believe Muslims see God as a deceiver than go right ahead.
If that is how you want to understand that.

But I have a right to say, Christians believe Jesus loves the devil, and taught his followers to be **lovers of the devil. ** According to the Gospel, Jesus said “Love thy Enemy” and the Devil is one of their enemies.

If you have a right to say, that Muslims believe that God is a deceiver, I have every right to say Christians love the devil.

The truth of the matter is Muslims don’t believe that and Christians don’t believe that. If you believe you have that right to say that about Muslims, I have that right to say that about Christians.
 
TheSufi said:
It is definitely not a, “somewhere in there,” answer, it is more like a “I’m surprised you don’t know,” answer.
Click to expand...
I did a word search, found nothing.

So you’re not going to tell me? :confused:
(Give me a break too ,
as I am only a revert).
​
 
Judas_Thaddeus said:
Let’s try this…
Nor the Son of man, **that He should repent!!! **Period…
You gotta stop with these false interpretations. We don’t believe Jesus repented or had
anything to repent of, and that’s the POINT! God (the Son) came down to live as a per-
fect man, then die the perfect death, sinless, in payment for the sins of all who believe.
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I thought that Jesus repented when he was baptized by John the Baptist.

After all, he was raised a traditional Jew by his natural father, Joseph. Why shouldn’t he repent if he thought that was appropriate?

I doubt that Jesus felt he was not a typical human as a child. He only realized it during the baptism.
 
nmgauss said:
I thought that Jesus repented when he was baptized by John the Baptist.

After all, he was raised a traditional Jew by his natural father, Joseph. Why shouldn’t he repent if he thought that was appropriate?

I doubt that Jesus felt he was not a typical human as a child. He only realized it during the baptism.
Click to expand...
God: “This is my Son with whom I am well pleased!”
Jesus: “What the heck was that?”
 
nmgauss said:
I thought that Jesus repented when he was baptized by John the Baptist.

After all, he was raised a traditional Jew by his natural father, Joseph. Why shouldn’t he repent if he thought that was appropriate?

I doubt that Jesus felt he was not a typical human as a child. He only realized it during the baptism.
Click to expand...
"Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

And Jesus answering said unto him,

Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness.

Then he suffered him.

And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

~Matthew 3:13-17~

Nothing about repentance!

Jesus didn’t need to repent ~ period!

This thread has once again been derailed…!!

I believe people derail threads so the Mod’s can come in to lock up, therefore terminating all discussions about Mohammads prophet-hood!!!
 
nmgauss said:
I thought that Jesus repented when he was baptized by John the Baptist.

After all, he was raised a traditional Jew by his natural father, Joseph. Why shouldn’t he repent if he thought that was appropriate?

I doubt that Jesus felt he was not a typical human as a child. He only realized it during the baptism.
Click to expand...
Jesus was born sinless and by nature never committed any sin. Jesus humbled himself
which is not the same as repenting. He was baptized but that doesn’t mean he needed
to be baptized. Jesus paid the penalty for sin, but that doesn’t mean Jesus ever sinned.

Click Below:
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a3p3.htm
and scroll down to:
III. THE MYSTERIES OF JESUS’ PUBLIC LIFE
** The baptism of Jesus **

I’m still waiting
for a response
from TheSufi**…**
​
 
Judas_Thaddeus said:
Jesus was born sinless and by nature never committed any sin. Jesus humbled himself
which is not the same as repenting. He was baptized but that doesn’t mean he needed
to be baptized. Jesus paid the penalty for sin, but that doesn’t mean Jesus ever sinned.

Click Below:
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a3p3.htm
and scroll down to:
III. THE MYSTERIES OF JESUS’ PUBLIC LIFE
** The baptism of Jesus **

Are you saying that no sin was committed by Jesus as a child? Or are sins committed by children ignored because they have no idea of the significance of their actions? Nobody knows because there is almost nothing written about Jesus youth. Since Jesus was about 30 years old at the time of the crucifixion, and he had only been pursuing his ministry for only about three years, we know almost nothing about his life as an adolescent and young adult. Even as an adult, I would classify violence in regard to the money changers as a sin.

It’s a pity that the Gospels have not been more historical in their approach.
Click to expand...
 
Mount_Carmel said:
Ah, the number of times this explanation is proffered.

The Arabic word ‘makara’ means - deceive, plan, plot, scheme’ - in all cases the underlying inference is negative and indeed malevolent.

English translations seek to gloss over the harshest meaning of the word, UNLESS of course it is referring to non-believers/kufrs or apostates. [Yet another case of dualistic ‘reasoning’?]

Even omitting deceiver from the list, what sort of ‘God’ needs to resort to plotting and planning against anything or anyone? Sounds more like the sort of tactics used by those with more limited intellectual resources and knowledge, and perhaps lacking in perfect love and mercy.
Click to expand...
Mt Carmel,
. There are parallel verses which describe men even as a spider spinning a web to catch their prey. God is watching us spin webs in which we ultimately entrap ourselves.

“Thus have We placed leaders in every town, its wicked men, to plot (and burrow) therein: but they only plot against their own souls, and they perceive it not.” Quran

. He gives us enough rope to either climb to heaven or hang ourselves. For those who misuse the rope, thinking themselves to be wise while doing evil, God is the most wise.

. Honestly, my friend, I think that you are viewing this with an eye of prejudice, and in doing so, are subjecting yourself to the very thing it talks about.

God bless

.
 
nmgauss said:
Are you saying that no sin was committed by Jesus as a child?
Click to expand...
YES!
nmgauss said:
Or are sins committed by children ignored because they have no idea of the significance of their actions?
Click to expand...
Children sin yes, but Jesus didn’t, though was a child!
nmgauss said:
Nobody knows because there is almost nothing written about Jesus youth. Since Jesus was about 30 years old at the time of the crucifixion, and he had only been pursuing his ministry for only about three years, we know almost nothing about his life as an adolescent and young adult. Even as an adult, I would classify violence in regard to the money changers as a sin.

It’s a pity that the Gospels have not been more historical in their approach.
Click to expand...
Let’s try this…
JESUS IS GOD!!!
GOD CAN’T SIN!!!
​
 
TheSufi said:
Well Muslims don’t see God as a deceiver, if you want to see God as a deceiver, then go right ahead. If you want to believe Muslims see God as a deceiver than go right ahead.
If that is how you want to understand that.

But I have a right to say, Christians believe Jesus loves the devil, and taught his followers to be **lovers of the devil. ** According to the Gospel, Jesus said “Love thy Enemy” and the Devil is one of their enemies.

If you have a right to say, that Muslims believe that God is a deceiver, I have every right to say Christians love the devil.

The truth of the matter is Muslims don’t believe that and Christians don’t believe that. If you believe you have that right to say that about Muslims, I have that right to say that about Christians.
Click to expand...
I think, given the full context of Matthew’s account, and the many other accounts of sinners, that Jesus’ message is love in the fullness of charity/love the sinner, BUT hate the sin. That it is for God and not humanity to judge the sinner’s soul.

‘Forgive us our trespasses AS WE FORGIVE those who trespass against us.’

Jesus according to another Matthew account casts out devils in God’s name.

daler - I do not speak with the ‘eye’ of prejudice, only with an attempt to discern just what is going on - I seek the true way.

ps. I very unusually scored 50:50 in the ‘Sheep and Goats’ test at university. Means my judgment of issues and info is pretty balanced.

He [Jesus] said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is laid to waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand; and if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself, how then will his kingdom stand? And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast him out? Therefore they shall be your judges. But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you”.
 
Mount_Carmel said:
ps. I very unusually scored 50:50 in the ‘Sheep and Goats’ test at university. Means my judgment of issues and info is pretty balanced.

He [Jesus] said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is laid to waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand; and if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself, how then will his kingdom stand? And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast him out? Therefore they shall be your judges. But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you”.
Click to expand...
Using your Balanced Judgement would the above passage also be applicable to Christianity?

Can one truly say that Christianity has not divide against itself?

Regards Tony
 
Mount_Carmel said:
daler - I do not speak with the ‘eye’ of prejudice, only with an attempt to discern just what is going on - I seek the true way.

ps. I very unusually scored 50:50 in the ‘Sheep and Goats’ test at university. Means my judgment of issues and info is pretty balanced.

He [Jesus] said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is laid to waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand; and if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself, how then will his kingdom stand? And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast him out? Therefore they shall be your judges. But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you”.
Click to expand...
Mt Carmel,
. Thanks for your reply. I didn’t mean to say that you are prejudiced, my friend. Sorry if my word choice wasn’t quite right. What I tend to find is that people are sometimes shaping definitions to fit a preconceived notion of how things are, kind of like hammering a square peg into a round hole and making it fit.

. Where verses of the Quran are translated into a fairly wide variety of samples, my understanding is that the complexity of the language and its subtleties are too often lost on the whims of the translators, both individual words and concepts. Therefore, we need to look through a wide lens and compare overall the verses and their meanings in light of other verses.

. What is troubling, of course, is that Islam is tainted by the extremists and the violence done in its name as though Christianity has not done exactly the same thing, and probably more so.

.
 
Judas_Thaddeus said:
YES!

Children sin yes, but Jesus didn’t, though was a child!

Let’s try this…
JESUS IS GOD!!!
GOD CAN’T SIN!!!
​
Click to expand...
What does shouting achieve? Did the child Jesus develop as a normal boy? If so, he sinned as boys do. You are asserting your belief based on the last written Gospel (John) which departs radically from the earlier synoptic Gospels. Only St.John’s Gospel says that Jesus is God, and it was written seventy years after the crucifixion, long after the Jewish Rebellion. The earlier synoptic Gospels say nothing to support this view. According to scholars, Mark was written first; significant parts of Matthew and Luke were copied word for word from Mark. A purported document called “Q” as been detected as another source for Matthew and Luke. Nowhere do they say that Jesus is God. In the synoptic Gospels he may have been considered divine, and may have been accepted as a “Son of God” but nothing more. Even the title,“Son of God”, was applied only after Jesus’ baptism and not before. King David was a son of God, so was King Solomon. So this is not the first time a person has been declared “Son of God”.

Dr. Bart Ehrman, Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina in his book, “Did Jesus Exist?” states,
"Gospel of Mark never mentions that Jesus is God. Most emphatically, Ehrman states, “In Mark Jesus is certainly not God.”
 
nmgauss said:
What does shouting achieve? Did the child Jesus develop as a normal boy? If so, he sinned as boys do. You are asserting your belief based on the last written Gospel (John) which departs radically from the earlier synoptic Gospels. Only St.John’s Gospel says that Jesus is God, and it was written seventy years after the crucifixion, long after the Jewish Rebellion. The earlier synoptic Gospels say nothing to support this view. According to scholars, Mark was written first; significant parts of Matthew and Luke were copied word for word from Mark. A purported document called “Q” as been detected as another source for Matthew and Luke. Nowhere do they say that Jesus is God. In the synoptic Gospels he may have been considered divine, and may have been accepted as a “Son of God” but nothing more. Even the title,“Son of God”, was applied only after Jesus’ baptism and not before. King David was a son of God, so was King Solomon. So this is not the first time a person has been declared “Son of God”.

Dr. Bart Ehrman, Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina in his book, “Did Jesus Exist?” states,
"Gospel of Mark never mentions that Jesus is God. Most emphatically, Ehrman states, “In Mark Jesus is certainly not God.”
Click to expand...
Hey nmgauss. I wanted to start by questioning what evidence you have that a, “Q” document ever existed? In all the history of Christianity there has never been any reference to this document, rather it is entirely hypothetical.

In response to your argument that Jesus had sinned, do you have any proof of early belief that Jesus had ever sinned? It is clear that Paul never believed so:

2 corin 5:21God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Also, the author of Hebrews who clarifies that Jesus is in fact God states that He had no sin:

4:15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are–yet he did not sin.

Now, thirdly in regards to your claim that Mark never makes the claim that Jesus is God you’ll have to do some explaining of a few things; namely Daniel’s vision:

Daniel 7:13 “I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

And when Jesus quotes this:

Mark 14:61But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?“62"I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

The Priest immediately and angrily responds

63The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. 64"You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?" They all condemned him as worthy of death.

The entirety of Jesus’s blasphemy was claiming to be both the, “Son of Man” and “Son of God.” The Jews knew exactly what Jesus was saying and they knew it was certainly blasphemy. And it was if it wasn’t true!
 
nmgauss said:
What does shouting achieve? Did the child Jesus develop as a normal boy? If so, he sinned as boys do. You are asserting your belief based on the last written Gospel (John) which departs radically from the earlier synoptic Gospels. Only St.John’s Gospel says that Jesus is God, and it was written seventy years after the crucifixion, long after the Jewish Rebellion. The earlier synoptic Gospels say nothing to support this view. According to scholars, Mark was written first; significant parts of Matthew and Luke were copied word for word from Mark. A purported document called “Q” as been detected as another source for Matthew and Luke. Nowhere do they say that Jesus is God. In the synoptic Gospels he may have been considered divine, and may have been accepted as a “Son of God” but nothing more. Even the title,“Son of God”, was applied only after Jesus’ baptism and not before. King David was a son of God, so was King Solomon. So this is not the first time a person has been declared “Son of God”.

Dr. Bart Ehrman, Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina in his book, “Did Jesus Exist?” states,
"Gospel of Mark never mentions that Jesus is God. Most emphatically, Ehrman states, “In Mark Jesus is certainly not God.”
Click to expand...
First: Ehrman is Wrong. Less confused now?

You have to use Tota Scripture (ALL OF SCRIPTURE) to define who God is,
who Jesus is, who the Holy Spirit is, and so forth. You haven’t done that.

Are you a Christian? I read in your heading that you
are non-denominational, but what does that mean?

You think the dating of the Gospels is important? Granted, if a gospel was
written in the third century, then we can start questioning it, but when it is
from the FIRST century, then we can trust it.

Now what it seems like you’re asking is for the Bible to call Jesus God
in every sentence (yes I’m exaggerating)! How does that make sense?

What about the Pauline Epistles? WHAT ABOUT THE BOOK OF REVELATION?!

Paul identifies Jesus as the CREATOR.
Revelation identifies Jesus as the First and the Last, which Isaiah identifies with God.
 
dronald said:
Hey nmgauss. I wanted to start by questioning what evidence you have that a, “Q” document ever existed? In all the history of Christianity there has never been any reference to this document, rather it is entirely hypothetical.

In response to your argument that Jesus had sinned, do you have any proof of early belief that Jesus had ever sinned? It is clear that Paul never believed so:
Click to expand...
I said that “Q” was a purported document based on the deductions of German scholars who called it “Quelle”, which means source. The same words were found in both Matthew and Luke, but not in Mark, so they must have been copied from a common source other than Mark.

The Q source (also Q document, Q Gospel, Q Sayings Gospel, or Q from German: Quelle, meaning “source”) is a hypothetical written collection of sayings (logia) of Jesus defined as the “common” material found in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke but not in their other written source, the Gospel of Mark. According to this hypothesis, this ancient text was based on the Oral Tradition of the Early Church.[1]

Along with Markan priority, Q was hypothesized by 1900, and it is one of the foundations of modern gospel scholarship.[2] B. H. Streeter formulated a widely accepted view of Q: that it was a written document (not an oral tradition) composed in Greek; that almost all of its contents appear in Matthew, in Luke, or in both

There is no proof either way on whether Jesus sinned as a boy. His upbringing was purported to be guided by his natural father who probably sinned just like everybody else. It is probable that Jesus had playmates who liked mischief. Since no documentation exists either way, I opt for the most probable, given that Jesus was supposed to be human.
 
tonyfish58 said:
Using your Balanced Judgement would the above passage also be applicable to Christianity?

Can one truly say that Christianity has not divide against itself?

Regards Tony
Click to expand...
Humanity in its fallibility is divided, a case of perceptual ‘Chinese Whispers’ - 'tis the singer, not the song - that is why we need a constant reference point and adjudicator.
 
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