Could Not be Saved?

[Prayer_Warrior]

Prayer Warrior, so are you saying if such a person as I’ve described no longer believes or consents that a sin is mortal, the CCC section does not apply to them?

To commit a mortal sin, you HAVE to know it is a sin. It is one of the conditions of mortal sin. However, I think you are getting tangled in the concept of what one truly knows. Only God will be able to judge if a person is in mortal sin. Only God knows what the person knew when then left the Church. All the Church is saying is that leaving the Church is a grave matter. If a person* knows* what the Church is and *willingly *leaves it, then it becomes a mortal sin because the sin meets the three aforementioned conditions.

 

[CMatt25]

To commit a mortal sin, you HAVE to know it is a sin. It is one of the conditions of mortal sin. However, I think you are getting tangled in the concept of what one truly knows. Only God will be able to judge if a person is in mortal sin. Only God knows what the person knew when then left the Church. All the Church is saying is that leaving the Church is a grave matter. If a person* knows* what the Church is and *willingly *leaves it, then it becomes a mortal sin because the sin meets the three aforementioned conditions.

PW, sorry if I am getting tangled further. So then is it correct to say if a person such as I describe, still knows the Church considers something a mortal sin but they themselves no longer believe it is, then it’s safe to say the person used to know but no longer does? And the CCC text doesn’t apply?

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

PW, sorry if I am getting tangled further. So then is it correct to say if a person such as I describe, still knows the Church considers something a mortal sin but they themselves no longer believe it is, then it’s safe to say the person used to know but no longer does? And the CCC text doesn’t apply?

My official answer is that we have to leave this to the judgment of God. In my opinion, if a person is following their conscience and truly believes that in leaving the Church they are not sinning, then I don’t think that would be a mortal sin. Like I said, the paragraph cited is all about those who know, and I personally would not categorize someone as you’ve described as someone who knows. But God’s ways are not our ways, and His thoughts are not our thoughts, that’s why I say that we really need to leave it to God…

 

[fred_conty]

PW, sorry if I am getting tangled further. So then is it correct to say if a person such as I describe, still knows the Church considers something a mortal sin but they themselves no longer believe it is, then it’s safe to say the person used to know but no longer does? And the CCC text doesn’t apply?

I’m going to rephrase this and maybe it will help.

PW, sorry if I am getting tangled further. So then is it correct to say if a person such as I describe, still knows the BIBLE considers something a mortal sin but they themselves no longer believe it is, then it’s safe to say the person used to know but no longer does? And the BIBLE text doesn’t apply?

Does this help?

 

[thistle]

I take it you don’t believe a person could have at one time been properly catechized and held the belief that the Catholic Church is necessary, but then later in life came to believe differently.

In such a case if the person did not repent they would die in a state of mortal sin and condemn themselves to Hell. Anyone who deliberately and consciously rejects the Church and dies believing that will not be saved.

 

[JM3]

" Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

Do these words in your CCC mean they can not be saved since “could not” is a tense of can not. Or do they mean might not. If the latter, why didn’t the writiers simply say that?

Perhaps, if you read what the Vatican II document says you will understand it better.

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

1. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion. He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but, as it were, only in a “bodily” manner and not “in his heart.”(12*) All the Church’s children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged.(13*)

So, to answer your question. If a person knows, at one time, that belonging to the Church is necessary and later decides they no longer believe this, then they can not be saved, since they have seperated themselves from the Church of Christ and, therefore, from God.

This, of course, is only directed to catholics who leave the Catholic Church.

 

[Bookcat]

" Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

Do these words in your CCC mean they can not be saved since “could not” is a tense of can not. Or do they mean might not. If the latter, why didn’t the writiers simply say that?

God says “You must get in the boat or your going to drown”. Person knowing it is God who has said such…says to God “No.”

God says “You must stay in the boat or your going to drown”. Person knowing it is God who has said such…says to God “No.”

Different from say for example:

God says “You must get in the boat or your going to drown”. Person says to God “No.” But God sees that the person did not know what he was saying… God takes that into account…(God is the one who knows us better than we ourselves do…he is the udge and indeed the best judge)

All analogies limp of course…but maybe that will help some.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Perhaps, if you read what the Vatican II document says you will understand it better.

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

So, to answer your question. If a person knows, at one time, that belonging to the Church is necessary and later decides they no longer believe this, then they can not be saved, since they have seperated themselves from the Church of Christ and, therefore, from God.

This, of course, is only directed to catholics who leave the Catholic Church.

Respectfully, I disagree with the bolded comment.The document uses the word “knowing” not “knew”. In other words, to commit a mortal sin, you must know that it is wrong when you are doing it. It is a willful disobedience to God that makes severs our relationship with God. If you have been mislead, but according to your conscience have left the Church because you now feel something has shown it not to be the true Church that sure does not seem to be willful disobedience. I’m not talking about someone who is led by a sinful behavior to leave the Church. However, if after prayer and a diligent search of the Scriptures and historical documents their conscience leads them to believe that another church is the true Church then I’m not sure God would consider them in mortal sin. At least, not under the conditions that the Church itself has told us must exist in order for the sin to be mortal.

 

[bz5]

PW, sorry if I am getting tangled further. So then is it correct to say if a person such as I describe, still knows the Church considers something a mortal sin but they themselves no longer believe it is, then it’s safe to say the person used to know but no longer does? And the CCC text doesn’t apply?

Relax a little. As many have said, if you know the Catholic church is the one founded by Jesus and you belong in it, but you willingly, purposefully choose not to, then the catechism quote applies. But who does that? And as many have pointed out, it’s not for us to judge an individual’s heart. Hearing EWTN and Catholic Answers Live, for example, and some of the Protestant TV and radio preachers, I feel pretty confident in saying the Catholic church has a more liberal and merciful view of who might get to Heaven than a lot of others.

 

[babylonsfalling]

" Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

Do these words in your CCC mean they can not be saved since “could not” is a tense of can not. Or do they mean might not. If the latter, why didn’t the writiers simply say that?

Rejecting the Church while knowing it was founded by God through Christ. That’s sounds very much like not accepting Christ Himself.
I would still not judge the person is saying they’re condemned, we’re not supposed to take the judgment seat of God.
Is this about you or just hypothetical?

 

[thistle]

My official answer is that we have to leave this to the judgment of God. In my opinion,** if a person is following their conscience and truly believes that in leaving the Church they are not sinning, then I don’t think that would be a mortal sin.** Like I said, the paragraph cited is all about those who know, and I personally would not categorize someone as you’ve described as someone who knows. But God’s ways are not our ways, and His thoughts are not our thoughts, that’s why I say that we really need to leave it to God…

You are wrong. If such a person dies believing that then they condemn themselves to Hell.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

You are wrong. If such a person dies believing that then they condemn themselves to Hell.

Mortal sin requires full knowledge. In the situation I described the person does not have full knowledge, but unintentional ignorance.

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

 

[JM3]

Mortal sin requires full knowledge. In the situation I described the person does not have full knowledge, but unintentional ignorance.

A sin does not have to be ‘mortal’ to seperate you from the Church.

CCC

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

LG #14

…All the Church’s children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged.(13*)

 

[SwissGuard25]

I don’t know. That is up to God.
However, those who are enemies of the Catholic Church will not be able to see the gates of Heaven. I can’t promise you this or judge. This subject is very touching and should be left up to God.
Remember what Jesus said:
“Judge not, and ye shall not be judged:
condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned:
forgive, and ye shall be forgiven.”

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

A sin does not have to be ‘mortal’ to seperate you from the Church.

That is what I am saying. The CCC paragraph in the original post talks about one who cannot be saved. After baptism, one must commit mortal sin in order to be damned. The paragraph is clearly establishing that leaving the Church is a grave matter. However, we cannot assume that everyone who separates from the Church has full knowledge and complete consent. Thus, we cannot assume that all conditions for mortal sin (being damned) have been met even though the sin is of grave matter.

The CCC paragraph originally cited specifically says that a person could not be saved who knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it. All I am saying is that we mere mortals cannot presume to judge what a person knows or does not know.

 

[CMatt25]

Everyone thank you so much for your replies. I was hoping though there was one answer to this on an Apologetics forum. But it just seems to me some are saying the person would not be saved. Others that we don’t know and to relax and leave it up to God. Or have different opinions on what it means to “know” if someone once professed they knew the Catholic Church was necessry but then no longer believes it is. I’ll keep following the thread for any further replies though. But thanks again for all who have answered and thanks ahead for any more. God bless you all.

 

[thistle]

Mortal sin requires full knowledge. In the situation I described the person does not have full knowledge, but unintentional ignorance.

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

The OP’s thread is about a Catholic who has been properly catechised. Please don’t go off topic.
Any Catholic who has been properly catechised and later decides to reject the Catholic Church will condemn themselves to Hell if they die unrepentent rejecting the Church.

 

[fhansen]

The OP’s thread is about a Catholic who has been properly catechised. Please don’t go off topic.
Any Catholic who has been properly catechised and later decides to reject the Catholic Church will condemn themselves to Hell if they die unrepentent rejecting the Church.

But you’re equating being told the truth with holding/believing/knowing the truth. The truths the Church proposes to us aren’t the same as scientific truths that can often be easily validated if one tries. Most Christian truths are personally known, internalized, and assented to solely by faith-and that can require a process whereby one comes into agreement with those claims-or not.

 

[thistle]

But you’re equating being told the truth with holding/believing/knowing the truth. The truths the Church proposes to us aren’t the same as scientific truths that can often be easily validated if one tries. Most Christian truths are personally known, internalized, and assented to solely by faith-and that can require a process whereby one comes into agreement with those claims-or not.

When you are told that the Church teaches a particular teaching you are obliged to believe it even if you don’t understand it. You should of course make all efforts to try to understand the teaching but having to accept it does not depend on you fully understanding it.
If you reject an infallible teaching then you commit heresy.
If you reject a non-infallible one you do not commit heresy but you do still put yourself in a state of mortal sin.
In both cases if you die unrepentent then you go to Hell.

 

[fhansen]

When you are told that the Church teaches a particular teaching you are obliged to believe it even if you don’t understand it. You should of course make all efforts to try to understand the teaching but having to accept it does not depend on you fully understanding it.
If you reject an infallible teaching then you commit heresy.
If you reject a non-infallible one you do not commit heresy but you do still put yourself in a state of mortal sin.
In both cases if you die unrepentent then you go to Hell.

So if I go out and tell some person a variety of teachings the CC holds to be true and I back it up with, say, the Catechism and they don’t believe it they go to hell?