Could smith have been a true prophet from god?

[ParkerD]

Yes, you are correct. St. Paul’s letters are always written to either admonish or praise the works/circumstances of the churches established in various places. But that doesn’t change the fact that St. Paul made no qualifications regarding proscribing ANY Gospel other than what had already been received.

If the people had remained faithfull to what he had preached to them, no letters of admonision would have been necessary, but since there were false doctrines creeping in, he felt he had to make it absolutely clear what they should NOT do, and that is accept any other gospel than what he had preached.

I agree totally.

 

[ParkerD]

swplan,
I’ll try again…

One of the most difficult things to swallow about the LDS Church and the Book of Mormon is the racism that so obviously exists within it.

That becomes an issue for some people not understanding the text, which talks about a mark of differentiation that only applied to those people at that time.

LDS believe in a white Jesus. (NO) Its not bad if Jesus was white, but people from that part of the world were not white.

Jesus was clearly Jewish, descending from the tribe of Judah through His mother, Mary. I think He looked similar to all of the other Jews around Jerusalem.

LDS believe that white Jews emigrated from Israel to South America and thrived as a community building a huge empire. They warred against each other and as a result, one Jewish tribe was punished by God as He turned the skin of the bad people dark while the good people were let with white skin.

No. LDS believe that a family from the tribe of Manasseh and also a group from the tribe of Judah through one of the sons of king Zedekiah, emigrated by divine intervention instead of being captured by the Babylonians soon after 600 BC, to somewhere in the Americas. They had much dissension among them, but had prophets to warn them to repent and to learn about Jesus Christ and also to understand why they kept the law of Moses. All of the people eventually became wicked and most of the warring factions destroyed each other or were taken over by outside forces. Some descendants of some of these groups have survived to today, but they have legends rather than records that document their history. The prophets preserved their teachings and some of their history on gold-leaf metal plates.

Several times during the history, the Lamanites (darker skinned) were more righteous and good than the Nephites. The skin colors were neither a curse nor a blessing.

Its surprising to me that God would use the color of a person’s skin to shame them.

I agree. He didn’t.

Something else that is a surprise to me is that these Jews were wiped out and there is no trace of them, but J Smith was led to their book. This is not how God operates in relationship with His people. He keeps His covenants with them. Abraham seemed to have no heir in site, even with the promise that God would make his decendents “like the stars” and God did - Jews are still alive today. Christians are still here. These Jews in the book of Mormon did not survive - God did not protect them. Not characteristic of God.

If you’ll read Isaiah and Hosea, you’ll read that God “hid” many of the descendents of the tribes of Israel throughout the world, and some will come to know of their ancestry during the latter days. The Book of Mormon is written mostly to those people.

Is it true that the LDS believes or believed that Adam is God?

Absolutely not–untrue.

Is it true that the LDS believes that Jesus and Satan are brothers?

Jesus was the Firstborn Spirit Son of God. Satan was a fallen angel, rebellious against God.

Is it true that the LDS believes that our ultimate goal is to become gods? Does this mean that we will get our own planets and even our own followers/worshipers/religion?

Those who become joint-heirs with Christ inherit the kind of throne He rightfully inherits, through His gift of grace to them. Christ created this earth. We will always worship God the Father and Jesus Christ.

Is it true that the LDS believes that the afterlife is all about building our own celestial kingdom where we will be with the family we are “sealed to” on earth?

The celestial kingdom will be a place where families are together forever, and where there will be work to do, yes.

Jesus was the Son of Mary by the power of the Holy Ghost. He was the divine Son of Heavenly Father, which gave Him power over death and the power to suffer the atonement’s excruciating pain. We owe Him our all–every person who has ever lived owes Him our every ounce of gratitude for what He did for us because He loves us.

 

[zerinus]

I’m sorry you have an issue with my approach - and you are correct in that I don’t fully understand all LDS teachings (this is actually the first discussion I’ve ever had with ANY Mormons regarding their religion, so please excuse the gaps in my knowledge. I was merely pointing out what I thought I understood - apparently I am mistaken.

There is nothing wrong with not understanding something provided to try to understand first before criticizing. We understand first and criticize later, not criticize first and understand later.

I am however, not mistaken about how the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory works, nor what scriptures the Church has always used to back that doctrine up. It is one thing to criticize my knowledge of Mormonism, and yet another to lump in any misunderstandings there along with the Church’s teaching (not my opinion) about Purgatory.

Not sure what you meant by that.

I leave the rest for later (maybe) but this last one is easy - because Jesus commanded it. He never did so regarding “baptism of the dead.”

He did however say, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved” (Mark 16:16); and, “Except a man be born of water and of the spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (John 3:5).

 

[swplan76]

Jesus was clearly Jewish, descending from the tribe of Judah through His mother, Mary. I think He looked similar to all of the other Jews around Jerusalem.

So, then Jesus wasn’t a white guy?.. Right?

Hey Parker,

You didn’t answer some of my questions - why is that?

 

[swplan76]

That becomes an issue for some people not understanding the text, which talks about a mark of differentiation that only applied to those people at that time.

Hmmm…

I’ll have to look into that.

Isn’t that the reason used to keep brown people from becoming members?

One of the presidents of the LDS before the 70s said something along the lines of, “black people are on this earth only so Satan can have some representation here.” (not an exact quote I don’t think). That may not be the D&C, but if its from the mouth of one of the presidents of the church, that is a pretty big deal right?

 

[zerinus]

Yes, you are right, the dispensation is biblical - in that the “fullness of times” is in reference to the Incarnation of Christ. i.e. the New Testament, not some later testament. Paul here is referencing their own immediate timeframe.

Actually he is talking of a future event. It is a prophecy of the future, the same as in this verse:

Acts 3:

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

They are both talking about the same things.

 

[rinnie]

swplan,
I’ll try again…

That becomes an issue for some people not understanding the text, which talks about a mark of differentiation that only applied to those people at that time.

Jesus was clearly Jewish, descending from the tribe of Judah through His mother, Mary. I think He looked similar to all of the other Jews around Jerusalem.

No. LDS believe that a family from the tribe of Manasseh and also a group from the tribe of Judah through one of the sons of king Zedekiah, emigrated by divine intervention instead of being captured by the Babylonians soon after 600 BC, to somewhere in the Americas. They had much dissension among them, but had prophets to warn them to repent and to learn about Jesus Christ and also to understand why they kept the law of Moses. All of the people eventually became wicked and most of the warring factions destroyed each other or were taken over by outside forces. Some descendants of some of these groups have survived to today, but they have legends rather than records that document their history. The prophets preserved their teachings and some of their history on gold-leaf metal plates.

Several times during the history, the Lamanites (darker skinned) were more righteous and good than the Nephites. The skin colors were neither a curse nor a blessing.

I agree. He didn’t.

If you’ll read Isaiah and Hosea, you’ll read that God “hid” many of the descendents of the tribes of Israel throughout the world, and some will come to know of their ancestry during the latter days. The Book of Mormon is written mostly to those people.

Absolutely not–untrue.

Jesus was the Firstborn Spirit Son of God. Satan was a fallen angel, rebellious against God.

Those who become joint-heirs with Christ inherit the kind of throne He rightfully inherits, through His gift of grace to them. Christ created this earth. We will always worship God the Father and Jesus Christ.

The celestial kingdom will be a place where families are together forever, and where there will be work to do, yes.

Jesus was the Son of Mary by the power of the Holy Ghost. He was the divine Son of Heavenly Father, which gave Him power over death and the power to suffer the atonement’s excruciating pain. We owe Him our all–every person who has ever lived owes Him our every ounce of gratitude for what He did for us because He loves us.

Also Jesus is all color’s all races. The bible tells us he made man in his image. That mean’s everyone is from God. And a part of God. We all came from on God. We are brothers and Sisters with the same Mother and Father. If we could all just come together as one faith that would be awesome. The Church started out as One. Every year one Church closes eventually we will back to the same Church. The Sheep will all come back to the original fold. That will be wonderful. Then we can all celebrate together. That’s when our Father will celebrate also because all of his children have come home. We are all Gods Children and he loves us all.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Actually he is talking of a future event. It is a prophecy of the future, the same as in this verse:
Acts 3:

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.They are both talking about the same things.

A dispensation is a divine ordering of affairs. It is a plan. There is one plan revealed by Jesus Christ and taught by the Apostles. The scripture passages are talking about the same thing. One divine ordering. One plan. You can see this clearly in verse 21.

God has spoken of His plan “since the world began”. It is taught in the OT and NT. Of course, you would need to understand and accept the truth of Original sin to understand what restitution is being made. As it is, you are groping in the dark.

 

[Finrock]

HI pickguard!

thanks for answering the question. This is a reasonable explanation for how such a situation would be dealt with.

You’re welcome.

I still have a problem with it though, in light of your explanation. If scripture is to be the guide, why is it so easily accepted that Joseph Smith needed an entirely new scripture to prop up his claims of revelation? Why was this revelation not rejected on the same grounds that say, Islam would be rejected - by the way, what do Mormons think about Islam?

Part of the answer to this is in my previous post, but I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to expand on this a bit more. One of the central messages of the LDS church is that it is a restoration of the ancient church of Jesus Christ. To restore means to bring back. Mormons believe that it was through Joseph Smith that God restored His priesthood authority to earth, but also God restored doctrines that were lost or changed over time. This would necessitate what would appear to be new scripture, when really it is simply bringing back lost scripture. Mormons believe that the Book of Mormon is really just another testament of Jesus Christ. It and the Bible go hand-in-hand. They are intended to compliment each other and witness of each other. Mormons believe that the Book of Mormon contains the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as the Bible does. Most non-Mormons would find many parts of the Book of Mormon familiar. I should probably point out, for clarities sake, that I am making a distinction here between the “gospel of Jesus Christ” and “doctrine”. All of the gospel of Jesus Christ is doctrine, but not all doctrine is the gospel of Jesus Christ. The Doctrine and Covenants is the book of scripture that contains the bulk of what Mormons believe to be some of the doctrine that was lost during the apostasy.

The other part, which I had mentioned in my previous post, is that a prophet is entitled to receive “new” revelation. The President of the Church is the only person who can receive revelation that might supercede previous revelation. Examples in Mormon history would be when revelation was received to discontinue the practice of plural marriage or to extend the priesthood to all worthy males (African-American male members were banned from holding the priesthood prior to this revelation). I also qualified this statement by stating that even the President of the Church has a pattern given in scripture, however, before a new revelation becomes binding doctrine on the members. I don’t expect you to know all of these caveats, of course, so I don’t blame you for missing this point.

This official response from the Church, though not directly related to your questions, might be helpful in understanding how and what constitutes binding doctrine in the LDS church:

“Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted” (newsroom.lds.org, Emphasis added).

Although I am aware of no specific official declaration as far as any other religion is concerned, including Islam, I believe the 11th Article of Faith would give you the Mormon perspective in regards to all other faiths:

“We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.”

The Second Counselor in the First Presidency of the Church, Dieter F. Uchdorf, recently spoke to this issue. I quote him below for further perspective:

“We honor and respect sincere souls from all religions, no matter where or when they lived, who have loved God, even without having the fullness of the gospel. We lift our voices in gratitude for their selflessness and courage. We embrace them as brothers and sisters, children of our Heavenly Father. … He hears the prayers of the humble and sincere of every nation, tongue, and people. He grants light to those who seek and honor Him and are willing to obey His commandments” (see here for full article).

I hope this was helpful in answering your questions. If I missed your point, please let me know.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[swplan76]

I admire the movement of the LDS church. Prosecuted, hated, they made their way across the US to Utah. They survived under extreme odds against them. Its an amazing story - their survival. Really, its understandable how they would have a real sense of unity and identity. All the details of their first few generations are amazing.

 

[ParkerD]

I admire the movement of the LDS church. Prosecuted, hated, they made their way across the US to Utah. They survived under extreme odds against them. Its an amazing story - their survival. Really, its understandable how they would have a real sense of unity and identity. All the details of their first few generations are amazing.

swplan,
Thanks for this kind comment.

In answer to your earlier comment/question, anyone anywhere in the world can study about the LDS church and be a member if they are sincere in that desire (unless in prison–then they would need to wait until released). All races, all nationalities. There are over a million Latin American members of the LDS church, and nearly a million blacks.

No president of the LDS church said what you had attributed in your comment. Any LDS leaders of the past who had personal racial biases were clearly wrong and had a misunderstanding as well as misjudged a group of people who are every bit as loved by God as anyone, as everyone.

 

[swplan76]

In Nauvoo, as JS rose in power having created a thriving community, that is when polygamy started right?

Did He start if before or after he told everyone that it had come to him through a revelation from God?

I’ve been told that he was told to start polygamy in order to provide protection for all the women whose husbands had died along the way.

I was also told that he had been ‘sealed’ to women who were married to other men - is this true?

JS had a large number of wives - 27, 33? I can’t remember. Amazing!

If God wanted JS to protect the women, why did they have to marry men, why couldn’t they just be brought under their protection in another formal way? Why couldn’t God lead more men to the church as a solution to the problem?

The country put pressure for the LDS to put a stop to polygamy, so they did. Atleast that is how it seems. Why would God want them to put a stop to something He ordained? Maybe the shortage of men was over by that time.

From my perspective JS was a great story teller - he knew how to keep an audience. He had very little to begin with, but as things went on, he gained more power than he could have imagined. With that power came admiration. JS found that he could have quite a few more sexual partners if he wished and as happens with many powerful men, they use their power inappropriately. In this case, with JS, he had revelation at his disposal, so he told so story about how God decided it would be good and then he dove into it. He even married some women he wasn’t sexually active with, who were older women, just to give polygamy the appearance of being done out of a desire to take care of women who were in need. Thats how it appears to me. Was he a true prophet, or was he after profit?

It could be the same as with Islam - the angel who brought revelations was a liar, not from God, but Satan himself… could be… God knows. I don’t.

 

[ParkerD]

swplan,
I didn’t have time to answer all your questions in one post. I agree that Jesus “wasn’t white-skinned.”

Is it true that the LDS believes that God lives on a planet in a distant galaxy?

I personally am drawn to the “string theory” concept of universes, in which case God lives in our universe but can also be outside of it. He has more dimensions than we have, seeing the future as well as the past and present in His omniscience. We believe He does live as a physical and spiritual corporeal, resurrected personage on a perfected planet.

Does this mean that we will get our own planets and even our own followers/worshipers/religion?

Truth is eternal and exists throughout the universe, including religious truth. I don’t think we know enough about being a joint heir with Christ to know what that means in detail such as your question implied. I don’t have a personal concept that I would ever be a "Heavenly Father’ who would be worshipped. One who can eventually help create an earth, yes. One who can quality to have spirit children who can also learn and grow by living on an earth, yes. That is what is meant by eternal progression.

 

[EyesWideShut]

No Man, who had 33 wives,
That were sisters, mothers, and daughters
Can be a prophet. It is sick and depraved in every sense of the word.
Joseph smith was simply a smooth talker like Adolf Hitler was.

The only reason he started Mormonism to begin with was because he couldn’t wrap his mind around the truth. So since he could not accept the fact a bigger force was at work, he made a nice fairytale and changed a few things so he could get what he want.

And he did, what pervert wouldn’t want his own harem of ‘wives’ that god ‘commanded’ him to have.

 

[EyesWideShut]

swplan,
I didn’t have time to answer all your questions in one post. I agree that Jesus “wasn’t white-skinned.”

I personally am drawn to the “string theory” concept of universes, in which case God lives in our universe but can also be outside of it. He has more dimensions than we have, seeing the future as well as the past and present in His omniscience. We believe He does live as a physical and spiritual corporeal, resurrected personage on a perfected planet.

Truth is eternal and exists throughout the universe, including religious truth. I don’t think we know enough about being a joint heir with Christ to know what that means in detail such as your question implied. I don’t have a personal concept that I would ever be a "Heavenly Father’ who would be worshipped. One who can eventually help create an earth, yes. One who can quality to have spirit children who can also learn and grow by living on an earth, yes. That is what is meant by eternal progression.

So outside all the fancy wording, yes. You will be A god, be better than him, and have your own world and such. You and your many wives will populate it, and just like in this world you’ll have to send down ‘jesus’. Or at least that is what Mormons believe.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I’ve been told that he was told to start polygamy in order to provide protection for all the women whose husbands had died along the way.

The whole “shortage of men” is a lie told to people as an excuse for mormon polygamy. Utah census records from the time show there was no more disparity in the ratio of men to women than there was in the rest of the country. ie, left to the natural order of things, it is as God designed, pretty close to 50/50.This myth also does not account for the fact that most of the polygamous marriages were to women/girls who had never been married before. And it doesn’t account for the fact that women died along the way as well. It isn’t like a large group of women arrived in Utah without husbands, and/or single, eligible batchelors didn’t exist.

 

[swplan76]

swplan,
I didn’t have time to answer all your questions in one post. I agree that Jesus “wasn’t white-skinned.”

I personally am drawn to the “string theory” concept of universes, in which case God lives in our universe but can also be outside of it. He has more dimensions than we have, seeing the future as well as the past and present in His omniscience. We believe He does live as a physical and spiritual corporeal, resurrected personage on a perfected planet.

Truth is eternal and exists throughout the universe, including religious truth. I don’t think we know enough about being a joint heir with Christ to know what that means in detail such as your question implied. I don’t have a personal concept that I would ever be a "Heavenly Father’ who would be worshipped. One who can eventually help create an earth, yes. One who can quality to have spirit children who can also learn and grow by living on an earth, yes. That is what is meant by eternal progression.

You should check ‘Everything is Spiritual’ by Rob Bell. Rob Bell is a pastor of a non-denominational church. They have people from all different denominations come and speak at their church. A nun was there a while back. I’m not aware of any LDS connections ( ). ‘Everything is Spiritual’ is Rob on tour. The bulk of the talk is about various scientific theories which are bookended with some theological reflections/connections. String theory is one that is discussed.

 

[SM26]

i think when saying that LDS believe that God has a body of flesh and bones, we’re referring to God the Father, and not Jesus Christ.

For our LDS friends. How is it the jesus is “seated at the right hand of the father” if jesus, because he was never married, is not with God the Father in the “Celestial Kingdom” but in the lower level of heaven known as the “Terrestrial kindom”,if i got that right? Please explain, and also, how is this in any way a Christian belief?

“God Bless even the Wicked and Ignorant”
(me).

 

[swplan76]

swplan,
I didn’t have time to answer all your questions in one post. I agree that Jesus “wasn’t white-skinned.”

I personally am drawn to the “string theory” concept of universes, in which case God lives in our universe but can also be outside of it. He has more dimensions than we have, seeing the future as well as the past and present in His omniscience. We believe He does live as a physical and spiritual corporeal, resurrected personage on a perfected planet.

Truth is eternal and exists throughout the universe, including religious truth. I don’t think we know enough about being a joint heir with Christ to know what that means in detail such as your question implied. I don’t have a personal concept that I would ever be a "Heavenly Father’ who would be worshipped. One who can eventually help create an earth, yes. One who can quality to have spirit children who can also learn and grow by living on an earth, yes. That is what is meant by eternal progression.

I think your response is just pointing at some of the ideas where LDS and the rest of Christianity are really very different.

“We believe He does live as a physical and spiritual corporeal, resurrected personage on a perfected planet.”

He’s out there on… the planet has a name… what is it?

"I don’t have a personal concept that I would ever be a “Heavenly Father’ who would be worshipped. One who can eventually help create an earth, yes. One who can quality to have spirit children who can also learn and grow by living on an earth, yes. That is what is meant by eternal progression.”
- “One” a god. A god who can create and have children. A god who can build his own kingdom… yes?

I don’t want to be offensive, honestly, but isn’t that what Satan was after too? I can understand this being very painful to face, but isn’t it possible that JS recieved his revelations from Satan?

 

[ParkerD]

For our LDS friends. How is it the jesus is “seated at the right hand of the father” if jesus, because he was never married, is not with God the Father in the “Celestial Kingdom” but in the lower level of heaven known as the “Terrestrial kindom”,if i got that right? Please explain, and also, how is this in any way a Christian belief?

(1) Jesus was already exalted before He was born. He descended from on high. He returned to His exalted station, after He was resurrected. He lives with God the Father, and will visit the Terrestrial Kingdom from time to time but will not live there all the time.

(2) I have no idea whether Jesus will be married in eternity. He may have a different role than that, just as He had a different role on this earth and before the creation of this earth. I think all Christians believe Jesus lives with God the Father.