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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
Do you understand that Christians do not consider the humanity of Christ to be God?
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TheSufi
Guest
I think I have a pretty good understanding of Orthodox theology. Not every Christian share Orthodox understanding of how Jesus is God. Orthodox Christian theologians believe God/Man union is hypostatic. 100% God/100% man.Two separate wills. Two separate natures bond together. One of the Church fathers described the union as heat(fire)/iron. Two separate natures uniting, yet remaining distinct and unchanged.
Is that the correct Orthodox understanding of God incarnate?
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dronald
Guest
But the passage you quoted must be binding in your opinion since you quoted it, correct?
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Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
But no, you see, you have to realize that many Jews did in fact understand the Messiah
was likely going to be God, though not everyone agreed, not saying that. Another Thing:
Through the Scriptures, we find that we are no longer bound by the Law, for Jesus came
to fulfill the Entire Law. Yet Another Thing: If you look in real history, it was not Christian-
ity that deviated from Judaism, it was Judaism that deviated the shared-for-a-time path
with Christians. Sometime after Christ died, a false messiah came and led the Jews to
revolt against the Romans, but the Christians wanted no part in it. Why? They had their
Messiah already, the one which the Jewish Israelites at the time were following was a
false Messiah. From then on, after the destruction of the Temple, Judaism saw many
changes to insure its survival, including the change of Scripture, which we can prove,
no more animal sacrifices due to no more Temple, and many other changes.
You are being unfair.
Jesus the Promised Messiah came, fulfilled the Law, became the New Temple, the
Final Sacrifice, took the away the punishments of all who place their soul upon his
deed, which the Muslims refute ever happened. Jesus did everything he was proph-
ecied to do in the Jewish Scriptures, then Muhammad said, “Nope, did not happen
like that,” despite the testimony of the Apostles which we have, and the writings of
the early bishops WHO KNEW THE APOSTLES OF JESUS WHO KNEW JESUS!
What is the Messiah to Islam? Who is Messiah? What does it mean to be
the Messiah? Why did God promise a Messiah and what did God promise
this Messiah would do? I don’t think Islam has a proper answer to that.
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
So long as you understand the humanity is not the divinity, because i find when muslims criticise Christianity for believing God to be a man they talk as if God has changed that his divine essence has been converted from divinity into humanity. But the statement of Chalcedon and the theologians which follow in that tradition represent the majority of Christians, i have no concern to defend the Oriental or assyrian understanding on these issues but the Orthodox Catholic position.
My question for you however is this, Muhammad in the quran tells us that the true believers of Jesus would be victorious. Who were these victorious apostles? These victorious ones who would last untill the day of judgement. I look in history and see no group that matches islam, there are gnostics, tehre are ebionites, there are those against Paul (the early judaizers and proto gnostics) but there are no muslims. The victorious ones seem to have no existed at all, as far as we can tell. Certaintly they were not victorious in any sense. Did Muhammad err?
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Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
That actually isn’t true. There were/are groups who believe in
Jesus, that he was the Messiah even, but denied his divinity,
that’s true, but that third point, believe it or not, actually dis–
qualifies them as Christians.
There were so-called Christians also that believe that God
was One Person, who at one time was the Father, another
time the Son, and still yet another time was the Holy Spirit.
Such are not Christians. Another heretical sect came about
when one bishop Arius said, “Once the Son of God was not,”
meaning that Jesus is a second God, which we can both a–
gree is VERY WRONG. There are many groups that claim
to be Christian, but even you should be able to pick of the
Bible, read it, and realize that some so-called Christians
are in fact NOT Christians, as the Bible is our Manual.
You have the hypostatic union almost correct I think, 100% God, 100% Man, Yes, Yes, but I
don’t think it is two separate wills but two natures, and not separate but different. The Father,
The Son, & The Holy Spirit, each being distinct persons, each has his own mind, will, emo–
tion, etc, yet is the One Being of God. I think that’s where you got separate wills.
Somebody check my on that, I’m only a revert.
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nmgauss
Guest
I am not say anything offensive. I am merely expressing my thoughts on why such things happened and why other things did not happen. Do I have to walk on eggshells for fear of insulting you? Are you thinking of issuing a fatwah against me?
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nmgauss
Guest
Yes:thumbsup:
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nmgauss
Guest
Aren’t you being a tad hostile with that remark?
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tonyfish58
Guest
I gave a reply, you replied in the negative what else was there to say
Would you like to change your mind and give it more thought?
Regards Tony
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Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
You can’t be that ignorant now.
You identified Jesus’ parents as uncaring, knowing nothing beyond
what the Gospels tell of the event, though after taking a look at the
text (just now), the Gospels so clearly portray a reasonable scen–
ario. It could have happened to any family back then in that region.
The very least you can do is be reasonable, which you have not
been, at least ever since I first saw you around here. Ever con–
sider that maybe, just maybe, we are in fact seeing something
that you are missing?
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Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
First, who are you to talk?
Second, the larger size of text is merely an emphasis,
and Third: You do know what “Cop Out” means, right?
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tonyfish58
Guest
Luke 22:42 New International Version (NIV)
42 “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”
Matthew 26:39 New International Version (NIV)
"Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”
Christ is not God but is a Perfect Reflection of God. God the Sun is untouchable and unknowable in essence, thus He projects the rays of the Sun which is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is reflected to mankind through the perfect mirror of Christ.
Thus when you see Christ you see God, but the Mirror is not the Sun. Thus it can be said the Father is Greater than I and at the same time the Father and I are one!
The Trinity does not have to be complicated and unknowable. As Muhammad has Said Jesus the Christ was a Prophet and one should not make the mistake of Calling Christ God!
Regards Tony
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Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
I challenged you to reconcile the Bible and the Baha’i Faith, as the New Testament isI gave a reply, you replied in the negative what else was there to say
Would you like to change your mind and give it more thought?
Regards Tony
perfectly in accord with the Old Testament, and you did not do that. All you gave was
a way to twist the Revelation of John concerning the End of Days to the coming of a
prophet, no further fitting the Baha’i Faith to the Bible. I revealed the error of your use
of Revelations 12&13, and though friendly you’re “Fare Thee Well” was, you clearly
just turned your back and walked away.
I will ask you again, giv-
ing you another chance:
So how are we to tell whether the Bab and Baha’ullah
are not two of those Beasts described in the Book of
Revelation?
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TheSufi
Guest
I don’t believe any prophet of God makes errors. Only our interpretation of their statements have a possibility of being wrong.
Do I know the meaning of every statement of every prophet? NO.
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tonyfish58
Guest
The Bible tells us how, by their Fruits and Prophecy.
This is a thread about Muhammad, so you are invited to look this subject up if you wish
Below is a copy from this link - info.bahai.org/bahaullah-basic-teachings.html
Humanity is now coming of age. It is this that makes possible the unification of the human family and the building of a peaceful, global society. Among the principles which the Bahá’í Faith promotes as vital to the achievement of this goal are;
1 the abandonment of all forms of prejudice
2 assurance to women of full equality of opportunity with men
3 recognition of the unity and relativity of religious truth
4 the elimination of extremes of poverty and wealth
5 the realization of universal education
6 the responsibility of each person to independently search for truth
7 the establishment of a global commonwealth of nations
8 recognition that true religion is in harmony with reason and the pursuit of scientific knowledge
9 the elimination of War and conflict…there are many more
Regards Tony
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Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
Oh what? You’re going to tell me that because Jesus was speaking to the Father thatLuke 22:42 New International Version (NIV)
42 “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”
Matthew 26:39 New International Version (NIV)
"Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”
Christ is not God but is a Perfect Reflection of God. God the Sun is untouchable and unknowable in essence, thus He projects the rays of the Sun which is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is reflected to mankind through the perfect mirror of Christ.
Thus when you see Christ you see God, but the Mirror is not the Sun. Thus it can be said the Father is Greater than I and at the same time the Father and I are one!
The Trinity does not have to be complicated and unknowable. As Muhammad has Said Jesus the Christ was a Prophet and one should not make the mistake of Calling Christ God!
Regards Tony
must mean that Jesus is not God? One person is praying to another person, both are
equally eternal, both are equally the One God, One in Being, with the Holy Spirit too.
Again we’ve discussed how Jesus is God (I don’t think we’ve talked about
the Holy Spirit yet). It has already been discussed concerning the “Great-
er than I” statement, that the Father is of a Greater Office but not in Being.
To most Christians, the Trinity is not complicated at all. We’ll be humble enough to
say that yes it is unknowable, us being limited creatures, but the Trinity is easy to
understand if you just pick up the Bible and listen to what God has to say.
Finally, that point you made on Muhammad, getting back to the thread topic **. . . **
Muhammad’s words automatically place him into what Jesus was warning us all
about regarding False Prophets.
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tonyfish58
Guest
Fruits of Muhammad - muslim-responses.com/Fruits_of_Prophet_Muhammad/Fruits_of_Prophet_Muhammad_
Often time’s people ask what are the fruits of the prophet Muhammad? So here is a list of the accomplishments and fruits of the blessed prophet Muhammad:
-The prophet Muhammad completely succeeded in his mission of getting rid of the overall pagan religion that had poisoned the Arab Hijazi society. He had taken the society and established order including the elite away from the worst imaginable polytheism, this reprehensible polytheism was replaced by pure monotheism, no longer were the 360 idols being worshiped, no longer was any object or person worshiped alongside the true God, rather all worship became sincerely for God alone.
-The prophet Muhammad succeeded in bringing social reforms to a backward people. These were a people who looked down upon the poor as being worthless, in fact the enemies of the prophet Muhammad used to mock him because most of his followers were from the poor, and the pagans used this as their proof against Islam, saying if Islam was the truth then the strong and rich (the elite) would have been following it, not the weak and poor. Islam completely got rid of this backward concept, Islam elevated the status of the poor people, and no longer was this a society that looked down upon the poor, rather they were looked on as equals, and the society took it as an obligation to themselves to help the poor, rather than simply look down on them and leave them as they were.
-The prophet Muhammad elevated the status of women. Prior to Islam the women of the Hijazi society were paraded around as sexual tools, they would dance half naked for the drunk and raving pagans, and would often afterwards have to fornicate with the pagan men. Women also didn’t have a legal right to an inheritance, and often times they wouldn’t have a legal right to a voluntary marriage as well, they would be forced to marry into other family members once the husband died, and at many times were forced to remain in a marriage against their will. Islam gave the women the right to an inheritance, and the right to who she wants to marry, and the right to not be forced to remain in a marriage. On top of that the hideous act of burying daughters alive was ended once and for all, and thanks to that the genocide of generations of females had been averted.
-The prophet Muhammad brought modesty to an immodest people. As stated above, the women used to be paraded half naked singing and dancing, and the people used to perform their religious rites while naked as well! After the prophet Muhammad these people became some of the most modest people ever known. They became a people who covered up while praying, the women became a people who covered their beauty, not displaying it out in the open, rather now it was what is inside her that counts.
-The prophet Muhammad fixed the backward moral character of the people; they were a people who loved alcohol, fornication, and gambling. After the advent of Islam alcohol was gradually forbidden, gambling was outright forbidden, and so was fornication (even given a punishment if committed). They became a people who rather than being drunkards, fornicators, and gamblers, to a people who became religiously committed with observing prayers, fasting, giving charity, and performing several other religious rites.
-The prophet Muhammad got rid of the tribal culture, before the advent of Islam people would look after one another based on tribal belongings, after the advent of Islam it did not matter which tribe you belonged to, you became one community, all equal, and all under protection of each other. It did not matter if you were from Makkah, or Medinah, you would not be discriminated against because of your tribal roots.
-The prophet Muhammad got rid of the backward culture of taking advantage of the weak, and not looking after them properly. Islam brought strict rules on treating orphans and the weak, warning of severe punishments if these groups were mistreated, and if any of their belongings which had been passed down to them had been abused or withheld from them.
-The prophet Muhammad turned a weak and useless people into one of the strongest most disciplined society, a society that became feared and respected by its enemies, and a society that eventually overthrew the oppressive regimes and the two major world empires of the pagan polytheistic Persians and that of the Nazi like Byzantine empire, the events of these began to set into motion during the last years of the prophet Muhammad, and came into complete impact just a few short years after his death.
Regards Tony
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Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
Well if you want to talk about prophecy, there have been a few failed prophecies inThe Bible tells us how, by their Fruits and Prophecy.
This is a thread about Muhammad, so you are invited to look this subject up if you wish
Below is a copy from this link - info.bahai.org/bahaullah-basic-teachings.html
Humanity is now coming of age. It is this that makes possible the unification of the human family and the building of a peaceful, global society. Among the principles which the Bahá’í Faith promotes as vital to the achievement of this goal are;
1 the abandonment of all forms of prejudice
2 assurance to women of full equality of opportunity with men
3 recognition of the unity and relativity of religious truth
4 the elimination of extremes of poverty and wealth
5 the realization of universal education
6 the responsibility of each person to independently search for truth
7 the establishment of a global commonwealth of nations
8 recognition that true religion is in harmony with reason and the pursuit of scientific knowledge
9 the elimination of War and conflict…there are many more
Regards Tony
the Baha’i Faith, and it only takes one to fail. On Fruits, Mormonism and Jehovah’s
Witnesses to great too, but that doesn’t make them true.
Finally, getting back to Muhammad, he is your prophet, maybe an obsolete prophet,
but a prophet hailed among others of other religions, so we can still talk about him,
how the Baha’i reconcile the False Prophet to our True Messiah.
PS
Great goals, awesome ambition, if only the faith was the correct one.
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Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
Fruits, Works, etc, mean nothing without the correct faith.
None of it means anything if I go to Hell for trusting the
goodness of men over the Word of God.
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