Could Muhammad of been a prophet?

[IgnatianPhilo]

May I also add that the Revelation of Muhammad has no need to be within the context of the New Testament.

The Old Testament was not given in the context of any previous religious Books.

Both the Quran and the Old testament were set within a creation of a Nation context. The Israelites and the Arabians.

The fulfilment of both these religious Teachings were found in Christianity and the Baha’i Faith.

If one were to look objectively one would see this similarity in the Jewish and Islamic Faiths, and the “advancement” and “fulfilment” seen within the Christian and Baha’i religions…

All religions are perfectly valid within their own setting and context.

**“This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future” **- Baha’u’llah

.

See when I read the words of Jesus in the new testament I see him saying he has fulfilled all things and we are waiting for his return. This has been brought up before but what did Muhammad bring that Christianity was lacking? This is afterall a thread about Muhammad and his status as a prophet, as far as I can see he brought back the law and tried to shackle it to us, circumcision, some sort of Kosher system, a system of ritual purity and etc.

Simply claiming these religions fulfill something in Christianity is not good enough, you need to demonstrate what was lacking in Jesus Christ that was there in Muhammad. What was lacking in the salvation of Jesus Christ? No doubt you will say a system of world government by which we can move towards Utopia. Did Muhammad really bring a system of government that was the best thing on earth until your prophet came along? I would dare say Ghengis Khan and the governmental systems of Europe and America beat anything islam had produced and they weren’t a result of your prophet.

 

[Servant19]

Note: I started writing this response on Friday, but got busy over the weekend and didn’t get a chance to finish it until now, so if this has already been addressed since then, sorry.

Your difficulties are understandable and your questions are reasonable. The answer lies in an explanation of the Christian understanding of God as Trinity and further the hypostatic union of the two natures of Jesus.

First however, I think it is incumbent to explain that Christians use the term “God” in different ways and depending on the context it can mean different things. I will try to point this out as I go through my explanation.

Christians believe in one God. We believe that this one God is triune (consisting of three in one) in nature, that is to say that the one God exists in three co-equal and co-eternal persons, namely the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each of these persons is fully and completely God, meaning that the Father is 100% God, the Son is 100% God, and the Holy Spirit is 100% God. At the same time, however, each person is separate and distinct from the other two, meaning that the Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit; the Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son. These are the basics of the Trinity, but we have to get more nuanced to even begin to grasp what these basics mean (and even when we understand the Trinity to the full extent that our limited human minds can understand it, we’ve only just begun to scratch the surface of the fullness of the truth.)

Here is where I should clarify how when Christians use the term “God” we can mean different things. Christians often refer to the Father, the First Person of the Trinity, simply as “God.” However, when we say Jesus is God, we do not mean that Jesus is the Father. Rather, we mean that Jesus is divine. He is the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity. He is the same God that the Father is, but mysteriously, in a way that we cannot understand, he is not the Father.

Now, Christians believe that in addition to being fully God, Jesus was also fully man. We believe Jesus has two natures, a divine nature and a human nature. We believe that Jesus has existed in his divine nature from all eternity as the Son, the second person of the Trinity. We believe that when Jesus came down to earth he kept this divine nature but also took on a human nature so that he truly became man, one of us. Therefore we say that Jesus is at the same time both 100% God and 100% man. These two natures exist in perfect harmony, yet remain distinct from one another. We refer to this existence as the hypostatic union. We further believe that because Jesus has two natures, he also has two wills, a divine will and a human will. Again, as with his two natures, the divine will and the human will exist in perfect harmony, yet remain distinct from one another. This is why, while Jesus is God, he says things such as “Not My will, but Thine…” In such instances, he is speaking in his human nature and referring to his human will, while at the same time still retaining his divine nature and divine will.

So while it may sound like “now I’m god, now I’m not,” it really is “now I’m God, and I’m not.”

Nice post LittleMiss

May I ask you when you say that Christians do not mean that Jesus is God as in He’s not the Father, but rather that Jesus is “divine”, what do you mean by “divine”?

Does divine mean that what He speaks is the Words of God? what He does is the Will of God?

 

[Servant19]

The Jesus of the Bible is the Creator, why do you think Muslims don’t like Paul’s letters?

Don’t worry, the Muslims don’t have a full understanding on the nature of any if the Prophets either. Remember my comparison between the Arabian tribes and Israelites?

God advanced those nations…notice I said ADVANCED

They were brought out of ignorance to worship an Almighty God “through” a Prophet or Messenger. Christianity and the Bahai Faith provided a “fuller” understanding of that relationship.

Judaism AND Islam refuse to acknowledge the extent of the full divine nature of these Prophets.

Please realise that in this respect Christianity and the Bahai Faith are very much aligned. The reality is however that Christianity, due to various political and crisis circumstances have slightly modified the Truth and that’s where the differences arise. They are small differences, but tangible, but if we look at what those who walked, talked and ate with Jesus wrote in the Gospels, we will see the Truth

The Jesus of the Bible, as foreseen in the Old Testament, is God Himself.

The Jesus of the Bible is the Messiah who saves us from our sins, not the Jesus of the Qur’an.

The Jesus of the Old Testament was cursed according to Deuteronomy, amongst so many other unfulfilled prophecies. It’s not as clear cut as you dream for it to be, since there are, and have been so many Jews through two millennia who have studied Jesus claims and rejected Him.

It’s similarly not so clear cut with Baha’u’llahs coming.

You think about that for while brother

 

[Servant19]

Judas Thaddeus;:

Christianity fulfills Judaism, follows after Judaism, yes.
The same with the Baha’i Faith and Islam, I’m sure.
But for the Baha’i Faith and Islam even to be true, they must follow after Christianity which neither of them do.

Well my friend Buddhism fulfills Hinduism. For Christianity and Judaism to even be true, they must follow after Buddhism, which neither of them do

Do you see how God works to “advance” His children, sometimes contradicting, but if you lived there at the time, His Message was the PERFECT Message at the time.

Contradictions only occur when a parent is educating children according to their capacity to understand.

I pray that God will enable you to understand, after which His whole planet of peoples will be seen as one.

The world is dying, and we are regurgitating the same old , FAILED, methods to save it. Children are crying, no food in their mouths for DECADES, and everyone thinks it’s Godly to simply try and feed them, while they continue to die.

Why are you waiting? Are you waiting for Jesus to come and sort it all out? These children are dying TODAY… TODAY

Everyone is wandering in a delusion looking for an answer and God has given it to them, but still they reject Him. Why?

Because they don’t call Jesus by the name WE want Him to be called…
Meanwhile, the extreme poverty continues…

 

[daler]

I am not aware of “multiple times” in relation to what I was talking about, but Christians are
not interested in quantitative evidence…

Consider also where Paul tells the Philippians to be like minded, to let “this mind”
be in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who being in the FORM of GOD humbled
himself, even unto death…

Judas,
. I’ve been gone for a couple of days and have been catching up on all the chatter on this thread. Whew! Talk about chewing the fat…

. Couple of comments: Although not what you intend above by “times”, the prophecies of Daniel that refer to “time, times, and a half” are very well researched by a vast array of scholars who uniformly refer to each “time” as 360 days, with each day to mean a “year” in prophecy. Note Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:5, 6

. This post is in follow up, by the way, to your request awhile back for Biblical proofs substantiating the claims of the Bab and Baha’u’llah in the Bible, so I’m just trying to keep my promise to you to further elaborate.

. Briefly, the Baha’i position is largely in agreement with the Adventist scholars who, prior to 1844, were recognizing that these various “times” prophecies pointed to the year of 1844, but failed to recognize the significance of the intersection of the year 1260 AH coinciding with that year. What is relevant is that Daniel had his great vision while in Elam, in the city of Susa, and that Jeremiah the Prophet also referred to Elam in verse 49: 36 on in reference to the last days:

. “There shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come…”

. “And I (the Lord) will set My throne in Elam, and will destroy from thence the king and the princes, saith the Lord…”

. Elam is today the SW portion of Iran, where all this stuff hit the fan that is still going on today. Shiraz is the city where the Bab declared Himself to be the Qaim in 1260 AH, or 1844 AD, which is exactly 2300 years after Artaxerxes issued the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, which Daniel established as the starting date of the prophecy, which began in 457 BC, ending in 1844 (there was no year zero, thus we add one)

. That this starting date is accurate is confirmed as well by the 70 weeks (of years) prophecy when “Messiah shall be cut off”, or the crucifixion of Christ, in 33 or 34 AD, or 490 years after 457 BC. Please read Daniel to familiarize yourself with the 62 weeks, etc, and for much better context than I can put it in without a bunch of cut and paste, please apply your mental acuity to a few relevant chapters from Some Answered Questions, if you wish to connect the dots better and understand the prophetic dates from the Baha’i perspective. Not only do they make sense regarding the appearance of the Bab and Baha’u’llah, but clearly demonstrate a starting point which begins with Muhammad, thus validating the religion of Islam.

. Some Answered Questions (particularly Chp 10 thru 13 pertain to this theme)

reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/

. As Revelation uses the same numbers as Daniel, the conclusion is the same. The year 1260 AH relates to the fulfillment of time prophecies, and points to the Beast, which is a direct reference to the Ummayyads usurping power from Ali, and outwardly ruling the religion of Islam. As the corruption of the religion of Muhammad was prophesied, even as he betrayal of Christ by Judas, it was inevitable and foretold. To make sense of the times prophecies, Islam and their calendar cannot be ignored.

. Subsequently, the years 1280 AH and 1290 correspond to the public declaration of Baha’u’llah in the year 1863 AD, or 1280 AH, which year is exactly 1290 years after the public declaration of Muhammad in the year 613 AD (ten years prior to the Hijira) All three figures are fulfilled relative not only to Daniel and Revelation, but to Islam. Thus the Old Testament, the New Testament, and the Quran are bound together in prophecy.

. I hope that you will appreciate that this is not some idle speculation on the part of the Baha’is, attempting to conveniently convert some figures to this Revelation and give it credence. It is infinitely more than some misconstrued attempt, and the relevance of such “time prophecies” is not unique. There are further “place” prophecies, as well, beyond Elam.

. I will separately post some more Bible quotations relevant to your questions referring to the coming of the Bab and Baha’u’llah, and hope that in the broader understanding of the relevance to this particular thread: “Could Muhammad have been a Prophet?” this is all seen as relevant, for in proving Baha’i credibility, Islam is automatically proven.

. Thank you for your courtesy and patience.

.

 

[daler]

Consider also where Paul tells the Philippians to be like minded, to let “this mind”
be in you that was also in Christ Jesus…

Just read the Bible.

Judas,
. in order for all the disparate peoples of divergent thought to be unified into the One Fold and the One Shepherd, at the time of His coming, people of all ends of the earth will be assembled. Further Bible references to this:

. Micah 7:15 “According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I show unto him marvelous things.”

. This refers to 40 years, which is the duration of Baha’u’llah’s ministry, beginning in 1852 until His ascension in 1892. Note also the fulfillment of Noah’s prophecy that “It shall rain for 40 days and nights”, interpreted to be 40 years of non-stop Revelation from the Promised One.

. Micah 7:12 “In that day He shall come to thee even from Assyria and from the fortified cities and from the fortress even to the river and from sea to sea and from mountain to mountain”

. Not by His own will, Baha’u’llah was exiled from the ancient land of Assyria from Constantinople to Akka, from the Black Sea to the Mediterranean Sea, from the mountains of Sulaymaniyeh to Mt Carmel. That is, during His 40 years of banishment from the land of His birth, Elam, to these fortified cities, the seas, and the mountains, from east to west, also in fulfillment of Christ’s prophecy: . “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” Mat 24

. Jesus, when asked about His Return, specifically said “Look to Daniel the Prophet” Hence, the importance of the time prophecies.

. Baha’is believe that certain references to God’s Glory, or “the Glory of God”, are actual references to the coming of Baha’u’llah, which translates into English as “The Glory of God”, or “The Glory of the Lord”, or “The Glory of the Father”, (Baha means Glory, Light, and Splendor). The most common translation would be the first, Glory of God ( in Arabic is the word for God is Allah).

. Ezekial 43: "Then the man brought me to the gate facing east, 2 and I saw the Glory of the God (Baha’u’llah) of Israel coming from the east. His voice was like the roar of rushing waters, and the land was radiant with his glory. 3 The vision I saw was like the vision I had seen when he[a] came to destroy the city and like the visions I had seen by the Kebar River, and I fell facedown. 4 The glory of the Lord (Baha’u’llah) entered the temple through the gate facing east. 5 Then the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court, and the glory of the Lord filled the temple.

. Neh. 3:29 “…the Gate that looketh toward the east: And the glory of the Lord (Baha’u’llah) came into the house by the way of the Gate (The Bab) whose prospect is toward the east.” (Elam)

. “And it came to pass, when the priests came out of the holy place, that the cloud filled the house of the Lord,11 so that the priests could not continue ministering because of the cloud; for the Glory of the Lord (Baha’u’llah) filled the house of the Lord”. I Kings 8:10-11

… “For the Son of man shall come in the Glory of his Father (Baha’u’llah) with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works” Matt 16:27

. "Now when they heard this, they were cut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at him. But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the Glory of God (Baha’u’llah) and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”… Acts 7:54…

Habakuk 2:14 “For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Glory of the Lord (Baha’u’llah) as the waters cover the sea.”

. Revelation 21:23-25

. “And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God (Baha’u’llah) gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there.”

Judas,
. One can say that none of these things are by themselves sufficient evidences, but taken together, with numerous other prophecies, taken not only from the Old and New Testament, but from other religions of the world, continue to make a case which just keeps on supporting the claims of the Baha’is that in fact the Bab and Baha’u’llah are the fulfillment.
.

 

[Servant19]

One should really ask of himself or herself the question:

How does this passage:

… “For the Son of man shall come in the Glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works” Matt 16:27

…relate to me?

Am I doing the works of God today? Or is the works that I am doing to no effect upon world suffering, really the works of God for today’s dying humanity?

.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Don’t worry, the Muslims don’t have a full understanding on the nature of any if the Prophets either. Remember my comparison between the Arabian tribes and Israelites?

God advanced those nations…notice I said ADVANCED

They were brought out of ignorance to worship an Almighty God “through” a Prophet or Messenger. Christianity and the Bahai Faith provided a “fuller” understanding of that relationship.

Judaism AND Islam refuse to acknowledge the extent of the full divine nature of these Prophets.

Please realise that in this respect Christianity and the Bahai Faith are very much aligned. The reality is however that Christianity, due to various political and crisis circumstances have slightly modified the Truth and that’s where the differences arise. They are small differences, but tangible, but if we look at what those who walked, talked and ate with Jesus wrote in the Gospels, we will see the Truth.

Christianity and the Baha’i Faith are so not aligned. They preach differ-
ent Gospels, different Jesuses, and ultimately different Gods. And why
do you say “**Judaism AND Islam **refuse to acknowledge the extent of
the full divine nature of these Prophets,” while holding Christianity in
such high esteem? That is very suspicious flattery.

The Jesus of the Old Testament was cursed according to Deuteronomy, amongst so many other unfulfilled prophecies. It’s not as clear cut as you dream for it to be, since there are, and have been so many Jews through two millennia who have studied Jesus claims and rejected Him.

It’s similarly not so clear cut with Baha’u’llahs coming.

You think about that for while brother

How was Jesus cursed?

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Well my friend Buddhism fulfills Hinduism. For Christianity and Judaism to even be true, they must follow after Buddhism, which neither of them do

Well we don’t claim succession
from Hinduism, Zoroastrianism,
or Buddhism, so your point
there is void.

Do you see how God works to “advance” His children, sometimes contradicting, but if you lived there at the time, His Message was the PERFECT Message at the time.

And there you lost. The true God is not contradicting.

Let me raise the first part of my response again: Neither Judaism nor Christianity claim
to be successions of any prior religion. The Baha’i Faith claims all major world religions
as its predecessors, without real justification.

 

[daler]

Well we don’t claim succession
from Hinduism, Zoroastrianism,
or Buddhism, so your point
there is void.

And there you lost. The true God is not contradicting.

Let me raise the first part of my response again: Neither Judaism nor Christianity claim
to be successions of any prior religion. The Baha’i Faith claims all major world religions
as its predecessors, without real justification.

Judas,
. In your own eyes, there was succession from Adam to Noah to Abraham to Moses to Jesus, right? And Muslims accept all of this and believe that Muhammad was the last in this succession, right? And Baha’is view the coming of the Bab and Baha’u’llah as a continuation of this succession of Prophets beginning with Adam, right?

. Look at it like one of those little star patterned plants which just keeps issuing forth leaves out of the center. Now you could look at the leaf on the north side of the plant and maybe its just a little smaller than one on the south side, or shaped slightly different because its bumping into a rock or something.

. So outwardly, yes, we see these differences and acknowledge them, but inwardly, we see them all sprouting forth from the same seed. There is justification for the recognition of the unity of the Prophets when we allow for the rocks… and there have always been rocks!

. Moses’ Faith was not “exactly” a mirror image of Abraham’s Faith, but it was a progression adapted to the needs of humanity according to the times and conditions present in His time. The little plant first shoots out two tiny leaves, then the next pair, and more variegated according to God’s design. We see God’s design at work. From Abraham there were Ishmael and Isaac, and the tribes.

. From this root stock of Abraham branched three primary religions: Jewish, Christian, and Muslim. All were told that they would be gathered together at some point, and Baha’is believe that we’ve reached that point in time, and that the gathering is taking place as we speak (or type…

. God bless

.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

One should really ask of himself or herself the question:
How does this passage:
… “For the Son of man shall come in the Glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works” Matt 16:27
…relate to me?
Am I doing the works of God today? Or is the works that I am doing to no effect upon world suffering, really the works of God for today’s dying humanity?

Works mean nothing without the True Faith.
Listen to the Word:
They (the Apostles) said therefore unto him (Jesus): What shall we
do, that we may work the works of God? Jesus answered, and said
to them: This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he
hath sent.

• (John 6:28-29)
  Oh sure, you can say “We believe in Jesus too (),” but what Jesus do you
  believe in? The one whom the Apostles preached to the world about, the one
  who has been God from eternity to eternity, the Creator of all things, who for
  a moment entered into human history and died the death that ought to have
  been ours to suffer?
  OR
  Do you believe in the Jesus who Muhammad preached about, who
  is not God, nor our redeemer, who was then adopted by the Baha’i
  as once again, as in Islam, a mere man, created, only one of man-
  y prophets, one of whom is greater even than he?

I believe in the Jesus who is worshiped by the angels, whom Isaiah
called El-Gibbor, God Almighty, and the Jesus to whom the Father,
GOD THE FATHER, not Baha’u’llah, said , “Your throne, O God, is
forever and ever! A scepter of justice is the scepter of your kingdom.”

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Judas,
. In your own eyes, there was succession from Adam to Noah to Abraham to Moses to Jesus, right? And Muslims accept all of this and believe that Muhammad was the last in this succession, right? And Baha’is view the coming of the Bab and Baha’u’llah as a continuation of this succession of Prophets beginning with Adam, right?

Well first, Adam wasn’t a prophet. As for the religion up to Moses, there was not
established religion, just a bunch of traditions passed on, a mere recollection of
God, but no religion until after God saved the Israelites from Egypt.

 

[Servant19]

How was Jesus cursed?

And there you lost. The true God is not contradicting.

We are not in a competition, friend (winning and losing is not on the agenda)

Maybe the God of the OT is not the true God either therefore?

**
“… anyone who is hung on a pole is under God’s curse.”** - Deut 21:23

.

 

[Servant19]

Works mean nothing without the True Faith.
Listen to the Word:
They (the Apostles) said therefore unto him (Jesus): What shall we
do, that we may work the works of God? Jesus answered, and said
to them: This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he
hath sent.

• (John 6:28-29)
  Oh sure, you can say “We believe in Jesus too (),” but what Jesus do you
  believe in? The one whom the Apostles preached to the world about, the one
  who has been God from eternity to eternity, the Creator of all things, who for
  a moment entered into human history and died the death that ought to have
  been ours to suffer?
  OR
  Do you believe in the Jesus who Muhammad preached about, who
  is not God, nor our redeemer, who was then adopted by the Baha’i
  as once again, as in Islam, a mere man, created, only one of man-
  y prophets, one of whom is greater even than he?

I believe in the Jesus who is worshiped by the angels, whom Isaiah
called El-Gibbor, God Almighty, and the Jesus to whom the Father,
GOD THE FATHER, not Baha’u’llah, said , “Your throne, O God, is
forever and ever! A scepter of justice is the scepter of your kingdom.”

Well I would not say that we love Jesus too actually (although we do). I would rather ask that if you are asserting the above passage from John’s Gospel, that there is no need to do “anything” just sit down for all your life and let people die around you, as long as you “believe” Jesus is who He said He is… This would make Christianity the most evil organisation in history…

Is that what you are asserting Judas?

I think not.

No-one said that you need to GIVE UP your Faith in Jesus to at the very least TRY to find a sustainable solution to the worlds problems in THIS WORLD, not the utopian world that Jesus will bring with Him in His supposed Second Coming that everyone is blindly waiting for…

As I said, there are people dying of poverty TODAY…and its been going on for centuries. The extremes of wealth and poverty is becoming a wider and wider gulf, and Christianity has NO sustainable answer, and neither does Judaism or Islam…
*

“In this respect, two opposing views can easily be identified. At one extreme, a number of ideologies tend to seek social change as a mere outcome of the upgrading of the individual, be it through secular education and training, or through religious conversion. To these belong numerous religious movements that seek the solution of all human problems in the salvation of souls, either offered to fixed numbers, or finally to every human being on the planet. It is implicitly assumed by these groups that change in social structures will somehow be an automatic consequence of the salvation of a sufficient number of individuals and the victory of the righteous. In practice, of course, it is not difficult to find the righteous fully participating in oppressive social structures without even noticing the slightest contradiction. It is interesting to note that this type of ideological stand is so prevalent in the internationally supported development plans of the governments of many countries, plans that hope to overcome poverty with minimum structural change, by upgrading the skills of individuals through elaborate training programs and by offering them some means for improving their conditions, usually jobs or credit.”

What is your response to this apathy to the injustices of the world?

.

 

[daler]

believe in? The one whom the Apostles preached to the world about, the one
who has been God from eternity to eternity, the Creator of all things, who for
a moment entered into human history and died the death that ought to have
been ours to suffer?
OR
Do you believe in the Jesus who … only one of man-
y prophets, one of whom is greater even than he?

I believe in the Jesus…

Judas,
. We do not compare the Manifestations of God to each other, placing One above another. It is a little difficult to understand this, and sometimes somebody may say something which reflects how this Fountain gushes forth this or that, and be enchanted in some way, but we look at the Source of all the Fountains as One. Sometimes we are tempted to call the Fountain “God”, and in one sense, this is correct!

. “Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world.”

. With our own “human eyes”, we tend to see them as in some relation to ourselves, but They are not to be limited in this way. What we witness of Their human identity is someone like ourselves, so tall, weighs so much, has this color of hair and eyes. So we only see that human side, although we notice there’s something “else” going on, right?

. “The Bearers of the Trust of God are made manifest unto the peoples of the earth as the Exponents of a new Cause and the Revealers of a new Message. Inasmuch as these Birds of the celestial Throne are all sent down from the heaven of the Will of God, and as they all arise to proclaim His irresistible Faith, they, therefore, are regarded as one soul and the same person. For they all drink from the one Cup of the love of God, and all partake of the fruit of the same Tree of Oneness.”

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-22.html

.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

We are not in a competition, friend (winning and losing is not on the agenda)
Maybe the God of the OT is not the true God either therefore?
**
“… anyone who is hung on a pole is under God’s curse.”** - Deut 21:23
.

Oh I see, yes. It is better translated “hung on a tree,” but whatever.
Yes, Jesus was crucified, suffered God’s wrath, though he was sin-
less. What I am having trouble understanding is how that disqualif–
ies Jesus, or whatever you meant by the phrase “amongst so man-
y other unfulfilled prophecies.”

That is what Jesus came to do, as I said, to die the death and
bear the weight of all sins that should have been ours to suffer.
What “unfulfilled prophecies” do you mean?

 

[Servant19]

Oh I see, yes. It is better translated “hung on a tree,” but whatever.
Yes, Jesus was crucified, suffered God’s wrath, though he was sin-
less. What I am having trouble understanding is how that disqualif–
ies Jesus, or whatever you meant by the phrase “amongst so man-
y other unfulfilled prophecies.”

That is what Jesus came to do, as I said, to die the death and
bear the weight of all sins that should have been ours to suffer.
What “unfulfilled prophecies” do you mean?

Well, we can start with:

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? One of the central themes of biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of God. (Isaiah 2:1-4, 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34)

Specifically, the Bible says he will:

-Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
-Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
-Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
-Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world ― on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be the Messiah.

aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html

(the link above will demonstrate that this is the tip of the iceberg)

.

 

[daler]

Well first, Adam wasn’t a prophet. As for the religion up to Moses, there was not
established religion, just a bunch of traditions passed on, a mere recollection of
God, but no religion until after God saved the Israelites from Egypt.

Judas,
. I don’t really know if we are still on topic or not, but I think we are, insofar as it relates to the question of the station of Muhammad being among the other Prophets. This comes to mind, so I’ll pass it on, hoping not to be dwelling unnecessarily:

. "God, the Creator, saith: There is no distinction whatsoever among the Bearers of My Message. They all have but one purpose; their secret is the same secret. To prefer one in honor to another, to exalt certain ones above the rest, is in no wise to be permitted. Every true Prophet hath regarded His Message as fundamentally the same as the Revelation of every other Prophet gone before Him. If any man, therefore, should fail to comprehend this truth, and should consequently indulge in vain and unseemly language, no one whose sight is keen and whose understanding is enlightened would ever allow such idle talk to cause him to waver in his belief.

. The measure of the revelation of the Prophets of God in this world, however, must differ. Each and every one of them hath been the Bearer of a distinct Message, and hath been commissioned to reveal Himself through specific acts. It is for this reason that they appear to vary in their greatness. Their Revelation may be likened unto the light of the moon that sheddeth its radiance upon the earth. Though every time it appeareth, it revealeth a fresh measure of its brightness, yet its inherent splendor can never diminish, nor can its light suffer extinction."

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-34.html

. So in regards to the topic, this is how Baha’is tend to see Muhammad, as “a bearer of a distinct Message”. He, too, descended from Abraham, through Ishmael, and founded “a great nation”, rooted in Genesis.

. Most of the Quran appears to me to be a kind of spontaneous retelling of the stories of the Prophets of Israel and also Jesus. That it has a different tone or tenor would be like saying this is a stringed instrument and that is brass. Mozart is Mozart, and God’s melody is truly divine.

. The Arabic peoples for most part were not brought under the shelter of the God of Abraham but through the Prophet Muhammad.

. "Say (O Muslims), “We believe in Allah and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma’il (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), Ya’qub (Jacob), and to Al-Asbat [the twelve sons of Ya’qub (Jacob)], and that which has been given to Musa (Moses) and 'Iesa (Jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islam).” Quran 2:136

. I find this not only reasonable, but moving.

.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Well I would not say that we love Jesus too actually (although we do). I would rather ask that if you are asserting the above passage from John’s Gospel, that there is no need to do “anything” just sit down for all your life and let people die around you, as long as you “believe” Jesus is who He said He is… This would make Christianity the most evil organisation in history…

Is that what you are asserting Judas?

That’s not the Gospel. When you believe in the True Jesus Christ, give your life over to him, sur-
render to the testimony which God has left through his prophets from Moses onward, THEN you
have God working through you, to will and to do of his good pleasure. Saint James does instruct
us to do good works to show our faith, BUT WHAT FAITH? We hear then from Saint Jude that we
are to contend for the Faith that was ONCE AND FOR ALL delivered to the saints. No more new
revelations, no more “progression” or “advancement,” just Jesus and the Church which he estab-
lished about 2,000 years ago.

Now you talk about Christianity being the most evil organization in history, what
about a religion that is leading people’s souls into Hell for eternal, where the fire
is never quenched, and the smoke rises for all eternity? Which is the evil organ-
ization now?

No-one said that you need to GIVE UP your Faith in Jesus to at the very least TRY to find a sustainable solution to the worlds problems in THIS WORLD, not the utopian world that Jesus will bring with Him in His supposed Second Coming that everyone is blindly waiting for…

It is always good to try to make the world a better place, but
what good is it if I end up in Hell for following a false prophet,
nay, a false prophet who claims (or is claimed) to be the very
God the Father incarnate?
Nothing wrong with making the world better, but not by turn-
ing away from the Gospel of Jesus Christ, for God so loved
the world that he sent his only Begotten Son, that all who
believe on him may not perish, but may have eternal life.

What? You think the Second Coming is too long away to leave it in God’s hands?
We have to start forsaking the Cross in favor of a nine pointed star and preach u–
nity and peace and build a better-er society . . . not for me.

As I said, there are people dying of poverty TODAY…and its been going on for centuries. The extremes of wealth and poverty is becoming a wider and wider gulf, and Christianity has NO sustainable answer, and neither does Judaism or Islam…
**

What is your response to this apathy to the injustices of the world?.

I believe Pope Francis today is beginning to encourage Christians to do more good
works, help the poor, and so forth, but since when do they come before God? That
is what your text here is expressing to me. You are really sounding more like one
of the Mormons, crying out about the poor people, how Christianity has failed, we
are the new light of the world, join us . . .

You see how silly that out cry is.

 

[daler]

Now you talk about Christianity being the most evil organization in history…
.

Judas,
. You know very well that is not what he has said! Why are you leaping at such a thing? Please go back and read the context from which you are quoting. Then, if you will, offer some sort of an apology (or not) …

. What I suspect is being missed here is that the ancient religions of the world, in regards to the problems of the world, appear to be at loggerheads. This is to be expected, however, when the adherents view each other as in competition, or that their respective religions to which they profess allegiance, are not part of one cohesive process.

. That there is disintegration is a necessary aspect of nature. Last year’s leaves supply this year’s growth. There is no competition within the same tree, whether branch, limb, or root. That such a view persists reflects an inability of the leaf to respect the twig from which it has grown, or if it envies the blossom, or the fruit???

. Which succinctly calls to mind:

“Ye are all the leaves of one tree, and the fruits of just one branch…” Baha’u’llah

.