Could Muhammad of been a prophet?

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Fruits of Muhammad - muslim-responses.com/Fruits_of_Prophet_Muhammad/Fruits_of_Prophet_Muhammad_

Often time’s people ask what are the fruits of the prophet Muhammad? So here is a list of the accomplishments and fruits of the blessed prophet Muhammad:

-The prophet Muhammad completely succeeded in his mission of getting rid of the overall pagan religion that had poisoned the Arab Hijazi society. He had taken the society and established order including the elite away from the worst imaginable polytheism, this reprehensible polytheism was replaced by pure monotheism, no longer were the 360 idols being worshiped, no longer was any object or person worshiped alongside the true God, rather all worship became sincerely for God alone.

-The prophet Muhammad succeeded in bringing social reforms to a backward people. These were a people who looked down upon the poor as being worthless, in fact the enemies of the prophet Muhammad used to mock him because most of his followers were from the poor, and the pagans used this as their proof against Islam, saying if Islam was the truth then the strong and rich (the elite) would have been following it, not the weak and poor. Islam completely got rid of this backward concept, Islam elevated the status of the poor people, and no longer was this a society that looked down upon the poor, rather they were looked on as equals, and the society took it as an obligation to themselves to help the poor, rather than simply look down on them and leave them as they were.

-The prophet Muhammad elevated the status of women. Prior to Islam the women of the Hijazi society were paraded around as sexual tools, they would dance half naked for the drunk and raving pagans, and would often afterwards have to fornicate with the pagan men. Women also didn’t have a legal right to an inheritance, and often times they wouldn’t have a legal right to a voluntary marriage as well, they would be forced to marry into other family members once the husband died, and at many times were forced to remain in a marriage against their will. Islam gave the women the right to an inheritance, and the right to who she wants to marry, and the right to not be forced to remain in a marriage. On top of that the hideous act of burying daughters alive was ended once and for all, and thanks to that the genocide of generations of females had been averted.

-The prophet Muhammad brought modesty to an immodest people. As stated above, the women used to be paraded half naked singing and dancing, and the people used to perform their religious rites while naked as well! After the prophet Muhammad these people became some of the most modest people ever known. They became a people who covered up while praying, the women became a people who covered their beauty, not displaying it out in the open, rather now it was what is inside her that counts.

-The prophet Muhammad fixed the backward moral character of the people; they were a people who loved alcohol, fornication, and gambling. After the advent of Islam alcohol was gradually forbidden, gambling was outright forbidden, and so was fornication (even given a punishment if committed). They became a people who rather than being drunkards, fornicators, and gamblers, to a people who became religiously committed with observing prayers, fasting, giving charity, and performing several other religious rites.

-The prophet Muhammad got rid of the tribal culture, before the advent of Islam people would look after one another based on tribal belongings, after the advent of Islam it did not matter which tribe you belonged to, you became one community, all equal, and all under protection of each other. It did not matter if you were from Makkah, or Medinah, you would not be discriminated against because of your tribal roots.

-The prophet Muhammad got rid of the backward culture of taking advantage of the weak, and not looking after them properly. Islam brought strict rules on treating orphans and the weak, warning of severe punishments if these groups were mistreated, and if any of their belongings which had been passed down to them had been abused or withheld from them.

-The prophet Muhammad turned a weak and useless people into one of the strongest most disciplined society, a society that became feared and respected by its enemies, and a society that eventually overthrew the oppressive regimes and the two major world empires of the pagan polytheistic Persians and that of the Nazi like Byzantine empire, the events of these began to set into motion during the last years of the prophet Muhammad, and came into complete impact just a few short years after his death.

Regards Tony
Well said.
 
I don’t believe any prophet of God makes errors. Only our interpretation of their statements have a possibility of being wrong.

Do I know the meaning of every statement of every prophet? NO.
I believe that Psalm 83:1-18 appears to clearly break any cosy or tidy Islamic link between Ishmael, God and Islam. There is also no reference or historic proof, outside of later Islamic sources, that Ishmael ever went as far as Mecca.

It seems very possible/likely that the story of Ishmael was cut and pasted into the early Islamic narrative to add gravitas and ‘legitimacy’.
 
Well, Servant, to go through all of what I have gleaned and mulled over through what is a number of decades would probably take rather a long time - but the nub of the matter seems to focus around, did Jesus or Muhammad have/show any of their ‘own voice’, and if so did it ever appear unreasonable or malicious. Looking at Jesus’ life there is nothing that may be argued as purely selfishly human and with tones of maliciousness or indulgence. Regrettably, there is much about Muhammad narrated in the Islamic texts that does not smack of the Divine or indeed of ‘innocent’ self humanity.

I just cannot see any prophet or righteous person of God continuing to indulge some of the things Muhammad appears to have continued to indulge in - and worse still, continuously awarding himself the golden ‘get out of jail’ card of claiming 'Allah says it is OK for him to act and instruct in ways deemed highly morally and ethically questionable for anyone else. A sort of ‘do as I say, don’t do as I do’ scenario it seems.

Via con Dios.

ps. I think Judas Thaddius is referring to the Prophets, not the whole Talmud.
What does showing their “own voice” mean?

Also, how reliable is this “own voice” as having come from the mouth of Jesus or Muhammad? And every action belonged as such to whomever?

The Hadiths, as I said, and as is recognized by Islamic scholars are unreliable in their accuracy. So discount them. Do you have a reliable source for the supposed “own voice” of Muhammad?

Finally, Catholicism stresses so much reverence and esteem on the Church. Why does the “do as I say, don’t do as I so” hallmark not apply to the Church?

So 2 things Carmel, if you may: 🙂
  1. Show me reliable evidence that Muhammad did what you deem to be unsightly in the eyes of God.
  2. Show me why this method of determining the status of Godhead does not apply to the Church?
 
Well if you want to talk about prophecy, there have been a few failed prophecies in
the Baha’i Faith, and it only takes one to fail. On Fruits, Mormonism and Jehovah’s
Witnesses to great too, but that doesn’t make them true.

Finally, getting back to Muhammad, he is your prophet, maybe an obsolete prophet,
but a prophet hailed among others of other religions, so we can still talk about him,
how the Baha’i reconcile the False Prophet to our True Messiah.

PS
Great goals, awesome ambition, if only the faith was the correct one.
“A few failed prophecies”. Name one that is not from I do not like a Baha’i Site 😉

Matter of fact the only Garbage any one will dig up about Muhammad and any of Gods Prophets is from I do not like them site 🤷 😊

Regards Tony
 
Fruits, Works, etc, mean nothing without the correct faith.
None of it means anything if I go to Hell for trusting the
goodness of men over the Word of God.
Is not God the correct Faith 🤷

Is this not what Christ was showing us, to know and to love God

May we all achieve that Love, the whole purpose of our lives, Gods bounty to us.

One does not Give away ones Faith in Loving God.

Regards Tony
 
That was a cut the Pine Tree off at the roots statement! 😉

Muhammad was the Seal of the Prophets, His Mission was one one hand to bring Man back to God & warn Mankind that the Judgment was coming and on the other hand to gather all the war like tribes and people into a great Nation.

The Koran is a Testament to the success of this Mission. Muhammad thus sealed the Prophetic Cycle of God and prepared the way for the Fulfillment of Prophecy.

Regards Tony
 
“A few failed prophecies”. Name one that is not from I do not like a Baha’i Site 😉

Matter of fact the only Garbage any one will dig up about Muhammad and any of Gods Prophets is from I do not like them site 🤷 😊

Regards Tony
I what use the kind of site you speak of, but I’ll instead use other
sources, might have a harder time checking, but here you go:
“The century has come when all religions shall be unified.”
“The dispensation is at hand when all nations shall enjoy
the blessings of international peace.”
  • `Abdu’l Baha
    Fanaticism: A World-Devouring Fire
    pg.105
“It (Isaiah 2:4) means that fierce and contending religions, hostile creeds
and divergent beliefs will reconcile and associate, notwithstanding their
former hatreds and antagonism. Through the liberalism of human attitude
demanded in this radiant century they will blend together in perfect
fellowship and love.”
  • `Abdu’l Baha
    A World in Turmoil: A Baha’i Perspective
    pg. 30
The twentieth century which `Abdu’l Baha was speaking of came and went,
1993 was the first World Trade Center attack, end of the twentieth century,
beginning of the twenty-first, second year of it, that time a tragically suc―
cessful second attack on the World Trade Center, no peace, no harmony,
no religious unity (quite the contrary).
 
I believe that Psalm 83:1-18 appears to clearly break any cosy or tidy Islamic link between Ishmael, God and Islam. There is also no reference or historic proof, outside of later Islamic sources, that Ishmael ever went as far as Mecca.

It seems very possible/likely that the story of Ishmael was cut and pasted into the early Islamic narrative to add gravitas and ‘legitimacy’.
There appears to be a debate or disagreement between Christian and Muslim scholars with regards to Ishmael being in Mecca or not. I haven’t done enough research on the subject to argue one way or the other.

But there is pre-Islamic (pre-Muhammad) reference to Arabs being descendent of Ishmael.

**So Arabs are descendents of Ishmael. ** For pre-Islamic reference to this refer to Josephus, Antiquities, Book 1, Chapter 12:
  1. Now in a little time Abraham had a son by Sarah, as God had foretold to him, whom he named Isaac, which signifies Laughter. And indeed they so called him, because Sarah laughed when God said that she should bear a son, she not expecting such a thing, as being past the age of child-bearing, for she was ninety years old, and Abraham a hundred; so that this son was born to them both in the last year of each of those decimal numbers. And they circumcised him upon the eighth day and from that time the Jews continue the custom of circumcising their sons within that number of days.** But as for the Arabians, they circumcise after the thirteenth year, because Ismael, the founder of their nation, who was born to Abraham of the concubine, was circumcised at that age;** concerning whom I will presently give a particular account, with great exactness.
ccel.org/ccel/josephus/works/files/ant-1.htm
 
That was a cut the Pine Tree off at the roots statement! 😉

Muhammad was the Seal of the Prophets, His Mission was one one hand to bring Man back to God & warn Mankind that the Judgment was coming and on the other hand to gather all the war like tribes and people into a great Nation.

The Koran is a Testament to the success of this Mission. Muhammad thus sealed the Prophetic Cycle of God and prepared the way for the Fulfillment of Prophecy.

Regards Tony
Everything was fulfilled in Jesus Christ. He is the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end.
 
The beginning is correct, Jesus is God and by say-
ing that we say that he is the Supreme BEING, be-
yond which there is no other.
“Supreme Being beyond which there is no other” ??
Immediately, the “distinct” Person of the Father comes to mind who is, as Jesus categorically and flat-out proclaimed is “greater than I”
So, your opening statement is incorrect, my friend. Can you provide a correction to my understanding?
Yet Jesus assured us that the Holy Spirit (Third person
of God sent by the Father and the Son, by the way)
would guide his Church. You discount that, which
kinda puts you in a bind there.
Again, can you please show me the reference to this, and we can discuss 🙂
I’m not in any binds with you Judas, nor am I here with an intention to “bind” you, I am here to have HONEST discussion, with humility. I am happy to be in a bind, if valid discourse is presented…so far I haven’t seen any valid reasoning to demonstrate that Jesus is God, and not a Messenger 🤷
I do happen to believe something like that, but
I don’t believe God would tell us one thing and
then in the next instance reveal something en-
tirely to the contrary. You do, however.
…as I say, as parents, what I teach to my 1 year old child is different and often contradicting to me 15 year old child.

When your child goes through their first ever Christmas, are you sitting down with them talking about the fact that Father Chrsitmas does not exist?

The Father teaches in the same way…it’s called capacity building. As children we learn values and truths through stories. So did humanity, when it was a child…we are now maturing…
Here it is: Jesus NEVER explicitly uttered the three words “I AM GOD,” but Jesus
did identify himself with the I AM that spoke to Moses. He declared that he is the
First and the Last, Alpha & Omega. We can show various passages describing
Jesus as the Creator. You already reject it, but we’ve shown John 1:1, which if
you read it in the original Greek, demonstrate how Jesus is God Eternal by
whom all things are made.
This is where I feel Christianity has swayed away from the Truth.
Were Christians to study “thoroughly” the Islamic AND Baha’i Writings, one would soon come to the conclusion that while Jesus was existent BEFORE time, and is an eternal Being, God is “OUTSIDE” of eternity and “timelessness”…God CREATED eternality and timelessness, a realm which Jesus resides at the right hand of His Father, Baha’u’llah, with all the other Prophets circling in adoration…
But then you can be like, “The Father was speaking through Jesus,”
“John wasn’t written by Jesus,” “Why trust Paul, he isn’t Jesus,” and
so on and so on and so on.
I TRUST Paul, where did I indicate otherwise?
I do not believe Paul quoted Jesus as saying “I am God”…🤷
God gave us his word, and by the Holy Spirit we
have the correct understanding of the Scriptures
in relevance to the Nature of God.
Again, can you please provide a quote so that we can discuss 🙂

God bless! 🙂
 
I what use the kind of site you speak of, but I’ll instead use other
sources, might have a harder time checking, but here you go:
“The century has come when all religions shall be unified.”
“The dispensation is at hand when all nations shall enjoy
the blessings of international peace.”
  • `Abdu’l Baha
    Fanaticism: A World-Devouring Fire
    pg.105
“It (Isaiah 2:4) means that fierce and contending religions, hostile creeds
and divergent beliefs will reconcile and associate, notwithstanding their
former hatreds and antagonism. Through the liberalism of human attitude
demanded in this radiant century they will blend together in perfect
fellowship and love.”
  • `Abdu’l Baha
    A World in Turmoil: A Baha’i Perspective
    pg. 30
The twentieth century which `Abdu’l Baha was speaking of came and went,
1993 was the first World Trade Center attack, end of the twentieth century,
beginning of the twenty-first, second year of it, that time a tragically suc―
cessful second attack on the World Trade Center, no peace, no harmony,
no religious unity (quite the contrary).
Judas, firstly, as I have already pointed out, Abdu’l-Baha was not a Prophet. He never prophecied anything…He was a Servant to humanity, and to the Cause of His Father, and a wonderful Servant at that, so much so that His services were acknowledged by the Catholic Faith)

Does that make any sense to you at all?

The above quote you provided continues:
"The age has dawned when human fellowship will become a reality.
The century has come when all religions shall be unified.
The dispensation is at hand when all nations shall enjoy the blessings of international peace.
The cycle has arrived when racial prejudice will be abandoned by tribes and peoples of the world.
The epoch has begun wherein all native lands will be conjoined in one great human family.
For all mankind shall dwell in peace and security beneath the shelter of the great tabernacle of the one living God. "
Abdu’l-Baha on several occasions refers to the “century” while also referring to the age, or the cycle, or the era. My understanding is that He was not referring to “literally” the 19th century…

Please let us be sincere in our deliberations…
 
“Supreme Being beyond which there is no other” ??
Immediately, the “distinct” Person of the Father comes to mind who is, as Jesus categorically and flat-out proclaimed is “greater than I”
So, your opening statement is incorrect, my friend. Can you provide a correction to my understanding?
Gladly: It has been said multiple times that when Jesus said that the Father is greater
that he is, that he isn’t speaking in terms of ontological nature, like the Father is more
Divine than Jesus, but rather the Father is Greater in Office, in the Role of Salvation.
The Father, Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit are different PERSONS, but is the same
BEING of One God (Person and Being are two different categories of existence).
Again, can you please show me the reference to this, and we can discuss 🙂
I’m not in any binds with you Judas, nor am I here with an intention to “bind” you, I am here to have HONEST discussion, with humility. I am happy to be in a bind, if valid discourse is presented…so far I haven’t seen any valid reasoning to demonstrate that Jesus is God, and not a Messenger 🤷
How can I give you anything that proves that Jesus is God when you’re going to reinterpret it anyway? I give you John 1:1, you say not words of Jesus, give you
Isaiah/Revelation on “The First & The Last” applied to Jesus, you say that it was
the Father speaking through Jesus. I could give you verses that assert that Jesus
is in fact the very Creator himself, that all things exist because he brought them in-
to existence, but I don’t know if you already have a different interpretation unsub-
stantiated by all the language and biblical scholars.
This is where I feel Christianity has swayed away from the Truth.
Were Christians to study “thoroughly” the Islamic AND Baha’i Writings, one would soon come to the conclusion that while Jesus was existent BEFORE time, and is an eternal Being, God is “OUTSIDE” of eternity and “timelessness”…God CREATED eternality and timelessness, a realm which Jesus resides at the right hand of His Father, Baha’u’llah, with all the other Prophets circling in adoration…
Metaphysically that doesn’t work. God created all things, yes,
but timelessness is empty of Creation, so you can’t make the
point that "God created timelessness because timelessness
does not exist, that’s the point of “-LESS-”.
(Did you just call the Father Baha’u’kkah?)
The Moment God Created, Time then Existed. No Creation before that. No one was in the Beginning with God unless HE IS GOD. Listen: In the Beginning was the Word, &
the Word was With God, and the Word Was God (John1:1). None of the other the so-
-called prophets were in the beginning with God.
 
I what use the kind of site you speak of, but I’ll instead use other
sources, might have a harder time checking, but here you go:
“The century has come when all religions shall be unified.”
“The dispensation is at hand when all nations shall enjoy
the blessings of international peace.”
  • `Abdu’l Baha
    Fanaticism: A World-Devouring Fire
    pg.105
“It (Isaiah 2:4) means that fierce and contending religions, hostile creeds
and divergent beliefs will reconcile and associate, notwithstanding their
former hatreds and antagonism. Through the liberalism of human attitude
demanded in this radiant century they will blend together in perfect
fellowship and love.”
  • `Abdu’l Baha
    A World in Turmoil: A Baha’i Perspective
    pg. 30
The twentieth century which `Abdu’l Baha was speaking of came and went,
1993 was the first World Trade Center attack, end of the twentieth century,
beginning of the twenty-first, second year of it, that time a tragically suc―
cessful second attack on the World Trade Center, no peace, no harmony,
no religious unity (quite the contrary).
You are looking for a tree when only the seed has been planted 😉 The seed will become the tree. It was last century that the seed was planted, it has grown and emerged from the soil.

Instead of looking for what is not! Look for what is;) There are many signs that this is true from outside the Baha’i Faith.

In the Catholic Faith - Dignitatis Humanae (Latin: Of the Dignity of the Human Person[1]) is the Second Vatican Council’s Declaration on Religious Freedom - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dignitatis_Humanae

The Transcendent Unity of Religions - amazon.com/Transcendent-Unity-Religions-Quest-Book/dp/0835605876

This book clearly demonstrates the unity of all religions, although being different in their forms, from a metaphysical point of view.As such it helps to understand all religions, and their extrinsic orthodoxy, putting an end to the quarrels among some exponents of these religions, who feel to prove the validity of their religion, they must disprove the other religions.

A proposal for unity among religions - sites.google.com/a/kent.edu/jwattles/home/comparative-religious-thought/methods-in-the-study-of-religion/a-proposal-for-unity-among-religions

Despite the continued presence of religious fanaticism and bigotry in the word, the twentieth century has witnessed a significant growth in religious tolerance - biographyonline.net/spiritual/religious-tolerance.html

Regards Tony
 
Everything was fulfilled in Jesus Christ. He is the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end.
Everything does not consider this passage and that the current thought that the Church may have about that passage may be incorrect and this is why they Missed Muhammad! 😊

John 16:12-15 New International Version (NIV)

12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

Regards Tony
 
Gladly: It has been said multiple times that when Jesus said that the Father is greater
that he is, that he isn’t speaking in terms of ontological nature, like the Father is more
Divine than Jesus, but rather the Father is Greater in Office, in the Role of Salvation.
Two things Judas:
  1. Can you show me where this has been mentioned “multiple times”? and,
  2. Can you show where this understanding was first written about please? How did this interpretation of the quote from Jesus come about, and why?
Thanks
 
That passage is referring to the Holy Spirit who guides the Catholic Church, not Mohammad.
 
Judas, firstly, as I have already pointed out, Abdu’l-Baha was not a Prophet. He never prophecied anything…He was a Servant to humanity, and to the Cause of His Father, and a wonderful Servant at that, so much so that His services were acknowledged by the Catholic Faith)
Does that make any sense to you at all?
The above quote you provided continues:
Abdu’l-Baha on several occasions refers to the “century” while also referring to the age, or the cycle, or the era. My understanding is that He was not referring to “literally” the 19th century…
Please let us be sincere in our deliberations…
So on the one hand, he did not prophecy anything, but later you defend his
words as though they were prophecy? What if Abdu’l-Baha was/is wrong a-
bout all the peace, fellowship, unity, etc?
 
How can I give you anything that proves that Jesus is God when you’re going to reinterpret it anyway? I give you John 1:1, you say not words of Jesus, give you
Isaiah/Revelation on “The First & The Last” applied to Jesus, you say that it was
the Father speaking through Jesus. I could give you verses that assert that Jesus
is in fact the very Creator himself, that all things exist because he brought them in-
to existence, but I don’t know if you already have a different interpretation unsub-
stantiated by all the language and biblical scholars.
Dear friend, when it is asserted by a third party that Jesus was “The First and the Last” it is an ASSUMPTION that this refers to God.

If Jesus talks about Himself as being the Creator of the universe (which He doesn’t) it is an ASSUMPTION that this means that He is God.

Let me reassert. I TRULY 100% BELIEVE THAT JESUS CREATED THE UNIVERSE…

BUT HE IS NOT GOD…
(its now up to you and your relationship with Jesus and His Father to go out there and try and work out why, and how I could assert such a thing)

.
 
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