Could Muhammad of been a prophet?

  • Thread starter Thread starter YosefYosep
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
dronald said:
Ah I see! No, sorry my friend you’ve confused his meaning. No doubt God chose Paul before the foundation of the world as God’s plan is eternal as is He. God did not one day decide “Hey, I think I’ll pick this guy.” God would have known eternally and the same applies to the other Apostles, Mary, Moses, etc.
Click to expand...
Of course, well in which case, Paul was not really the last Apostle either. There is no first or last in God’s eyes, but “ACCORDING TO PAUL” who sees things in a “time” context, he thought of himself as the First Apostle, by this very statement…God obviously does not see firsts or lasts…

Interesting of note here, Paul sees God and His Son as two separate entities, God “sent” His Son to him…

.
 
To add to what Judas is saying I’ll post some passages I love:

1 Galatians 13 For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it.

14 And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers.

15 But when he who had set me apart before I was born, { Greek b set me apart from my mother’s womb b } and who called me by his grace

16 was pleased to reveal his Son to { Greek b in b } me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles

Also:

2 corin 11:24 Five times I received at the hands of the Jews the forty lashes less one.

25 Three times I was beaten with rods. Once I was stoned. Three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I was adrift at sea;

26 on frequent journeys, in danger from rivers, danger from robbers, danger from my own people, danger from Gentiles, danger in the city, danger in the wilderness, danger at sea, danger from false brothers;

27 in toil and hardship, through many a sleepless night, in hunger and thirst, often without food, { Or b often in fasting b } in cold and exposure.

28 And, apart from other things, there is the daily pressure on me of my anxiety for all the churches.

He certainly didn’t do it for power.
 
Servant19 said:
Of course, well in which case, Paul was not really the last Apostle either. There is no first or last in God’s eyes, but “ACCORDING TO PAUL” who sees things in a “time” context, he thought of himself as the First Apostle, by this very statement…God obviously does not see firsts or lasts…

Interesting of note here, Paul sees God and His Son as two separate entities, God “sent” His Son to him…

.
Click to expand...
The “revealing the Son” came as Paul was older so your interpretation must be false. Paul was called (as was every Apostle) before birth, outside of time as you say. However we know that Christ revealed Himself when Paul was older. No one is disputing this.
 
Servant19 said:
Of course, well in which case, Paul was not really the last Apostle either. There is no first or last in God’s eyes, but “ACCORDING TO PAUL” who sees things in a “time” context, he thought of himself as the First Apostle, by this very statement…God obviously does not see firsts or lasts…

Interesting of note here, Paul sees God and His Son as two separate entities, God “sent” His Son to him…
.
Click to expand...
First on the two separate entities thing, “God” in the New Testament more often than not
refers to God the Father, but that does not exclude Jesus the Son as that Same God.
In the Beginning was the Word . . . The Word WAS God . . . The Word was made Flesh . . .
We beheld his glory . . . as that of the Only Begotten of the Father . . . JESUS IS GOD!
Anyway, you described Paul as picked “long before Jesus handpicked any Apostles
toiling away on their fields” (first off, we’re talking fishermen, tax-collectors, slaves …
where’s this “toiling away on their fields” coming from?). God decided EVERYTHING
from before anything existed, Creation, Plan of Salvation, The New Kingdom, and the
Apostles who would preach the Gospel. Paul and the Twelve were already decided by
God from the beginning. You belittle the Twelve (pff, “toiling away on their fields”…!). :dts:
 
Judas_Thaddeus said:
First on the two separate entities thing, “God” in the New Testament more often than not
refers to God the Father, but that does not exclude Jesus the Son as that Same God.
In the Beginning was the Word . . . The Word WAS God . . . The Word was made Flesh . . .
We beheld his glory . . . as that of the Only Begotten of the Father . . . JESUS IS GOD!
Anyway, you described Paul as picked “long before Jesus handpicked any Apostles
toiling away on their fields” (first off, we’re talking fishermen, tax-collectors, slaves …
where’s this “toiling away on their fields” coming from?). God decided EVERYTHING
from before anything existed, Creation, Plan of Salvation, The New Kingdom, and the
Apostles who would preach the Gospel. Paul and the Twelve were already decided by
God from the beginning. You belittle the Twelve (pff, “toiling away on their fields”…!). :dts:
Click to expand...
Well if God is eternal and outside of time He would have revealed it as God the Father and God the Messiah in the OT…

He didn’t…so what is the source of God the Son, it has no relevance to the Law at all

(p.s the “toiling away in teh field” bit was a figure of speech…)
 
Judas_Thaddeus said:
I’m only going on the Word of God here. The voice of one, saying: Cry. And I said: What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the glory thereof as the flower of the held.
The grass is withered, and the dower is fallen, because the spirit of the Lord hath blown upon it. Indeed the people is grass:
​
The grass is withered, and the flower is fallen:
But the word of our God endureth forever.
​
– (Isaiah 40:6-8)
​
What is the Kingdom of God? Depending on the context,
we’re either talking Heaven or the Kingdom to Come after
the final defeat of the Devil.

That’s right, NO ONE, not you, not me, not anyone, no one without the real Jesus.

Nothing unclean is permitted to be within the Presence of God. Such is justice accord-
ing to God. We are all sinners and will be never worthy enough by ourselves. We can
do all the goody things we want, but it is all NOTHING in terms of our own merit before
the Infinite and Eternal God.
Click to expand...
So if nothing clean is permitted in the Presence of God, how did Jesus cleanse?

Why are you clean and a Jew isn’t?
 
dronald said:
The “revealing the Son” came as Paul was older so your interpretation must be false. Paul was called (as was every Apostle) before birth, outside of time as you say. However we know that Christ revealed Himself when Paul was older. No one is disputing this.
Click to expand...
Yes, he recognized the Son after birth, but He was chosen by God before birth…he said so himself 🙂

.
 
Before this thread is completed I would like to say that Muhammad was indeed the Seal of the Prophets. The Koran the Holy Book of God.

Baha’u’llah has written in the Tablet of ISHRÁQÁT (Splendours)

“Consider thou and call to mind the time when Muḥammad appeared. He said, and His word is the truth: ‘Pilgrimage to the House is a service due to God.’ And likewise are the daily prayer, fasting, and the laws which shone forth above the horizon of the Book of God, the Lord of the World and the true Educator of the peoples and kindreds of the earth. It is incumbent upon everyone to obey Him in whatsoever God hath ordained; and whosoever denieth Him hath disbelieved in God, in His verses, in His Messengers and in His Books. Were He to pronounce right to be wrong or denial to be belief, He speaketh the truth as bidden by God. This is a station wherein sins or trespasses neither exist nor are mentioned. Consider thou the blessed, the divinely-revealed verse in which pilgrimage to the House is enjoined upon everyone. It devolved upon those invested with authority after Him to observe whatever had been prescribed unto them in the Book. Unto no one is given the right to deviate from the laws and ordinances of God. Whoso deviateth therefrom is reckoned with the trespassers in the Book of God, the Lord of the Mighty Throne”. Link - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TB/tb-9.html

I testify that Thou art God and that there is none other God besides Thee. From everlasting Thou hast been a treasure hidden from the sight and minds of men and shalt continue to remain the same for ever and ever. The powers of earth can never frustrate Thee, nor can the might of the nations alarm Thee. Thou art the One Who hath unlocked the door of knowledge before the faces of Thy servants that they may recognize Him Who is the Day-Star of Thy Revelation, the Dawning-Place of Thy signs, the Heaven of Thy manifestation and the Sun of Thy divine beauty. In Thy holy Books, in Thy Scriptures and Thy Scrolls Thou hast promised all the peoples of the world that Thou Thyself shalt appear and shalt remove the veils of glory from Thy face, even as Thou didst announce in Thy words unto Thy Friend (Muhammad) through Whom the Day-Star of Revelation shone brightly above the horizon of Ḥijáz, and the dawning light of divine Truth shed its radiance among all men, proclaiming: ‘The Day when mankind shall stand before the Lord of the worlds.’ And before Muḥammad Thou didst impart this glad-tiding unto Him Who conversed with Thee, (Moses) saying: ‘Bring forth thy people from the darkness into the light and remind them of the days of God.’ Moreover Thou didst proclaim this truth unto the Spirit(Christ) and unto Thy Prophets and Thy Messengers, whether of the remote or more recent past.

Regards Tony
 
Servant19 said:
Well if God is eternal and outside of time He would have revealed it as God the Father and God the Messiah in the OT…
He didn’t…so what is the source of God the Son, it has no relevance to the Law at all

(p.s the “toiling away in teh field” bit was a figure of speech…)
Click to expand...
The Trinity is seen in the Old Testament. The Jews, who since times of old, did not have a
clear concept that a single being could be three persons, so there were blind-spots in the
Scriptures, which clarified after Jesus came and died. Observe:
  • The burden of the *Word of YHWH *upon Israel. Thus saith YHWH, who stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundations of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man in him:
  • In that day shall YHWH protect the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and he that hath offended among them in that day shall be as David: and the house of David, as that of God, as an *angel of YHWH *in their sight.
  • And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
  • **And I **will pour out upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace, and of prayers: and they shall look upon me, whom they have pierced: and they shall mourn for him as one mourneth for an only son, and they shall grieve over him, as the manner is to grieve for the death of the firstborn.
  • (Zechariah 12:1, 8-10)
God is talking about the people seeing him who is pierced, but then seems
to side track to some other person, like he stole the show, but if read care–
fully, God speaks of himself in the first person, then in the third person, the
SAME GOD.
(First/Third Person as in the
Grammar Form, to be clear)
​
We see this fulfilled
through Jesus, BE–
CAUSE HE IS GOD: And again another scripture saith: They shall look on him whom they pierced.
  • (John 19:37)
 
Servant19 said:
So if nothing clean is permitted in the Presence of God, how did Jesus cleanse?

Why are you clean and a Jew isn’t?
Click to expand...
Well Jesus, being God, was born sinless of a virgin (Hail Mary, Full of Grace).
Jesus who is God lived out the entire Law PERFECTLY, not breaking it even
once, yet he suffered the penalty for sin, though he was sinless, making thus
the final great sacrifice to appease the God’s sense of Justice.

The Old Covenant is over and the New Covenant has come , so in order
to be saved, one must be part of that New Covenant, for Jesus came to
shed his blood for everyone, invites everyone, but only those who accept
Jesus, again, the REAL Jesus, will be saved. That’s the Gospel, that we
can be forgiven of our sins through the Blood of Jesus.

It’s as simple as accepting Jesus,
making him Lord, God, and Savior
of your soul, as it is Jesus is the
Way, the Truth, and the Life.
 
Judas_Thaddeus said:
The Trinity is seen in the Old Testament.
Click to expand...
There is no Trinity in the Bible, that is a doctrine. That is a fact that can not be argued against. The Trinity was a Doctrine made up from Biblical Passages.

The Koran says about the Trinity

O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not “Trinity”: desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. Surah 4:171

Regards Tony
 
Servant19 said:
But still doesn’t remove the fact that Paul thinks he is a better Apostle than the other Apostles

2Corinthians 11:22
Click to expand...
How does 2 Corinthians 11:22 demonstrate that Paul thought he was a better Apostle than
the other Apostles? It sounds more like he is equating himself with others, the 12 Apostles
aren’t even mentioned anywhere?
 
Judas_Thaddeus said:
The Trinity is seen in the Old Testament. The Jews, who since times of old, did not have a
clear concept that a single being could be three persons, so there were blind-spots in the
Scriptures, which clarified after Jesus came and died. Observe:
  • The burden of the *Word of YHWH *upon Israel. Thus saith YHWH, who stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundations of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man in him:
  • In that day shall YHWH protect the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and he that hath offended among them in that day shall be as David: and the house of David, as that of God, as an *angel of YHWH *in their sight.
  • And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
  • **And I **will pour out upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace, and of prayers: and they shall look upon me, whom they have pierced: and they shall mourn for him as one mourneth for an only son, and they shall grieve over him, as the manner is to grieve for the death of the firstborn.
  • (Zechariah 12:1, 8-10)
God is talking about the people seeing him who is pierced, but then seems
to side track to some other person, like he stole the show, but if read care–
fully, God speaks of himself in the first person, then in the third person, the
SAME GOD.
(First/Third Person as in the
Grammar Form, to be clear)
​
We see this fulfilled
through Jesus, BE–
CAUSE HE IS GOD: And again another scripture saith: They shall look on him whom they pierced.
  • (John 19:37)
Click to expand...
Thanks Judas, I agree that this passage talks about Jesus, but it does not answer my question. Why would God not say “God the Messiah” in the OT?

The passage also complies perfectly with “…the Words of my Father who sent Me”, namely Messenger and Master. When you pierce the Messenger, you are piercing and removing all links with the Master…
 
tonyfish58 said:
There is no Trinity in the Bible, that is a doctrine. That is a fact that can not be argued against. The Trinity was a Doctrine made up from Biblical Passages (That People Made Up!).
Click to expand...
That’s right, I’m putting words your mouth. The Bible clearly expresses the Trinity.
The Bible doesn’t use the word Trinity. “Trinity” is a convenient word to use to de-
scribe what the Bible says about God. The Father is God (not Baha’u’llah), Jesus
is God, the Holy Spirit is God. Father Son Holy Spirit are each God, yet they in–
teract with own another, each having their own mind and will, but there is ONLY
ONE GOD. Therefore, the Father Son & Holy Spirit are the One God.

Now I put words in your reply in bold above because that is what you are saying.
The Doctrine of the Trinity was formulated based on what the Scriptures say, is my position.
Your position is that “The Trinity was a Doctrine made up from Biblical Passages (That People Made Up!).”
The only reason there is a Doctrine of the Trinity is because the Bible clearly gives us that information, which you obviously deny is there.
The “Doctrine” helps us see that the Scriptures are saying that. “The Word was God?
I thought the Father is God. What?! Now your telling me the Holy Spirit is God too? I
think I got it. Wait, huh?! The Father sent the Son? But I thought they were both God?
There’s only One God, isn’t there?” You see the simulated confusion? That’s what hap-
pens when you refute the Trinity
tonyfish58 said:
The Koran says about the Trinity

O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not “Trinity”: desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. Surah 4:171

Regards Tony
Click to expand...
Great!
It’s just too bad that it isn’t Scripture and that the Qur’an came from a false prophet, isn’t it?
 
Judas_Thaddeus said:
That’s right, I’m putting words your mouth. The Bible clearly expresses the Trinity.
The Bible doesn’t use the word Trinity. “Trinity” is a convenient word to use to de-
scribe what the Bible says about God. The Father is God (not Baha’u’llah), Jesus
is God, the Holy Spirit is God. Father Son Holy Spirit are each God, yet they in–
teract with own another, each having their own mind and will, but there is ONLY
ONE GOD. Therefore, the Father Son & Holy Spirit are the One God.

Now I put words in your reply in bold above because that is what you are saying.
The Doctrine of the Trinity was formulated based on what the Scriptures say, is my position.
Your position is that “The Trinity was a Doctrine made up from Biblical Passages (That People Made Up!).”
The only reason there is a Doctrine of the Trinity is because the Bible clearly gives us that information, which you obviously deny is there.
The “Doctrine” helps us see that the Scriptures are saying that. “The Word was God?
I thought the Father is God. What?! Now your telling me the Holy Spirit is God too? I
think I got it. Wait, huh?! The Father sent the Son? But I thought they were both God?
There’s only One God, isn’t there?” You see the simulated confusion? That’s what hap-
pens when you refute the Trinity

Great!
It’s just too bad that it isn’t Scripture and that the Qur’an came from a false prophet, isn’t it?
Click to expand...
How about this Judas 🙂

There is God, from which emanates the Word/Holy Spirit
The Son channels this Holy Spirit in its purest form for mankind to see in His actions and his speech/teachings.

Not confusing at all. There is only one God, His name is God.

Its like a bucket, the water and the funnel
The bucket gives of its water “through” the funnel to mankind.

Its like a sun, which gives of its rays “throgh” a perfect mirror to mankind.

Its not confusing at all…

In fact, nature demonstrates the nature of the relationship between God, the Holy Spirit and the Son all the time. God’s spiritual laws are manifested THROUGHOUT His creation 🙂

**
What you are saying denies the most critical Biblical verse “The Father is greater than I”**

.
 
Servant19 said:
Thanks Judas, I agree that this passage talks about Jesus, but it does not answer my question. Why would God not say “God the Messiah” in the OT?

The passage also complies perfectly with “…the Words of my Father who sent Me”, namely Messenger and Master. When you pierce the Messenger, you are piercing and removing all links with the Master…
Click to expand...
If you want the exact phrasing “God is Messiah”, I
don’t think you’ll find it. There are many prophecies
though concerning the Messiah, don’t ignore them:
For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the
government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called,
Wonderful, Counselor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world
to come, the Prince of Peace.
  • (Isaiah 9:6)
    (Important to note that “Father of the World
    to come,” “Father of Eternity,” “Everlasting
    Father,” how every you translate it, ultimate-
    ly on as far as the Hebrew Language is con-
    cerned, it means essentially “The Originator
    of Eternity”)
    Now the Child is speaking of Jesus, that he is
    the Mighty God, El-Gibor, who is the Originator
    of all things that exist.
    ​

And the quote you use ("…the Words of my Father who sent Me") is being over used.
You force everything that Jesus says to be that of the words of the Father, not Jesus,
especially when it hurts the Baha’i Faith and Islam. Was it the Father speaking when
out of Jesus’ mouth came “Father, Forgive Them” or how about when Jesus was ask-
ing if it was possible to not go to the Cross? What did the Father, as you have inter-
pretted, mean when Jesus said “I and the Father are One”? What is the Father say-
ing “I the Father and the Father are One”? This is not how God works.

​
 
Judas_Thaddeus said:
If you want the exact phrasing “God is Messiah”, I
don’t think you’ll find it. There are many prophecies
though concerning the Messiah, don’t ignore them:
For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the
government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called,
Wonderful, Counselor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world
to come, the Prince of Peace.
  • (Isaiah 9:6)
Click to expand...
Actually this is a reference to Baha’u’llah and Baha’u’llah affirms it.
The government was never upon the shoulder of Jesus. In fact Jesus has NOTHING to do with government. Christianity is about the Person, Jesus Christ.

Baha’u’llah brought global governance…
Judas_Thaddeus said:
(Important to note that “Father of the World
to come,” “Father of Eternity,” “Everlasting
Father,” how every you translate it, ultimate-
ly on as far as the Hebrew Language is con-
cerned, it means essentially “The Originator
of Eternity”)
​
Click to expand...

You see, I told you “eternity” is created. If eternity is created, then Jesus was also created, not even by the Father, by God…

.​
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top