Could nonhumans have immortal souls?

[Bran_Stark]

Is it a defined, revealed, and infallibly proclaimed Catholic doctrine that human beings are the only earthly creatures with immortal souls? Obviously the Church accepts the existence of angels. And it also has left open the possibility of intelligent extraterrestrial life. But what about our own animals? What if our communications with dolphins or chimpanzees greatly improves in the future, and we get to talking theology?

Dolphin: What will happen after I die?

Catholic scientist: Sorry Flipper, but you are a “lower animal”, and will cease to exist upon your death. We humans get to live forever, though.

Dolphin: That doesn’t sound quite fair… but if the Lord God who made the Oceans wills it, who are we to speak against Him?

Catholic scientist: Wait a minute… you know about God?

Dolphin: Duh… Do you?

Well, how would you reply to Flipper?

 

[prodigalson12]

Time irrelevant, eternity is as well, flipper can be visted over and over again within flippers time line, from here, from there, for eternity. I do think, though, purely speculation, that God will give some consolation to our beloved pets, giving them access to us in an ongoing way through eternity, but that’s just my opinion. Mine have been my loyal comanions for years, and especially the last year or so, been playing the roll of children, but they really don’t understand at all what I had to endure to keep them with me at all. They show love in their own cat way, and are very much dependent upon me for all things, surely I know the Lord takes care of me so I can take care of them, he cares about me, just as he does them, and I like to think they will be around, one way or the other after they and I pass on from this life.

 

[1ke]

You asked what Catholic theology is. It is this:

People have spiritual souls-- immortal souls. That is what it means to be made in the image and likeness of God. A spiritual soul has intellect and will. And, yes, this is a teaching that is a doctrine of the Church:

355 “God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them.” Man occupies a unique place in creation: (I) he is “in the image of God”; (II) in his own nature he unites the spiritual and material worlds; (III) he is created “male and female”; (IV) God established him in his friendship.

356 Of all visible creatures only man is “able to know and love his creator”. He is “the only creature on earth that God has willed for its own sake”, and he alone is called to share, by knowledge and love, in God’s own life. It was for this end that he was created, and this is the fundamental reason for his dignity:

What made you establish man in so great a dignity? Certainly the incalculable love by which you have looked on your creature in yourself! You are taken with love for her; for by love indeed you created her, by love you have given her a being capable of tasting your eternal Good.

357 Being in the image of God the human individual possesses the dignity of a person, who is not just something, but someone. He is capable of self-knowledge, of self-possession and of freely giving himself and entering into communion with other persons. And he is called by grace to a covenant with his Creator, to offer him a response of faith and love that no other creature can give in his stead.

Animals have material souls. They do not spiritual souls. Your imaginary conversation between dolphin and man is just that, imaginary. See above, "of all visible creatures only man is “able to know and love his creator.”

 

[LutheranDK]

Is it a defined, revealed, and infallibly proclaimed Catholic doctrine that human beings are the only earthly creatures with immortal souls? Obviously the Church accepts the existence of angels. And it also has left open the possibility of intelligent extraterrestrial life. But what about our own animals? What if our communications with dolphins or chimpanzees greatly improves in the future, and we get to talking theology?

Dolphin: What will happen after I die?

Catholic scientist: Sorry Flipper, but you are a “lower animal”, and will cease to exist upon your death. We humans get to live forever, though.

Dolphin: That doesn’t sound quite fair… but if the Lord God who made the Oceans wills it, who are we to speak against Him?

Catholic scientist: Wait a minute… you know about God?

Dolphin: Duh… Do you?

Well, how would you reply to Flipper?

I wouldn’t reply to Flipper, because all Flipper would be able to say is
“IIIIICCCC…IIIIIIICCCCCCC”, or something like that. **IF **it means something, it probably means “Gimme a fish, stupid!”.

Animals don’t have souls, because they are not created in His image as we are.
Now, to the question “could nonhumans have immortal souls?”, the answer is yes. Intelligent aliens, if they exist, will.

(not going into the whole “soul”-debate here…)

 

[Verbum]

Hi Bran,

The soul is the principle of life. When animals die, their ‘soul’ goes away with the matter that they are composed of. In humans God creates, for each individual a spiritual soul that can live after the body dies, but remains ¨"ordained" to the body. The soul is incomplete without the body, which makes a case for a philosophical proof of its immortality. If animals had immortal souls, they would not be animals; they would be human, wouldn’t they?

Verbum

 

[prodigalson12]

Hi Bran,

The soul is the principle of life. When animals die, their ‘soul’ goes away with the matter that they are composed of. In humans God creates, for each individual a spiritual soul that can live after the body dies, but remains ¨"ordained" to the body. The soul is incomplete without the body, which makes a case for a philosophical proof of its immortality. If animals had immortal souls, they would not be animals; they would be human, wouldn’t they?

Verbum

I’m talking about our new reality, one after this life, where time and space no longer bind us as they do now. I can’t see any reason we cannot go back to this time line, during our pets lives to visit them, that’s all. Sorry, too abstract for most people to wrap their minds around.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Hi Bran,

The soul is the principle of life. When animals die, their ‘soul’ goes away with the matter that they are composed of. In humans God creates, for each individual a spiritual soul that can live after the body dies, but remains ¨"ordained" to the body. The soul is incomplete without the body, which makes a case for a philosophical proof of its immortality. If animals had immortal souls, they would not be animals; they would be human, wouldn’t they?

Verbum

That’s pretty circular.

 

[LilyM]

God gave man dominion over the animals and plants - ie the other forms of earthly life. God would hardly do that if those creatures had immortal souls of their own, after all He doesn’t give us dominion over each other, does He?

 

[StrawberryJam]

God gave man dominion over the animals and plants - ie the other forms of earthly life. God would hardly do that if those creatures had immortal souls of their own, after all He doesn’t give us dominion over each other, does He?

Also, it would be much harder to evangelize a cow.

 

[buffalo]

Actually, we could extend this line of reasoning to plants. By definition all living things have mortal souls. Only humans have immortal souls.

In any case the 5th commandment should read - thou shall not kill men, animals or plants. It doesn’t.

 

[Bran_Stark]

God gave man dominion over the animals and plants - ie the other forms of earthly life. God would hardly do that if those creatures had immortal souls of their own, after all He doesn’t give us dominion over each other, does He?

Well He does, to some extant - in establishing human governments. But since angels are 'higher" beings than us with immortal souls, why can there not be “lower” beings than us, under our “dominion” as per Genesis 1 & Psalm 8, with them as well?

I will certainly agree that we humans are a unique creation within which God became incarnate to save, but I find it hard to believe that, with all the examples of animal intelligence and our own ignorance of its full potential, no other beings could possibly have any sort of relationship with their Creator. That does not by any means need to be the same as ours - they might be an unfallen race without sin, for instance - but it could exist. So I don’t see the reasoning in accepting that God might have made rational life on other planets yet refusing to consider He might have done so here as well. Does the particular ball of rock we dwell upon really have that much theological significance?

I don’t necessarily think myself that any of our creatures are such - and if any are they would only be very small numbers of species - but I don’t think it’s the job of the Church to make pronouncements on the scientific subject of the mental capacity of animals. We ought to keep all our doors open.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Well He does, to some extant - in establishing human governments. But since angels are 'higher" beings than us with immortal souls, why can there not be “lower” beings than us, under our “dominion” as per Genesis 1 & Psalm 8, with them as well?

I will certainly agree that we humans are a unique creation within which God became incarnate to save, but I find it hard to believe that, with all the examples of animal intelligence and our own ignorance of its full potential, no other beings could possibly have any sort of relationship with their Creator. That does not by any means need to be the same as ours - they might be an unfallen race without sin, for instance - but it could exist. So I don’t see the reasoning in accepting that God might have made rational life on other planets yet refusing to consider He might have done so here as well. Does the particular ball of rock we dwell upon really have that much theological significance?

I don’t necessarily think myself that any of our creatures are such - and if any are they would only be very small numbers of species - but I don’t think it’s the job of the Church to make pronouncements on the scientific subject of the mental capacity of animals. We ought to keep all our doors open.

How does an animal make a choice to accept or reject God? Just curious. Or do they get off the hook and not have to decide at all?

 

[Marc_Anthony]

How does an animal make a choice to accept or reject God? Just curious. Or do they get off the hook and not have to decide at all?

They’re “off the hook”, but at the same time their souls are destroyed at death. That’s not to say God can’t possibly reform their souls later as an act of kindness if he so chooses.

 

[StrawberryJam]

They’re “off the hook”, but at the same time their souls are destroyed at death. That’s not to say God can’t possibly reform their souls later as an act of kindness if he so chooses.

That’s the kind of thing I like about Catholics. They don’t tell God what or how he can do things. I find the fundamentalist view of God very disturbing, as if they are telling God what he can and can not do.

 

[Sonife]

It was never mentioned in the Bible that animals don’t have souls. Just our dominion over them. I’m sure without a doubt that our heavenly Father can resurrect our pets and make them a part of our joy in heaven. Sin came on this earth through man, not through animals. Animals are innocent. The pains that animals are suffering right now is because of the curse in Eden. Thus, the Lord allowed reluctantly His creatures to become innocent victims of human brutality.
Psalms 145:9,16-17 His tender mercies are over all His creatures.
Rebecca was judged to be a good wife for Isaac because she is kind to animals. Genesis 24:11-20
Jonah 3:7-8 Animals, along with men were involved in repentance.
Job 12:7-10 …in his hand is the soul of every living thing snd breath of all mankind.

Romans 8:19-21 the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God, because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. KJV

Luke 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God. KJV

Psalm 36:6 Your righteousness is like the holy mighty mountains, your judgements are like the great deep; you save humans and animals alike, O LORD. NRS

And they fell upon their faces, and said, O GOD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin , and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation. Number 16:22 (it refers to the spirits of animals)

The only thing that humans are advantage over animals, is that we are made in His image.

It is mentioned in the Bible that all creatures shall praise the Creator. Because we were given the dominion over them, it doesn’t mean that we shall abuse them. God loves those who loves all of His creations. All animals have a soul and are going to be with their maker.

Pope John Paul II said that animals have souls.

LOVE ANIMALS!

 

[StrawberryJam]

It was never mentioned in the Bible that animals don’t have souls. Just our dominion over them. I’m sure without a doubt that our heavenly Father can resurrect our pets and make them a part of our joy in heaven. Sin came on this earth through man, not through animals. Animals are innocent. The pains that animals are suffering right now is because of the curse in Eden. Thus, the Lord allowed reluctantly His creatures to become innocent victims of human brutality.
Psalms 145:9,16-17 His tender mercies are over all His creatures.
Rebecca was judged to be a good wife for Isaac because she is kind to animals. Genesis 24:11-20
Jonah 3:7-8 Animals, along with men were involved in repentance.
Job 12:7-10 …in his hand is the soul of every living thing snd breath of all mankind.

Romans 8:19-21 the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God, because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. KJV

Luke 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God. KJV

Psalm 36:6 Your righteousness is like the holy mighty mountains, your judgements are like the great deep; you save humans and animals alike, O LORD. NRS

And they fell upon their faces, and said, O GOD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin , and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation. Number 16:22 (it refers to the spirits of animals)

The only thing that humans are advantage over animals, is that we are made in His image.

It is mentioned in the Bible that all creatures shall praise the Creator. Because we were given the dominion over them, it doesn’t mean that we shall abuse them. God loves those who loves all of His creations. All animals have a soul and are going to be with their maker.

Pope John Paul II said that animals have souls.

LOVE ANIMALS!

JPII never used the word Immortal souls in connection with animals.

The bible does not mention God creating animals in his image.

But, that does not mean that God is limited to save any of his creation.

I liked Marc Anthony’s way of simply stating it.

 

[choy]

Time irrelevant, eternity is as well, flipper can be visted over and over again within flippers time line, from here, from there, for eternity. I do think, though, purely speculation, that God will give some consolation to our beloved pets, giving them access to us in an ongoing way through eternity, but that’s just my opinion. Mine have been my loyal comanions for years, and especially the last year or so, been playing the roll of children, but they really don’t understand at all what I had to endure to keep them with me at all. They show love in their own cat way, and are very much dependent upon me for all things, surely I know the Lord takes care of me so I can take care of them, he cares about me, just as he does them, and I like to think they will be around, one way or the other after they and I pass on from this life.

i had the same mentality, that heaven is such a wonderful place it would include our beloved pets

but alas, after a homily from our priest it changed my mind. “if being in heaven with God is not enough for you, then there’s something wrong with you”

and he’s right. what use do i have for my furry friends when i am in the presence of God? we cannot comprehend the fullness of God in this world, but i’m sure He is all we need to be in heaven

 

[Jermosh]

One needs to be fearful of putting God in a box. In the end we must not forget that this is Gods domain, with His rules. We honestly cannot state what He can or cannot do.

 

[prodigalson12]

i had the same mentality, that heaven is such a wonderful place it would include our beloved pets

but alas, after a homily from our priest it changed my mind. “if being in heaven with God is not enough for you, then there’s something wrong with you”

and he’s right. what use do i have for my furry friends when i am in the presence of God? we cannot comprehend the fullness of God in this world, but i’m sure He is all we need to be in heaven

I learned many, many hard lessons for putting my faith into priests alone, they are weak, flawed human beings just like the rest of us, their words are NOT the infalable word of God, put that into context when you form your opinions and objections, they are merely tools some of them, at the very best to deliver the sacraments, nothing at all more, especially in our day and age, do NOT take every single one of them at face value and every single word they utter, is the law, the truth and that’s that…not to say there aren’t some very wonderful ones, but they are becoming like the world these days, and we are getting fewer and fewer of them we can completely rely upon for all things spiritual, much less merely Catholic teaching related.

 

[thistle]

It was never mentioned in the Bible that animals don’t have souls. Just our dominion over them. I’m sure without a doubt that our heavenly Father can resurrect our pets and make them a part of our joy in heaven. Sin came on this earth through man, not through animals. Animals are innocent. The pains that animals are suffering right now is because of the curse in Eden. Thus, the Lord allowed reluctantly His creatures to become innocent victims of human brutality.
Psalms 145:9,16-17 His tender mercies are over all His creatures.
Rebecca was judged to be a good wife for Isaac because she is kind to animals. Genesis 24:11-20
Jonah 3:7-8 Animals, along with men were involved in repentance.
Job 12:7-10 …in his hand is the soul of every living thing snd breath of all mankind.

Romans 8:19-21 the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God, because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. KJV

Luke 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God. KJV

Psalm 36:6 Your righteousness is like the holy mighty mountains, your judgements are like the great deep; you save humans and animals alike, O LORD. NRS

And they fell upon their faces, and said, O GOD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin , and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation. Number 16:22 (it refers to the spirits of animals)

The only thing that humans are advantage over animals, is that we are made in His image.

It is mentioned in the Bible that all creatures shall praise the Creator. Because we were given the dominion over them, it doesn’t mean that we shall abuse them. God loves those who loves all of His creations. All animals have a soul and are going to be with their maker.

Pope John Paul II said that animals have souls.

LOVE ANIMALS!

All living things (humans, plants, animals) have souls but only humans have immortal souls. The souls of plants and animals cease to exist when they die.

Animals (no matter what pet lovers might think) do not go to Heaven. Only humans have a supernatural end. This is what the Church teaches.

CCC 367 Sometimes the soul is distinguished from the spirit: St. Paul for instance prays that God may sanctify his people “wholly”, with “spirit and soul and body” kept sound and blameless at the Lord’s coming. The Church teaches that this distinction does not introduce a duality into the soul. “Spirit” signifies that** from creation man is ordered to a supernatural end and that his soul can gratuitously be raised beyond all it deserves to communion with God.**