Could smith have been a true prophet from god?

[pickguard1]

Yep! Exactly!

My point was, and I’m sure you would agree, is that if we don’t believe in those miracles it does not mean we are damned.

Of course, unless your purpose in disbelieving them is becuase you disbelieve in a doctirne they present (which is already assumed to be existing doctrine anyway). But the main reason for not needing to believe in them, is that all the Truth that they may have is already present in the Church, Tradition, the Bible and the sacraments.

LOL! I have been mistaken for the wrong gender. I’m considering putting it in my signature. (My chromosomes are XX )

That’s a good idea - I’m going to update my signature right now

 

[RebeccaJ]

It doesn’t matter how familiar I am with these boards. I’m not saying Rebecca is the only one, I just happened to notice it. It’s overgeneralization and it’s selective sampling. You ought to feel no more entitled saying “I notice that Mormons” whatever, than I “I noticed that black people / Mexicans / Homosexuals / Women” whatever. It’s neither fair to stereotype behaviour, nor is it conducive to sheding light on what is misunderstood. My post count really has nothing to do with the statements your condoning. Please consider this.

Please. This is ridiculous. I was raised mormon. I live in Salt Lake City, Utah. I work live eat breath every day with mormons. Passive-aggressive is a normal behavior for mormons. They discuss it among themselves with explanations as to why they behave this way.

It does shed light, in that this behavior seeks to sow doubt, not truth. It is a needly-needly devil on the shoulder, whispering in the ear of Christians. It is destructive. I see no reason to sit back and watch it happen and say nothing.

All you have to do is read what mormons write, here or any mormon website, including lds.org. It isn’t selective sampling, it is a part of the culture.

 

[CJ_Nick]

Please. This is ridiculous. I was raised mormon. I live in Salt Lake City, Utah. I work live eat breath every day with mormons. .

Hey RebeccaJ

Just to clarify, you don’t actually eat Mormons, do you???

Peace,
CJ

 

[RebeccaJ]

Hey RebeccaJ

Just to clarify, you don’t actually eat Mormons, do you???

Peace,
CJ

With, CJ Nick, with.

 

[Primox]

Please. This is ridiculous. I was raised mormon. I live in Salt Lake City, Utah. I work live eat breath every day with mormons. Passive-aggressive is a normal behavior for mormons. They discuss it among themselves with explanations as to why they behave this way.

It does shed light, in that this behavior seeks to sow doubt, not truth. It is a needly-needly devil on the shoulder, whispering in the ear of Christians. It is destructive. I see no reason to sit back and watch it happen and say nothing.

All you have to do is read what mormons write, here or any mormon website, including lds.org. It isn’t selective sampling, it is a part of the culture.

Haha oh my goodness. So much for the defence others have given in your stead about not overgeneralizing. I am man, but I will not speak for all men. I am a protestant, but I will not speak for all protestants. I am a Christian, but I will not speak for all of those who walk in Christ. You were a Mormon, but you speak for all Mormons? It’s called the confirmation bias when you look to places which confirm your inferences. But you haven’t, nor can you, look to all of those who don’t behave in the way you expect them to. It wouldn’t be hard for me to find 100 or more sources that suggest some terrible behaviour that is aggregated among blacks or women or homosexuals, but I am not in a position to make judgement calls on a limited sample (truthfully), and I am not in a position to make judgement calls on any person or group (as God has dictated we oughtn’t). I am telling you this, because I recognize stereotyping is taking place - you may make the choice to refute it and you may continue making blanket statments - but to what avail is it to you? to Catholics? to Mormons? I posit - absolutely nothing. I have a good idea about what you’re doing, and so do you, so let’s not argue about semantics or what constitutes this or that. If you think you’re saying the right things, by all means continue. But if you see otherwise, please don’t. That’s all. All respect intended.

 

[GodIsGracious]

You were a Mormon, but you speak for all Mormons?

She’s not saying this. What Rebecca is doing is speaking from experience as a Mormon and living amongst Mormons as to their tactics in evangelization. She is not speaking FOR them, just ABOUT them and what she experienced based off of that experience.

It is an observance on her part (and not only her, but others as well). Scientists can make observations and make statements off of those observations and they are considered valid observations until proven wrong.

Same thing here.

 

[Primox]

Scientists can make observations and make statements off of those observations and they are considered valid observations until proven wrong.

Same thing here.

Rebecca’s observations have not been scientific. I’m sorry, but there’s no bridge between the real world and the scientific method. Science is extremely rigorous, and human evaluation has been shown to be flawed through and through.

But like I said, don’t worry about my take on what’s being said. If anyone should feel it’s the right thing to say, by all means, continue.

 

[GodIsGracious]

Rebecca’s observations have not been scientific. I’m sorry, but there’s no bridge between the real world and the scientific method. Science is extremely rigorous, and human evaluation has been shown to be flawed through and through.

But like I said, don’t worry about my take on what’s being said. If anyone should feel it’s the right thing to say, by all means, continue.

I knew you’d say that.

How do you think ethnographers do their job?

 

[CJ_Nick]

With, CJ Nick, with.

AHHHHHH!!! " with "

My apologies, I am comforted to be corrected by my glaring misread.

Peace,
CJ

 

[Primox]

I knew you’d say that.

How do you think ethnographers do their job?

Mercy. I’m certain they draw both different conclusions and in different ways and with different explanations than Rebecca. They too, use the scientific method.

Anyway, seriously, don’t let this bother anyone. If anyone thinks what was said should stand, let it stand - continue saying it - you must have some good reason for it that is unbeknownst to me.

 

[ParkerD]

Gracious,
I will try and answer your questions.

Just because you disagree with something does not make it false. And as for your last sentence here, then you have just stated that we should all convert to Judaism.

I think Christ gave His message to the Jews first, and if they had believed Him as a body of believers including their leaders, then they would have altered their beliefs and their religious doctrine to accept the New Covenant and to accept Christ as their Savior, their promised Messiah. Then the Jewish faith would be the true faith.

I don’t doubt that Smith was a fallible human being and that he may have repented. That’s all well and good. But that doesn’t mean that I have to follow him.

I don’t think you should follow Joseph Smith unless you get a witness from the Holy Spirit that what he taught is true. Then if you still choose not to follow, that’s still your choice, and you’ll be OK either way. You have what you want in the church you belong to.

And really, why DO you follow a mere fallible, sinful, human being? Why are you following his teachings? Me, I’m following God. I am following Jesus Christ. Everything the Catholic Church does is to bring one’s soul in communion with Jesus Christ. There’s NO WAY I’d follow a human being, a sinner, who would lead me away from Him.

This is a touchy subject, evidently. I “follow the living prophet” because the Holy Spirit bears witness to me personally that he teaches the truths that God wants me to know for my particular circumstances in my particular day. I have complete, first-hand knowledge that I am following the will of and in communion with Jesus Christ, our Lord. I don’t need anyone else to figure that out for me. I know what I know. But of course anyone can say whatever they want about my knowledge and the spiritual witness I have. But for me to deny it, would be to deny what I know with every cell in my body. My mind knows, my body knows, my spirit knows, my heart knows.

It’s understandable that it can be maddening to find that what one has held to be true all their life to actually be false. THAT is human nature: to want to cling to what they believe is true. I’m sure you can say the same for me. That’s fine. But if you were to acknowledge that the Catholic church is The Church that Christ founded it would blow away your first paragraph above.

I would never do that in a million years. But for you and so many others, the Catholic church is all well and good, and I understand you believe it is the church Christ founded.

And as to define “Christian,” infact, yes. We do. You don’t like that idea because to accept that idea would, again, negate your first paragraph above.

I’ve said I don’t care how you define Christian. The Bible contains plenty of descriptive language as to what it means to be a follower of Christ. Why should I care what anyone else thinks based on their own biases?

Galations 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

If you think that is prideful to feel those fruits and live and walk in the Spirit (not perfectly, but trying with a sincere heart), then that is your definition and I disagree with it. But again, do as you wish. It’s your life.

 

[ParkerD]

People straying from the Truth does not equal the Church straying form the Truth, which cannot happen, and hasn’t happened. If it were impossible for people to stray from the Truth, there would be no free will. God doesn’t deny us our free will, because he calls us to love Him, which can’t be done without free will.

However, it seems like spiritual suicide to stray from God’s Church simply because other people have strayed from God’s Church. Kind of like blinding one’s self to be led by the blind.

Pickguard,
I just happen to disagree with you. The Jewish religion strayed from their true God. To reiterate about the potential for apostasy and the safeguards against it:

What are the safeguards God implemented to keep the covenants and ordinances pure?

(1) The Bible–one standard of measurement, but standing alone insufficient as the only standard of measurement because words mean different things to different people.
(2) Twelve apostles called by priesthood authority–checks and balances in place by having twelve men with individual perspectives but a common purpose: to keep the doctrine pure and to spread the gospel of Salvation throughout the world. Christ implemented this safeguard in His church, the New Covenant gospel of salvation through Him.
(3) The Spirit giving personal revelation–available to confirm true doctrine by bearing witness to the heart of each person as they hear the word of the Lord and as they live by the doctrine they are taught. This teaching is in Christ’s teachings and is throughout the writings of the apostles.
(4) Leaders and teachers called by priesthood authority at every level of church organization with checks and balances in place to discern when people are being led astray. Any one leader does not act within their stewardship without a check and balance of someone else who oversees what they do or what they teach.

Apostasy can happen within any church, and does happen. Being human brings us that possibility.

 

[Finrock]

Hello RebeccaJ!

Please. This is ridiculous. I was raised mormon. I live in Salt Lake City, Utah. I work live eat breath every day with mormons. Passive-aggressive is a normal behavior for mormons. They discuss it among themselves with explanations as to why they behave this way.

It does shed light, in that this behavior seeks to sow doubt, not truth. It is a needly-needly devil on the shoulder, whispering in the ear of Christians. It is destructive. I see no reason to sit back and watch it happen and say nothing.

All you have to do is read what mormons write, here or any mormon website, including lds.org. It isn’t selective sampling, it is a part of the culture.

I’ve never had discussions like this. I’ve never seen or heard of discussions like this. I haven’t experienced this culture that you are describing. Perhaps the Mormons you have experienced in your life have shown this tendency? But, this wouldn’t makes it a “culture”.

In any case, it’s easier to label something as “passive-aggressive” rather than actually addressing the substance of it. Perhaps that is what Primox is suggesting.

On a discussion forum where all you have are typed words and a few emoticons in use to help with conveying intent and meaning, the charitable thing to do is to assume the best intent from each party. That is how meaningful discussions occur. This isn’t just a Mormon or Catholic thing, it is a human thing. My personal method that I try to follow is even if I think I see a particular “tactic” being used, I assume that they are being sincere and address the substance of their arguments, or if it is abosolutely impossible to assume sincerity, I ignore the irrelevant and still address the substance. Otherwise the discussion breaks down. Really, it all comes down to treating others how you would like to be treated; To being charitable and respectful. Particularly on a discussion forum where it is exceedingly difficult to judge a person’s attitude or intent based simply on words.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[pickguard1]

Pickguard,
I just happen to disagree with you. The Jewish religion strayed from their true God. To reiterate about the potential for apostasy and the safeguards against it:

What are the safeguards God implemented to keep the covenants and ordinances pure?

(1) The Bible–one standard of measurement, but standing alone insufficient as the only standard of measurement because words mean different things to different people.
(2) Twelve apostles called by priesthood authority–checks and balances in place by having twelve men with individual perspectives but a common purpose: to keep the doctrine pure and to spread the gospel of Salvation throughout the world. Christ implemented this safeguard in His church, the New Covenant gospel of salvation through Him.
(3) The Spirit giving personal revelation–available to confirm true doctrine by bearing witness to the heart of each person as they hear the word of the Lord and as they live by the doctrine they are taught. This teaching is in Christ’s teachings and is throughout the writings of the apostles.
(4) Leaders and teachers called by priesthood authority at every level of church organization with checks and balances in place to discern when people are being led astray. Any one leader does not act within their stewardship without a check and balance of someone else who oversees what they do or what they teach.

Apostasy can happen within any church, and does happen. Being human brings us that possibility.

The term apostasy that we’re dealing with here doesn’t have anything to do with Judaism. Also, the term apostasy isn’t something which can be applied to an institution at all - only individuals can apostasize. The Church which Christ founded on Peter, against which the gates of hell will not prevail, cannot by that very promise ever be found to be unfaithful to Christ. THAT is the safeguard of the Truth that God gave to us. That individual men and women choose not to follow that Church doesn’t invalidate it. Rather, that the Church doesn’t change its doctrine is a visible proof of its purity.

Your example of the Jewish people failing to recognize God among them and continuing in the Old Covenant isn’t an example of a religion straying per se- it’s an example of men who belonged to the True religion at that time failing to recognize the fulfillment of it - hardening their hearts to the revealed God in the Flesh - Jesus Christ. If their religion was fulfilled through Jesus Christ - what need is their of “more” fulfillment? None.

 

[GodIsGracious]

Your example of the Jewish people failing to recognize God among them and continuing in the Old Covenant isn’t an example of a religion straying per se- it’s an example of men who belonged to the True religion at that time failing to recognize the fulfillment of it - hardening their hearts to the revealed God in the Flesh - Jesus Christ.** If their religion was fulfilled through Jesus Christ - what need is their of “more” fulfillment? None**.

[Emphasis mine]

That’s what I said in an earlier post but it was ignored. Ah well.

 

[RebeccaJ]

On a discussion forum where all you have are typed words and a few emoticons in use to help with conveying intent and meaning, the charitable thing to do is to assume the best intent from each party. That is how meaningful discussions occur. This isn’t just a Mormon or Catholic thing, it is a human thing. My personal method that I try to follow is even if I think I see a particular “tactic” being used, I assume that they are being sincere and address the substance of their arguments, or if it is abosolutely impossible to assume sincerity, I ignore the irrelevant and still address the substance. Otherwise the discussion breaks down. Really, it all comes down to treating others how you would like to be treated; To being charitable and respectful. Particularly on a discussion forum where it is exceedingly difficult to judge a person’s attitude or intent based simply on words.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

I didn’t ever say that I believe mormons to be insincere. I do address what you say.

I see no reason to pretend that when people are encapsulating insults into kind words that this is something “charitable and respectful”.

 

[Primox]

I didn’t ever say that I believe mormons to be insincere. I do address what you say.

I see no reason to pretend that when people are encapsulating insults into kind words that this is something “charitable and respectful”.

A’right, a’right, this is an exercise in futility. Shall we just agree to love one another? :grouphug:

 

[ParkerD]

The term apostasy that we’re dealing with here doesn’t have anything to do with Judaism. Also, the term apostasy isn’t something which can be applied to an institution at all - only individuals can apostasize. The Church which Christ founded on Peter, against which the gates of hell will not prevail, cannot by that very promise ever be found to be unfaithful to Christ. THAT is the safeguard of the Truth that God gave to us. That individual men and women choose not to follow that Church doesn’t invalidate it. Rather, that the Church doesn’t change its doctrine is a visible proof of its purity.

Your example of the Jewish people failing to recognize God among them and continuing in the Old Covenant isn’t an example of a religion straying per se- it’s an example of men who belonged to the True religion at that time failing to recognize the fulfillment of it - hardening their hearts to the revealed God in the Flesh - Jesus Christ. If their religion was fulfilled through Jesus Christ - what need is there of “more” fulfillment? None.

Pickguard,
I actually dislike the term “apostasy” because it carries with it so many connotations that are usually negative. But I do think the Jewish religion had often strayed from what was revealed to Moses, so I think it was an applicable comparison I made.

The church Christ established could stray from its roots and yet the work of Christ (the salvation of souls in this world) could continue. The gates of hell will never prevail against the work of Christ. The work of Christ prevails in the end, always and forever.

I think “upon this rock” means something different than what you think it means, but there is no way I would be able to persuade you otherwise.

As to your last sentence, I am not looking for “fulfillment” in my life through a religion as an organization. I look for truth, truth that satisfies my soul, that when I drink of its water, I never thirst because it is quenching to the yearnings in my soul. I absolutely know the truth of the words of Isaiah,

55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.
3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

My covenant is with Christ. His truth is what I know and what I love.

 

[Stouts989]

It is not a very anti-christian doctrine. The once saved always saved is anti-christian. That leaves a wide open gap for a christian to do anything they want. Why? Well, they’re saved! I have seen many “saved” Christians act in such a manner.

That’s not what reform doctrine teaches…do the homework.

 

[GodIsGracious]

That’s not what reform doctrine teaches…do the homework.

Why should I learn what reform doctrine teaches when I have The Truth in the Catholic Church? Believe all the heresy you want, doesn’t make it true.

Good day!