Could people know what Scripture was before the Church?

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NHL0403 said:
Yeah. My question had less to do with the canons (the Jews had two different ones during the time of Christ?) I think. But rather about a person regognizing that Genesis is divinly inspired without the Church needing to say so. If that makes sense.
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Yes, they had 2 versions. One was written in Hebrew and the other in Greek, which had been translated centuries earlier when the area of Egypt (I think) was controlled by the Greeks. At that time, and even during the time of Jesus, most of that entire area of the Middle East used Greek as a common language for conducting commerce.
 
As I understand it, the idea of a “canon” was something that developed over time. It is my impression that in the early first century AD, the two groups of books listed as “the Law” and “the Prophets” already formed what we would today call a canon, but no others at that time—not even Psalms, for instance, even though the Psalms were sung in Temple worship and were widely known.
 
NHL0403 said:
I’m new to the forums so please bear with me. My question is this.

Since the Romans Catholic Church gave us the Scriptures, and we could not know what was Scripture without Her authority, how could the people in the old testament or know what the Scriptures were?

How could Jesup quote them as Scripture if no one defined them ad Scripture?

Best regards
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The OT has as its main goal to lead to Jesus in the NT, which fulfills, completes and even often perfects it.

But in OT times we find multiple accounts where Yahweh Spoke to the Hebrew nation; often through some chosen “man.” Lets keep in mind that the OT is OLD; {about 4,000 years old} compared to the NT which is about 2,000 years old.

In that time -span-difference are the degree of illiteracy and the availability of writing supplies; also the OT had a much more nomadic culture. All of these critical issues saw great improvement over that period of time; making a book of instruction; formed from various LETTERS of instruction more doable.

While the Bibles Instructions and Lessons were fully authored by the end of the 1st Century; the bible as the book we now know it to be did not exist until the end of the 4th Century. … This meant the early Church {Catholic} was without “the bible” for a prolonged period of time, yet grew rapidly on the Blood of Her many Martyrs

Early faith formation relied on WORD of Mouth; a practice perfected by there history and heritage, where WOM was the NORM for passing on “the faith.”

God Bless,
Patrick
 
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BartholomewB said:
As I understand it, the idea of a “canon” was something that developed over time. It is my impression that in the early first century AD, the two groups of books listed as “the Law” and “the Prophets” already formed what we would today call a canon, but no others at that time—not even Psalms, for instance, even though the Psalms were sung in Temple worship and were widely known.
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I didn’t say that either one was accepted as “canon”, either by the Jews or the Church at that point in time (but they were later, when the canon was established by the Church as “official”). My main reason for responding to what you said, was because it made it sound like you were saying the Church “added” books to the OT Scriptures, which She didn’t do. All of those books were already a part of the Septuagint, which the Apostles also used.
 
Telstar said:
All of those books were already a part of the Septuagint, which the Apostles also used.
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Yes, agreed. But not all the books in the Septuagint were accepted into the Christian canon, at least in the West. For instance, 3 & 4 Maccabees, the Prayer of Manasseh, and the Psalms of Solomon, among others.
 
BartholomewB said:
Yes, agreed. But not all the books in the Septuagint were accepted into the Christian canon, at least in the West. For instance, 3 & 4 Maccabees, the Prayer of Manasseh, and the Psalms of Solomon, among others.
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I never said the Church didn’t leave any out. 😉
 
Did we know what the Church declared as Scripture before Trent? Or was that the first ecumenical council to infallibly claim them?
 
NHL0403 said:
Did we know what the Church declared as Scripture before Trent? Or was that the first ecumenical council to infallibly claim them?
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The Council of Trent (between 1545 and 1563) confirmed the canon that was already known

The canon as we know it today was already declared at Council of Hippo, 393 A.D. / Carthage, 397 A.D. / Carthage 419 A.D.
 
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NHL0403 said:
Did we know what the Church declared as Scripture before Trent? Or was that the first ecumenical council to infallibly claim them?
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Trent was the first ecumenical council to infallibly list the books of the canon.

The Vulgate bible, in which St Jerome translated earlier Greek into Latin, had been promotd by the Church for quite a while before Trent.
 
It wasn’t a formality like it is today.
Many books not in the bible today would have been known to Jesus. The Book of Enoch is a great example. In fact Jude quotes from it.
 
Didn’t Trent leave out one or two books that were in the council of Hippo and Carthage?
 
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I’m not exactly sure. In the OT I think? Can someone help me out? I’ll try to research the difference.
 
NHL0403 said:
I’m not exactly sure. In the OT I think? Can someone help me out? I’ll try to research the difference.
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The books listed in the Council of Hippo 393 AD are EXACTLY the same as in the Bible today.
 
I found the title in a different forum on here. Looks like Trent did not include 1 esdras and Hippo and Carthage did?
 
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NHL0403 said:
I found the title in a different forum on here. Looks like Trent did not include 1 esdras and Hippo and Carthage did?
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Let me repeat it.

The books listed in the Council of Hippo 393 AD are EXACTLY the same as in the Bible today.
 
NHL0403 said:
Looks like Trent did not include 1 esdras and Hippo and Carthage did?
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Handle with care! The numbering of the four books of Esdras has changed.

The old 1 Esdras = Ezra

The old 2 Esdras = Nehemiah

The old 3 Esdras = the new 1 Esdras

The old 4 Esdras = the new 2 Esdras
 
thistle said:
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NHL0403:
I found the title in a different forum on here. Looks like Trent did not include 1 esdras and Hippo and Carthage did?
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Let me repeat it.

The books listed in the Council of Hippo 393 AD are EXACTLY the same as in the Bible today.
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I don’t know. There is a forum post on here about it. Just Google difference between trent and hippo and Carthage canon?
 
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