Could our souls be emergent?

[Bahman]

God Himself told us that we are persons at the moment of our conception, therefore with a soul that he creates. Why would we want to think your suggestion is accurate in any way? Why don’t you like our God? He is actually your only and best Friend in the world (in the Person of Jesus, and in the being of the Church).

And why would we think that God “intervenes” when he does not intervene in anything, but is the natural principle cause and natural final cause of all (God is “Natural”, and not any kind of interjection into what is natural, even while his being is above material nature and above created spiritual natures [both human and angelic].

There is no moment of conception. The process is continuous.

 

[John_Martin]

There is no moment of conception. The process is continuous.

If the process were continuous, that means you are not human, and will never be until you are fully in act, which will never happen because you are decomposing and will finish decomposing before the process is able to be fully in act.

Actually, there is a moment when the sperm no longer acts to fertilize and the egg no longer acts to take in fertilization, but the new cell moves toward act (growth). That is the moment of conception. Now, the materialization of this has a temporal duration, but the spiritual creation of the form (the soul) is instantaneous, and at that instant, the material begins to act out the form of the soul (the person), rather than act out the form of sperm or the form of egg. At that moment the cell is no longer “in-Formed” by the form “sperm” nor by the form “egg” but it is “in-Formed” by Human Soul in its temporal growth toward actualizing the soul in matter.

 

[Bahman]

If the process were continuous, that means you are not human, and will never be until you are fully in act, which will never happen because you are decomposing and will finish decomposing before the process is able to be fully in act.

I don’t understand. Could you please elaborate?

Actually, there is a moment when the sperm no longer acts to fertilize and the egg no longer acts to take in fertilization, but the new cell moves toward act (growth). That is the moment of conception. Now, the materialization of this has a temporal duration, but the spiritual creation of the form (the soul) is instantaneous, and at that instant, the material begins to act out the form of the soul (the person), rather than act out the form of sperm or the form of egg. At that moment the cell is no longer “in-Formed” by the form “sperm” nor by the form “egg” but it is “in-Formed” by Human Soul in its temporal growth toward actualizing the soul in matter.

First, the materialization has a duration as you accepted it hence the process is continuous. Second, even if we accept that the moment of conception exist, that could mean that the soul emerges at that point rather than be created.

 

[John_Martin]

I don’t understand. Could you please elaborate?

First, the materialization has a duration as you accepted it hence the process is continuous. Second, even if we accept that the moment of conception exist, that could mean that the soul emerges at that point rather than be created.

No, the soul is the FORM of the person, not a growing member of the body from the material. The soul is fully complete, fully able to know and to will and to move. It is when this soul is created that the material of the cell now is animated or “moved” (by the soul) to make use of the genetic material in actualizing what the soul already is. Material cannot live or change without Form animating it, moving it into its intended “shape” of being. Material has to be moved by a mover, an animator. Material takes time to conform to FORM, thus we experience time. Before fertilization, there were two different FORMs animating two bodies (sperm and egg) to actualize their being in matter.

You say, “that could mean…” - you make suggestions all the time. But I am telling you that what I have written here is the way it happens. I am not saying, “maybe it is this way”, I am not saying, “It could be this way”. You have guesses, but I am telling you the reality.

How can I know the reality? Revelation, Bahman, from the source of the One who established reality. There was a man you think came from Nazareth, but he actually came from God and is God, full of Grace and full of Truth.

 

[Bahman]

No, the soul is the FORM of the person, not a growing member of the body from the material. The soul is fully complete, fully able to know and to will and to move. It is when this soul is created that the material of the cell now is animated or “moved” (by the soul) to make use of the genetic material in actualizing what the soul already is. Material cannot live or change without Form animating it, moving it into its intended “shape” of being. Material has to be moved by a mover, an animator. Material takes time to conform to FORM, thus we experience time. Before fertilization, there were two different FORMs animating two bodies (sperm and egg) to actualize their being in matter.

You say, “that could mean…” - you make suggestions all the time. But I am telling you that what I have written here is the way it happens. I am not saying, “maybe it is this way”, I am not saying, “It could be this way”. You have guesses, but I am telling you the reality.

How can I know the reality? Revelation, Bahman, from the source of the One who established reality. There was a man you think came from Nazareth, but he actually came from God and is God, full of Grace and full of Truth.

Could you please quote from Bible that embryo is the result of conception from an egg and a sperm?

 

[John_Martin]

Could you please quote from Bible that embryo is the result of conception from an egg and a sperm?

First, your question is about science, not about revelation - your question refers to an observable phenomenon, not to unobservable spiritual reality.

Second, are you saying you would believe it and from now on proclaim it, if it were found in the Bible? Are you saying that you are a loyal follower of the Bible, so that whatever you find there you would accept?

Third, revelation is not delivered to you from the Bible, as if it were a conduit from God to you. The Bible is the property of the Church, written by the Church, as a record of actual revelation, for use in reproof, correction and training in goodness (righteousness). Your encounter with revelation is in a real person speaking to you from God, a real person who has been sent to you from God to tell you. You will find those people sent from God to talk to you in the members of the Church who pass on revelation to you so that you have it and know it.

 

[cfauster]

…
Actually, there is a moment when the sperm no longer acts to fertilize and the egg no longer acts to take in fertilization, but the new cell moves toward act (growth). That is the moment of conception. … At that moment the cell is no longer “in-Formed” by the form “sperm” nor by the form “egg” but it is “in-Formed” by Human Soul in its temporal growth toward actualizing the soul in matter.

In case anyone wants to delve into the cell biology details of fertilization, including fusion of sperm and egg nuclei:
bdfund.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/wi_whitepaper_life_print.pdf

 

[Bahman]

First, your question is about science, not about revelation - your question refers to an observable phenomenon, not to unobservable spiritual reality.

I knew this answer. There are dozen of book out there each claim it explains unobservable spiritual reality while being so different from each other. So to conclude, what is spiritual reality? Who knows!

Second, are you saying you would believe it and from now on proclaim it, if it were found in the Bible? Are you saying that you are a loyal follower of the Bible, so that whatever you find there you would accept?

I need to be convinced.

Third, revelation is not delivered to you from the Bible, as if it were a conduit from God to you. The Bible is the property of the Church, written by the Church, as a record of actual revelation, for use in reproof, correction and training in goodness (righteousness). Your encounter with revelation is in a real person speaking to you from God, a real person who has been sent to you from God to tell you. You will find those people sent from God to talk to you in the members of the Church who pass on revelation to you so that you have it and know it.

Church can do mistake. Example: we were believing that the earth is center of the world.

 

[John_Martin]

I knew this answer. There are dozen of book out there each claim it explains unobservable spiritual reality while being so different from each other. So to conclude, what is spiritual reality? Who knows!

I need to be convinced.

Church can do mistake. Example: we were believing that the earth is center of the world.

Jesus is our King (we Catholics). We are convinced simply by his saying so.

But, there was another man who needed to be convinced before he would take Jesus as his word. His name was Nicodemus. This man came to Jesus one night and said to him, “Teacher, we know that you are a teacher who is come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.”
Jesus answered him, “I am telling you the truth, unless one is born again from above he cannot recognize the kingdom of God.”
Nicodemus smiled, thought for a moment, then asked, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
Jesus answered this problematic doubt: “Again, I am telling you the truth, unless one is born of water of physical childbirth and then born of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.".

Basically, Bahman, Jesus (in the acts of his People), gives this new birth into the Kingdom of God to anyone who seeks it. His Spirit is given to them immediately and instantaneously when they are baptized by his People, so that they are “born of the Spirit”. They are enlightened, a light shining within their souls, to now see and understand in their intellect and will what they could not see before. On a full moonlit night, one can see objects, shapes, clearly enough to walk. But when the sun rises, colors become visible because of the addition of direct light. It is the same with us who have the Holy Spirit; we understand things are true that were not visible with only our natural reason and intellect. Many people seek enlightenment, because they want to understand; but in Jesus enlightenment is brought immediately to us. Many people do not want this light because they already, at a level of human reason, want to remain in moonlight, where truth is not known, able to continue believing things they want to believe.

[John chapter 3 is location of the encounter of Nicodemus with Jesus]

 

[Bahman]

Jesus is our King (we Catholics). We are convinced simply by his saying so.

But, there was another man who needed to be convinced before he would take Jesus as his word. His name was Nicodemus. This man came to Jesus one night and said to him, “Teacher, we know that you are a teacher who is come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.”
Jesus answered him, “I am telling you the truth, unless one is born again from above he cannot recognize the kingdom of God.”
Nicodemus smiled, thought for a moment, then asked, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
Jesus answered this problematic doubt: “Again, I am telling you the truth, unless one is born of water of physical childbirth and then born of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.".

Basically, Bahman, Jesus (in the acts of his People), gives this new birth into the Kingdom of God to anyone who seeks it. His Spirit is given to them immediately and instantaneously when they are baptized by his People, so that they are “born of the Spirit”. They are enlightened, a light shining within their souls, to now see and understand in their intellect and will what they could not see before. On a full moonlit night, one can see objects, shapes, clearly enough to walk. But when the sun rises, colors become visible because of the addition of direct light. It is the same with us who have the Holy Spirit; we understand things are true that were not visible with only our natural reason and intellect. Many people seek enlightenment, because they want to understand; but in Jesus enlightenment is brought immediately to us. Many people do not want this light because they already, at a level of human reason, want to remain in moonlight, where truth is not known, able to continue believing things they want to believe.

[John chapter 3 is location of the encounter of Nicodemus with Jesus]

How you could be confident when there are many religious institutions which claim they are telling the truth?

 

[John_Martin]

How you could be confident when there are many religious institutions which claim they are telling the truth?

The Catholic Church never rebelled against itself and went off on its own to make its teachings say what they wanted them to say. Instead it only taught and still teaches only what was taught, passing it on, passing on the Holy Spirit to each new member of the People.

When the Protestants protested, they then began building churches like children imitating adult behavior (you may have seen in your life children pretending they are firemen or doctors or even super-heroes - they do some things that firemen, doctors, and super-heroes do, but they are not actually having these vocations).

The only way to have what Jesus, what God, actually brought to us, is to find followers of his who did not rebel, but were committed to deliver to us exactly what they received to give us. That is our only historically legitimate way to participate in Jesus today. He said to his apostles, his disciples: “If anyone hears you, they hear me; if anyone rejects you, they reject me and Him who sent me to be one with you.” Historically legitimate participation, in Time, Today, with Him who is above Time, eternal.

 

[aclausen]

The Catholic Church never rebelled against itself and went off on its own to make its teachings say what they wanted them to say. Instead it only taught and still teaches only what was taught, passing it on, passing on the Holy Spirit to each new member of the People.

When the Protestants protested, they then began building churches like children imitating adult behavior (you may have seen in your life children pretending they are firemen or doctors or even super-heroes - they do some things that firemen, doctors, and super-heroes do, but they are not actually having these vocations).

The only way to have what Jesus, what God, actually brought to us, is to find followers of his who did not rebel, but were committed to deliver to us exactly what they received to give us. That is our only historically legitimate way to participate in Jesus today. He said to his apostles, his disciples: “If anyone hears you, they hear me; if anyone rejects you, they reject me and Him who sent me to be one with you.” Historically legitimate participation, in Time, Today, with Him who is above Time, eternal.

And yet the Church responded to at least some of the Protestant complaints by ending or at least reforming a number of practices, like Indulgences, that the Protestants were railing against. And it’s not as if the Protestants would agree with the claim in your first paragraph even today. What you are uttering is a dogmatic position, one that I don’t even think in fact is true. The Church certainly has changed its practices significantly since the Western church’s earliest days, so has been no more constant than any Protestant church.,

 

[John_Martin]

And yet the Church responded to at least some of the Protestant complaints by ending or at least reforming a number of practices, like Indulgences, that the Protestants were railing against. And it’s not as if the Protestants would agree with the claim in your first paragraph even today. What you are uttering is a dogmatic position, one that I don’t even think in fact is true. The Church certainly has changed its practices significantly since the Western church’s earliest days, so has been no more constant than any Protestant church.,

I don’t really expect Protestants to agree; if they agreed, they would not be protesting. Nor do I expect you to agree; if you agreed, you would ask to be joined to Jesus, and not claim to be Atheist.

 

[aclausen]

I don’t really expect Protestants to agree; if they agreed, they would not be protesting. Nor do I expect you to agree; if you agreed, you would ask to be joined to Jesus, and not claim to be Atheist.

But you are making a claim, and one that can be demonstrated to be problematic based on changes in Church practices and theology over the last 1,700 or 1,800 years.

 

[John_Martin]

But you are making a claim, and one that can be demonstrated to be problematic based on changes in Church practices and theology over the last 1,700 or 1,800 years.

The “changes in church practices and theology” you are speaking of are in existence in the protesting groups inventing practices and theology to suit themselves, not in the Church - no changes in Catholic Doctrine and Teaching.

And that is the reason of confidence, about which Bahman has asked; there is one Person with his obedient followers who grants Grace and Truth in fullness, through the mission entrusted to his followers to freely give what they had been given, and only that. There has been no change, nor will there be.

 

[aclausen]

The “changes in church practices and theology” you are speaking of are in existence in the protesting groups inventing practices and theology to suit themselves, not in the Church - no changes in Catholic Doctrine and Teaching.

And at this point we will enter the seemingly impossible zone of what constitutes “doctrine”.

 

[edwest2]

Getting back to the original question, the soul does not emerge, it is infused by God. Exactly when this happens has not been defined by the Church, but we are to treat the newly conceived child as we would any human being at the moment of conception.

Pope John Paul II:

“… regard the spirit either as emerging from the forces of living matter, or as a simple epiphenomenon of that matter, are incompatible with the truth about man. They are therefore unable to serve as the basis for the dignity of the human person.”

We have a body and a soul.

Ed

 

[vz71]

Please watch this video first. This video shows how nicely a sperm and an egg form an embryo and how embryo evolve to make a new baby. What we call a person could be emergent.

Your thought?

I still see a soul as there complete and whole.

After all, without the soul, it would not be alive.