Could smith have been a true prophet from god?

[GodIsGracious]

hrm.

Looks like Finfrock derailed the thread with discussions of hockey. Did we get too close to showing what a fraud Joseph Smith is? I suspect so and he didn’t like it.

 

[pickguard1]

hrm.

Looks like Finfrock derailed the thread with discussions of hockey. Did we get too close to showing what a fraud Joseph Smith is? I suspect so and he didn’t like it.

Hopefully, rather he might be picking up a Catechism because he has looked at the arguments for Catholicism honestly and found them to be what they are - true I admit, I have a difficult time comprehending what it would be like to come to the conclusion that my entire belief system is flawed (or that even a portion of it is flawed) simply because I can and will never come to that conclusion. It must be difficult, though. I commend anyone with the courage to find the Truth, because it takes tremendous amounts of courage to do so. It takes courage to hold on to it as well, although once you have it, you do have a bit of support from God

 

[ParkerD]

If you believed were true, what was the purpose of Mormonism at all? I don’t think you’re being entirely honest about your opinion here, or if you are, why don’t you convert to Catholicism - because you are right - the Church we belong to IS fine - the finest thing this side of heaven.

Pickguard,
I assume you haven’t read several of the other threads where I have talked about this. (That’s OK.)

My point has been that you folks have what you want in your church, and you have a belief that leads you to keep the commandments of God and live by the ideals Christ taught if you follow the Bible’s teachings. That will provide you the kind of happiness in this life that I assume you are seeking, and in the hereafter you will receive exactly what you aimed at–life in the presence of God (God the Son, who has all of the attributes of God the Father). You won’t have marriage, which is the way you want it to be. You won’t have a joint-heirship throne, which is the way you want it to be. You’ll have a resurrected body, and be able to do wonderful things and have joy in doing those things. It will be far better than this life.

The purpose of Mormonism “was/is” to figure out true doctrine about the Godhead, about the pre-mortal life which gives meaningful purpose and understanding to this life, about the fall of Adam and spiritual rebirth and opposition in all things toward a good end purpose, about the role of prophets and apostles, about God’s plan for those who died without hearing the gospel in this life and doing something about it as guided by revelation, and about the joint-heirship throne which Christ and John the apostle wrote about so clearly as one of the reasons for the atonement.

 

[GodIsGracious]

Hopefully, rather he might be picking up a Catechism because he has looked at the arguments for Catholicism honestly and found them to be what they are - true I admit, I have a difficult time comprehending what it would be like to come to the conclusion that my entire belief system is flawed (or that even a portion of it is flawed) simply because I can and will never come to that conclusion. It must be difficult, though. I commend anyone with the courage to find the Truth, because it takes tremendous amounts of courage to do so. It takes courage to hold on to it as well, although once you have it, you do have a bit of support from God

We can hope, pickguard.

 

[Finrock]

Good afternoon GodIsGracious! I hope you are doing well today.

hrm.

Looks like Finfrock derailed the thread with discussions of hockey. Did we get too close to showing what a fraud Joseph Smith is? I suspect so and he didn’t like it.

Is Finfrock suppose to be some reference to me? I don’t get it…

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[Religio71]

Pickguard,
I assume you haven’t read several of the other threads where I have talked about this. (That’s OK.)

My point has been that you folks have what you want in your church, and you have a belief that leads you to keep the commandments of God and live by the ideals Christ taught if you follow the Bible’s teachings. That will provide you the kind of happiness in this life that I assume you are seeking, and in the hereafter you will receive exactly what you aimed at–life in the presence of God (God the Son, who has all of the attributes of God the Father). You won’t have marriage, which is the way you want it to be. You won’t have a joint-heirship throne, which is the way you want it to be. You’ll have a resurrected body, and be able to do wonderful things and have joy in doing those things. It will be far better than this life.

The purpose of Mormonism “was/is” to figure out true doctrine about the Godhead, about the pre-mortal life which gives meaningful purpose and understanding to this life, about the fall of Adam and spiritual rebirth and opposition in all things toward a good end purpose, about the role of prophets and apostles, about God’s plan for those who died without hearing the gospel in this life and doing something about it as guided by revelation, and about the joint-heirship throne which Christ and John the apostle wrote about so clearly as one of the reasons for the atonement.

Catholics do believe that we become joint heirs in Christ.

“1265 Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte “a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become a “partaker of the divine nature,” member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit.”

 

[GodIsGracious]

Good afternoon GodIsGracious! I hope you are doing well today.

Is Finfrock suppose to be some reference to me? I don’t get it…

Kind Regards,
Finrock

Yes, and when I saw this post I winced. I did not intentially mean to misspell your name. I’m so very sorry about that. My name is kind of common but not spelled commonly and it’s so annoying to see someone quickly write my name down incorrectly without waiting for me to spell it and then THEY get annoyed because I corrected them. So I feel awful about getting your online moniker incorrect in my post.

Again, I’m terribly sorry. Finrock. I won’t forget next time.

 

[pickguard1]

My point has been that you folks have what you want in your church, and you have a belief that leads you to keep the commandments of God and live by the ideals Christ taught if you follow the Bible’s teachings. That will provide you the kind of happiness in this life that I assume you are seeking, and in the hereafter you will receive exactly what you aimed at–life in the presence of God (God the Son, who has all of the attributes of God the Father). You won’t have marriage, which is the way you want it to be. You won’t have a joint-heirship throne, which is the way you want it to be. You’ll have a resurrected body, and be able to do wonderful things and have joy in doing those things. It will be far better than this life.

I still am at a loss If we belong to a church that supposedly has suffered a complete apostasy from the true faith, how can you believe that we would receive anything other than condemnation from the Judgment Seat of Christ? Is Mormonism a completely relativist religion? I didn’t think it was. If you believe that Christ’s “orginal” teaching was perverted and suppressed by the Church (and it would have to be the Catholic Church that did this, since it ws the ONLY form of Christianity until the Tenth Century (arguably the 16th century - if you consider the Orthodox to have retained just about everything), then it follows that you must believe that what we condsider to be the fruits of following that perverted doctrine can’t be good fruits, because they wouldn’t be based on anything that was revealed by God! Rather, it follows that you should believe that we would receive God’s rebuke for having led so many souls astray from the “truth” for just about all of the Christian era! Again, I don’t think you’re being entirely honest about what you believe.

The purpose of Mormonism “was/is” to figure out true doctrine about the Godhead, about the pre-mortal life which gives meaningful purpose and understanding to this life, about the fall of Adam and spiritual rebirth and opposition in all things toward a good end purpose, about the role of prophets and apostles, about God’s plan for those who died without hearing the gospel in this life and doing something about it as guided by revelation, and about the joint-heirship throne which Christ and John the apostle wrote about so clearly as one of the reasons for the atonement.

This, however is all covered through the means of the Church. Along with your misguided doctrinal assertions in the first paragraph:

First, it would be impossible to be in the presence of God the Son and not be in the presence of also, God the Father and God the Holy Spirit because they are ONE.

Second, following the Bible’s teachings is not enough, becuase the Church came BEFORE the bible. If the early Christians wanted to pervert Christianity - why write a Bible at all? Truly if there had been an apostasy, the Bible as we know it wouldn’t exist, because it was compiled by the same people you claim deserted the faith! And yet the Bible is. If it contains the Truth - then the Church which promulgated it must also therefore contain the Truth.

Third, there is no marriage in heaven - that IS in the Bible. Mark 12:25 "25 For when they shall rise again from the dead, they shall neither marry, nor be married, but are as the angels in heaven. " It’s not the way WE want it to be, it is the way CHRIST SAID IT WOULD BE.

Fourth, as to being joint heirs with Christ, this refers to our attaining eternity in heaven with God, not becoming gods ourselves.

Fifth as for the “pre-mortal” life - there is none. The reference in the Jeremiah 1:5 " Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations." refers directly to Jeremiah himself. God knows ALL things, and knows about all creation even before he creates it. It doesn’t follow that because He knew any individual before he formed him in the womb that he formed him outisde the womb before hand. There is nothing in scripture or any Christian teaching that supports this idea. The soul is created and infused at the moment of conception - not before.

As to God’s plan for those who did not hear His Word in this life - it is just that: God’s plan. Christ didn’t instruct anyone to do anything regarding those who did not have the ability to receive the Gospel. We must leave them to the infinite mercy, justice and love of God - for we know that He always does what is merciful, just and loving.

 

[Finrock]

Yes, and when I saw this post I winced. I did not intentially mean to misspell your name. I’m so very sorry about that. My name is kind of common but not spelled commonly and it’s so annoying to see someone quickly write my name down incorrectly without waiting for me to spell it and then THEY get annoyed because I corrected them. So I feel awful about getting your online moniker incorrect in my post.

Again, I’m terribly sorry. Finrock. I won’t forget next time.

No problem. I wouldn’t have even asked or thought anything of it, except you’ve used Finfrock several times when you are seemingly addressing me.

But, no need to be sorry.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[Religio71]

Just a reminder: Mormonism believes in Three Degrees of Glory, or three Kingdoms of Heaven, the Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial. It seems that as Catholics, we would go to the Terrestrial Kingdom in the LDS view of the afterlife. So that is how we can believe in a “false church” and not receive condemnation, though the Celestial Kingdom is reserved for those that believed in and followed the LDS Gospel of Christ. This could be people that were Mormons in this life, or those that were baptized by proxy and accept the Gospel in the afterlife. So, you can still convert after death.

 

[ParkerD]

Catholics do believe that we become joint heirs in Christ.

“1265 Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte “a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become a “partaker of the divine nature,” member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit.”

Religio71,
I respect your beliefs. It does baffle me that some Catholics have such a strong disagreement with LDS about what becoming a “partaker of the divine nature” and becoming an “adopted son of God” and co-heir with Christ, mean. To partake of the divine nature, to me, means to have divine attributes and divine knowledge–joyful knowledge, loving knowledge, freeing knowledge, always-allowing-agency knowledge. Knowledge brings power only if it used correctly.

Here are the words of 1 John 3:
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

“We shall be like him” and “purifieth himself even as He is pure” seem to me to be saying that the aim is to be as pure as Christ is pure, and to become like Him. Those qualities are what qualify us, through grace, to be in the presence of the Father. To be like the Son is to be divine, to have divine qualities–not through our own efforts, but through the grace provided by Christ.

 

[ParkerD]

Pickguard,
Responses:

I still am at a loss If we belong to a church that supposedly has suffered a complete apostasy from the true faith, how can you believe that we would receive anything other than condemnation from the Judgment Seat of Christ?

Because you did good things in your life, good works, and especially because you learned how to love others and how to repent and change.

Is Mormonism a completely relativist religion?

We believe every person will receive according to their individual works and individual desires.

If you believe that Christ’s “original” teaching was perverted (I don’t use that word, ever) and suppressed by the Church (and it would have to be the Catholic Church that did this, since it was the ONLY form of Christianity until the Tenth Century (arguably the 16th century - if you consider the Orthodox to have retained just about everything), then it follows that you must believe that what we consider to be the fruits of following that perverted doctrine can’t be good fruits, because they wouldn’t be based on anything that was revealed by God!

The whole of the teaching wasn’t suppressed and changed. Wycliffe and Tyndale had a hard time getting the Bible published in English, so I agree there was suppression. I think the Catholic church has come a long way since the Second Century through the 16th Century. I think the use of the Bible has improved, and I have to assume that God is pleased with that improvement. Of course the Catholic church is based on many things that have been revealed by God.

Rather, it follows that you should believe that we would receive God’s rebuke for having led so many souls astray from the “truth” for just about all of the Christian era! Again, I don’t think you’re being entirely honest about what you believe.

The ones who would receive the rebuking would be the ones who knowingly and deliberately did the changing of the doctrine. All others are just following what they had been told by someone they trusted.

First, it would be impossible to be in the presence of God the Son and not be in the presence of also, God the Father and God the Holy Spirit because they are ONE.

But Catholics say They are separate Persons, and always emphasize that to me.

Second, following the Bible’s teachings is not enough, because the Church came BEFORE the bible. If the early Christians wanted to pervert Christianity - why write a Bible at all? Truly if there had been an apostasy, the Bible as we know it wouldn’t exist, because it was compiled by the same people you claim deserted the faith! And yet the Bible is. If it contains the Truth - then the Church which promulgated it must also therefore contain the Truth.

I simply disagree. I think people did their best in most cases, but it was inadvertant that people who had a concept in their own mind would take a word or a sentence and translate based on the concept they had in their mind. But the Bible was precious to them, as it is precious to me. I think they wanted to share it, to some degree. That’s why they would transcribe and preserve the texts.

Third, there is no marriage in heaven - that IS in the Bible. Mark 12:25 "25 For when they shall rise again from the dead, they shall neither marry, nor be married, but are as the angels in heaven. " It’s not the way WE want it to be, it is the way CHRIST SAID IT WOULD BE.

OK with me for you to believe that. Adam and Eve were married, were they not, by God?

Fifth as for the “pre-mortal” life - there is none. The reference in the Jeremiah 1:5 " Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations." refers directly to Jeremiah himself. God knows ALL things, and knows about all creation even before he creates it. It doesn’t follow that because He knew any individual before he formed him in the womb that he formed him outisde the womb before hand. There is nothing in scripture or any Christian teaching that supports this idea. The soul is created and infused at the moment of conception - not before.

I am supposing that you are aware of the argument about religious belief related to the existence of evil yet God having created all things. Mormonism refutes that argument. But I am fine that you don’t believe you existed before this life.

As to God’s plan for those who did not hear His Word in this life - it is just that: God’s plan. Christ didn’t instruct anyone to do anything regarding those who did not have the ability to receive the Gospel. We must leave them to the infinite mercy, justice and love of God - for we know that He always does what is merciful, just and loving

I like the simplicity of that belief you expressed here.

I think God has created humankind and given stewardships that only those are aware of who have those stewardships. Others simply won’t understand because they don’t have the stewardship.

 

[CJ_Nick]

I still am at a loss If we belong to a church that supposedly has suffered a complete apostasy from the true faith, how can you believe that we would receive anything other than condemnation from the Judgment Seat of Christ? Is Mormonism a completely relativist religion? I didn’t think it was. If you believe that Christ’s “orginal” teaching was perverted and suppressed by the Church (and it would have to be the Catholic Church that did this, since it ws the ONLY form of Christianity until the Tenth Century (arguably the 16th century - if you consider the Orthodox to have retained just about everything), then it follows that you must believe that what we condsider to be the fruits of following that perverted doctrine can’t be good fruits, because they wouldn’t be based on anything that was revealed by God! Rather, it follows that you should believe that we would receive God’s rebuke for having led so many souls astray from the “truth” for just about all of the Christian era! Again, I don’t think you’re being entirely honest about what you believe.

This, however is all covered through the means of the Church. Along with your misguided doctrinal assertions in the first paragraph:

First, it would be impossible to be in the presence of God the Son and not be in the presence of also, God the Father and God the Holy Spirit because they are ONE.

Second, following the Bible’s teachings is not enough, becuase the Church came BEFORE the bible. If the early Christians wanted to pervert Christianity - why write a Bible at all? Truly if there had been an apostasy, the Bible as we know it wouldn’t exist, because it was compiled by the same people you claim deserted the faith! And yet the Bible is. If it contains the Truth - then the Church which promulgated it must also therefore contain the Truth.

Third, there is no marriage in heaven - that IS in the Bible. Mark 12:25 "25 For when they shall rise again from the dead, they shall neither marry, nor be married, but are as the angels in heaven. " It’s not the way WE want it to be, it is the way CHRIST SAID IT WOULD BE.

Fourth, as to being joint heirs with Christ, this refers to our attaining eternity in heaven with God, not becoming gods ourselves.

Fifth as for the “pre-mortal” life - there is none. The reference in the Jeremiah 1:5 " Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations." refers directly to Jeremiah himself. God knows ALL things, and knows about all creation even before he creates it. It doesn’t follow that because He knew any individual before he formed him in the womb that he formed him outisde the womb before hand. There is nothing in scripture or any Christian teaching that supports this idea. The soul is created and infused at the moment of conception - not before.

As to God’s plan for those who did not hear His Word in this life - it is just that: God’s plan. Christ didn’t instruct anyone to do anything regarding those who did not have the ability to receive the Gospel. We must leave them to the infinite mercy, justice and love of God - for we know that He always does what is merciful, just and loving.

UMMM!!!

EXACTLY what he said

Peace,
CJ

 

[CJ_Nick]

Just a reminder: Mormonism believes in Three Degrees of Glory, or three Kingdoms of Heaven, the Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial. It seems that as Catholics, we would go to the Terrestrial Kingdom in the LDS view of the afterlife. So that is how we can believe in a “false church” and not receive condemnation, though the Celestial Kingdom is reserved for those that believed in and followed the LDS Gospel of Christ. This could be people that were Mormons in this life, or those that were baptized by proxy and accept the Gospel in the afterlife. So, you can still convert after death.

Hi Religio71

Not to stray off topic but since hockey has been discussed at great length, I thought this might be ok.

I see you are formerly LDS. Can you shed some light on my confusion as to the LDS beliefs of " levels " of Heaven?? What if you ( say a man ) reach the highest level and say your wife ( sealed for all eternity ) does not reach that highest level?? How can the two be sealed forever and make spirit children together if they are not even in the same place??

Thanks in advance
Peace,
CJ

 

[CJ_Nick]

Religio71,
I respect your beliefs. It does baffle me that some Catholics have such a strong disagreement with LDS about what becoming a “partaker of the divine nature” and becoming an "adopted son of God.

Hello Parker

As one of the Catholics who have such a strong disagreement with the LDS in this regard, I will offer you that your perspective is not the heart of what I take issue with. Rather, speaking for myself, I take great issue with the JS’s teaching in the King Follet Sermon which, imho, clearly teaches the potential of becoming a God of your own Earth and clearly teaches that our God was once a mere man of another Earth before he earned " God " of us.

Just thought I would offer my perspective

Peace,
CJ

 

[pickguard1]

I’ll forego all the special quote stuff here, since it would take up too much space.
Quote by ParkerDPickguard,
responses:

Quote: pickguard1:
Is Mormonism a completely relativist religion?

Parker D:We believe every person will receive according to their individual works and individual desires.

This doesn’t answer the question. Relativism regarding religion applies to whether or not you believe there is an objective and definable truth, and that following the truth is an objective necessity for salvation.

Quote: pickguard1
If you believe that Christ’s “original” teaching was perverted *(I don’t use that word, ever)-ParkerD * and suppressed by the Church (and it would have to be the Catholic Church that did this, since it was the ONLY form of Christianity until the Tenth Century (arguably the 16th century - if you consider the Orthodox to have retained just about everything), then it follows that you must believe that what we consider to be the fruits of following that perverted doctrine can’t be good fruits, because they wouldn’t be based on anything that was revealed by God!

Parker D: The whole of the teaching wasn’t suppressed and changed. Wycliffe and Tyndale had a hard time getting the Bible published in English, so I agree there was suppression. I think the Catholic church has come a long way since the Second Century through the 16th Century. I think the use of the Bible has improved, and I have to assume that God is pleased with that improvement. Of course the Catholic church is based on many things that have been revealed by God.

Wycliff and Tyndale’s bibles were suppressed for the same reason you accuse the Catholic Church/Early Christians in one of the following paragraphs - they were not interpreting it according to tradition, but to their own tastes. Without the Authority of Christ’s Church (binding and loosing) how else is the Bible preserved? This is not suppression, but faithfulness.

Pickguard1:Rather, it follows that you should believe that we would receive God’s rebuke for having led so many souls astray from the “truth” for just about all of the Christian era! Again, I don’t think you’re being entirely honest about what you believe.

Parker D: The ones who would receive the rebuking would be the ones who knowingly and deliberately did the changing of the doctrine. All others are just following what they had been told by someone they trusted.

This answer skirts around the concept of conscience. We do have the ability to discern right from wrong for ourselves, do we not? Invincible ignorance is one thing - but blind submission is another. I would submit that faithful Catholics are not blind followers of “people they trust”, but seekers of Truth, who are able to come to the conclusion that they believe what they believe because it is True, not because it has been told to them by “someone they trusted.”

Quote:
Pickguard1:First, it would be impossible to be in the presence of God the Son and not be in the presence of also, God the Father and God the Holy Spirit because they are ONE.

ParkerD: But Catholics say They are separate Persons, and always emphasize that to me.

Yes - they are Three Persons in One God - thus a mystery. This is clearly in the Bible. Christ at various times references himself in relation to God the Father and God the Holy Spirit, but also says they are one. We don’t need to understand it to believe it. And just because we don’t understand it doens’t make it false, or else Christ is a liar.

Quote:
Pickguard1: Second, following the Bible’s teachings is not enough, because the Church came BEFORE the bible. If the early Christians wanted to pervert Christianity - why write a Bible at all? Truly if there had been an apostasy, the Bible as we know it wouldn’t exist, because it was compiled by the same people you claim deserted the faith! And yet the Bible is. If it contains the Truth - then the Church which promulgated it must also therefore contain the Truth.

ParkerD: I simply disagree. I think people did their best in most cases, but it was inadvertant that people who had a concept in their own mind would take a word or a sentence and translate based on the concept they had in their mind. But the Bible was precious to them, as it is precious to me. I think they wanted to share it, to some degree. That’s why they would transcribe and preserve the texts.

I answered part of this above, but who gave us the correct text? Which is the right one? How can one know? Did Christ just leave us to blindly grasp at a vague and ambiguous picture of early Christianity? No, he gave us the Church so that we could trust that we would receive the True Gospel. Without the Church, Christ would have been effectively abandoning his Apostles and disciples. Christianity would have succumbed like a newborn babe left out in the snow.

 

[pickguard1]

Quote:
Pickguard1: Third, there is no marriage in heaven - that IS in the Bible. Mark 12:25 "25 For when they shall rise again from the dead, they shall neither marry, nor be married, but are as the angels in heaven. " It’s not the way WE want it to be, it is the way CHRIST SAID IT WOULD BE.

Parker D: OK with me for you to believe that. Adam and Eve were married, were they not, by God?

What do Adam and Eve have to do with this? They weren’t in heaven! How do you convolute this scripture to mean that there IS marriage in heaven, for heaven’s sake?!

Quote:
Pickguard1: Fifth as for the “pre-mortal” life - there is none. The reference in the Jeremiah 1:5 " Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations." refers directly to Jeremiah himself. God knows ALL things, and knows about all creation even before he creates it. It doesn’t follow that because He knew any individual before he formed him in the womb that he formed him outisde the womb before hand. There is nothing in scripture or any Christian teaching that supports this idea. The soul is created and infused at the moment of conception - not before.

Parker D: I am supposing that you are aware of the argument about religious belief related to the existence of evil yet God having created all things. Mormonism refutes that argument. But I am fine that you don’t believe you existed before this life.

Yes the One (and only one) God did create all things.The existence of evil is not a creation of God but a product of the resitence of God’s created creatures (both supernatural (angels) and natural (men) to His Will, through the use of our free will. God created all things, but he did not “create” my thoughts - they are a product of my free will to think. There is still nothing in your answer that provides evidence that human souls exist before conception.

Quote:
Picklguard1: As to God’s plan for those who did not hear His Word in this life - it is just that: God’s plan. Christ didn’t instruct anyone to do anything regarding those who did not have the ability to receive the Gospel. We must leave them to the infinite mercy, justice and love of God - for we know that He always does what is merciful, just and loving

Parker D: I like the simplicity of that belief you expressed here.

Really, all Christianity is simple, when one has faith.

I think God has created humankind and given stewardships that only those are aware of who have those stewardships. Others simply won’t understand because they don’t have the stewardship.

Stewardships of what?

 

[Religio71]

Hi Religio71

Not to stray off topic but since hockey has been discussed at great length, I thought this might be ok.

I see you are formerly LDS. Can you shed some light on my confusion as to the LDS beliefs of " levels " of Heaven?? What if you ( say a man ) reach the highest level and say your wife ( sealed for all eternity ) does not reach that highest level?? How can the two be sealed forever and make spirit children together if they are not even in the same place??

Thanks in advance
Peace,
CJ

So LDS believe in Three Degrees/Kingdoms of Heaven. The lowest is the Telestial Kingdom. This is where people that you would traditionally think go to Hell actually go. This is for people that deny Jesus Christ, the liars, sorcerers, etc. The Holy Spirit will minister to these people. Even though horrible people go here, it is still much better than this life. The Terrestrial Kingdom is the middle kingdom. This is where other Christians would theoretically end up. It is for those people that lived great lives, and even believed in Jesus Christ, but believed false doctrines, stemming from the Apostasy. Those in the Terrestrial Kingdom will be in the presence of Jesus Christ. Finally, the highest degree is the Celestial Kingdom. This is for those that lived according to the doctrines of the Restored Gospel, and made various covenants with God. You can accept the Restored Gospel in the afterlife as well, beginning with baptism by proxy in one of the LDS temples. You will be in the presence of God the Father (and presumably the Heavenly Mother), and the highest degree within the Celestial Kingdom is exaltation, where you can become like God, having spirit children, etc.

As far as sealing, well many of the complexities are left up to God in LDS belief. However it’s important to note that LDS believe that to be eternally sealed, one has to live the principles of the Restored Gospel. So it is understood that even if you go through the Endowment or Sealing, for those ordinances to have their effect, you have to live by the covenants that you make. So it is possible for the members of a sealed couple to go to different Kingdoms if they don’t live up to what they promised and professed.

 

[ParkerD]

So LDS believe in Three Degrees/Kingdoms of Heaven. The lowest is the Telestial Kingdom. This is where people that you would traditionally think go to Hell actually go, after they have suffered in Hell for a thousand years and have bowed the knee and confessed Christ and accepted His grace. This is for people that denied Jesus Christ in mortality, the liars, sorcerers, etc. The Holy Spirit will minister to these people. Even though horrible people based on their actions in mortality but who have repented go here, it is still much better than this life. The Terrestrial Kingdom is the middle kingdom. This is where other Christians would theoretically end up. It is for those people that lived great lives, and even believed in Jesus Christ, but believed INCOMPLETE doctrines, stemming from the Apostasy. Those in the Terrestrial Kingdom will be in the presence of Jesus Christ.

Finally, the highest degree is the Celestial Kingdom. This is for those that lived according to the doctrines of the Restored Gospel, and made various covenants with God. You can accept the Restored Gospel in the afterlife as well, beginning with baptism by proxy in one of the LDS temples. You will be in the presence of God the Father (and presumably the Heavenly Mother), and the highest degree within the Celestial Kingdom is exaltation, where you can become like God, having spirit children, etc.

As far as sealing, well many of the complexities are left up to God in LDS belief. However it’s important to note that LDS believe that to be eternally sealed, one has to live the principles of the Restored Gospel. So it is understood that even if you go through the Endowment or Sealing, for those ordinances to have their effect, you have to live by the covenants that you make. So it is possible for the members of a sealed couple to go to different Kingdoms if they don’t live up to what they promised and professed.

Religio71 and CJNick,
I have underlined some changes I thought were important to point out from what Religio71 typed.

 

[ParkerD]

Hello Parker

As one of the Catholics who have such a strong disagreement with the LDS in this regard, I will offer you that your perspective is not the heart of what I take issue with. Rather, speaking for myself, I take great issue with the JS’s teaching in the King Follet Sermon which, imho, clearly teaches the potential of becoming a God of your own Earth and clearly teaches that our God was once a mere man of another Earth before he earned " God " of us.

Just thought I would offer my perspective

Peace,
CJ

CJ Nick,
I’ve posted comments about that last sentence several times on other threads. Joseph Smith said God the Father was once a man just like Jesus Christ was once a man, and I take that to mean that both have always been perfectly perfect.