Could smith have been a true prophet from god?

[planten]

In Nauvoo, as JS rose in power having created a thriving community, that is when polygamy started right?

Did He start if before or after he told everyone that it had come to him through a revelation from God?

I’ve been told that he was told to start polygamy in order to provide protection for all the women whose husbands had died along the way.

I was also told that he had been ‘sealed’ to women who were married to other men - is this true?

JS had a large number of wives - 27, 33? I can’t remember. Amazing!

If God wanted JS to protect the women, why did they have to marry men, why couldn’t they just be brought under their protection in another formal way? Why couldn’t God lead more men to the church as a solution to the problem?

The country put pressure for the LDS to put a stop to polygamy, so they did. Atleast that is how it seems. Why would God want them to put a stop to something He ordained? Maybe the shortage of men was over by that time.

From my perspective JS was a great story teller - he knew how to keep an audience. He had very little to begin with, but as things went on, he gained more power than he could have imagined. With that power came admiration. JS found that he could have quite a few more sexual partners if he wished and as happens with many powerful men, they use their power inappropriately. In this case, with JS, he had revelation at his disposal, so he told so story about how God decided it would be good and then he dove into it. He even married some women he wasn’t sexually active with, who were older women, just to give polygamy the appearance of being done out of a desire to take care of women who were in need. Thats how it appears to me. Was he a true prophet, or was he after profit?

It could be the same as with Islam - the angel who brought revelations was a liar, not from God, but Satan himself… could be… God knows. I don’t.

**swplan, the last line pf your post has spoiled all your show. You are either a LIAR or a completely un-informed person. You have no knowledge of any religion. All your talk about the mormons is also worthless, has no value.

Try to remember that ever since mankind achieved some status (Adam), angels have been coming to the prophets (even to non-prophets). Guidance was given to all nations of the world, not only to the Jews and the christians. God is the God of all creation, not only the God of the Jews and christians. Please try to set some basic principles straight and then proceed with your lectures. Thanks.

I may remind you that in this age (1850 A.D.) it was the christianity which needed guidance more than any one else. Christianity had spread all over the world with extra ordinary effort of the church ( not due to it being the true religion). It was not the roght faith. Who knows Joseph Smith may have been sent as warner to the christians and as a sign to inform them of a better way to God.
swplan, you should have restricted your remarks to the mormons only and not led yourself (ventured) into the most honorable God’s revealed religious field of Islam.

**

 

[ParkerD]

swplan,
Hi again…

I think your response is just pointing at some of the ideas where LDS and the rest of Christianity are really very different.

“We believe He does live as a physical and spiritual corporeal, resurrected personage on a perfected planet.”

He’s out there on… the planet has a name… what is it?

You may have heard of a “planet” called Kolob, which is supposedly near where Heavenly Father dwells, but since He can move at will throughout the universe I see little importance in the “name” of a planet where He might reside.

"I don’t have a personal concept that I would ever be a “Heavenly Father’ who would be worshipped. One who can eventually help create an earth, yes. One who can quality to have spirit children who can also learn and grow by living on an earth, yes. That is what is meant by eternal progression.”

• “One” a god. A god who can create and have children. A god who can build his own kingdom… yes?

The huge distinction is your use of the words “his own kingdom”. NO–it is all under the authority, power, and guidance of God the Father and Jesus Christ. I would say it is more like a jointly-held “kingdom” (kingdoms) for the joint heirs with Christ to have the same kind of joy and unconditional love He and the Father have through granting free agency to spirits and guiding their growth in righteousness.

I don’t want to be offensive, honestly, but isn’t that what Satan was after too?

Satan wanted to usurp God’s power and still seeks to do so. He wanted to implement a “cheap imitation” plan whereby he would get immediate glory, supplant Heavenly Father and His Beloved Son, force everyone to obey his rule and supposedly never make any mistakes (which was an absolute impossibility anyway), and thus rule the heavens and the earth. Some plan. I suppose he was persuasive, but mostly it would seem because spirits either didn’t trust their own ability to choose rightly in life, or they listened to his flattery that he would make them rulers right away.

Satan is totally against the free agency of any spirit or soul. He seeks to rule by force.

Joseph Smith taught the exact opposite of that. He taught, “I teach [the people] correct principles, and they govern themselves.”

 

[SM26]

(1) Jesus was already exalted before He was born. He descended from on high. He returned to His exalted station, after He was resurrected. He lives with God the Father, and will visit the Terrestrial Kingdom from time to time but will not live there all the time.

So where does jesus “live” now since the 3 different heavens will not come into effect untill after the final judgement

 

[zaffiroborant]

Truth is eternal and exists throughout the universe, including religious truth. I don’t think we know enough about being a joint heir with Christ to know what that means in detail such as your question implied.** I don’t have a personal concept that I would ever be a "Heavenly Father’ who would be worshipped**. One who can eventually help create an earth, yes. One who can quality to have spirit children who can also learn and grow by living on an earth, yes. That is what is meant by eternal progression.

But the Gospel Principles manual says the following
*
“They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family.”*

So if you have spirit children they will have the same relationship with you as you do with the Heavenly Father. I’m going to go ahead and assume you worship the Heavenly Father as part of your relationship. So it looks like if you manage (and only some do) to get to the point of having spirit children being worshiped is part of the program.

 

[Finrock]

Good evening SM26. It is a pleasure to meet you!

So where does jesus “live” now since the 3 different heavens will not come into effect untill after the final judgement

I’m not sure how relevant such a question is, but scripture tells us Jesus is in Heaven (see Gen. 28:12; Ps. 11:4; Matt. 6:9; 3 Ne. 12:45). But, being as Jesus is omnipotent (D&C 19:1-3) and omnipresent (D&C 88:7-13) through His spirit, does it really matter where He is?

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[dianaiad]

What you don’t understand is that when Jesus arrived, Christians were called to follow what is in the New Testament. He came to fulfill the prophecies and correct previous misconceptions. To be a Christian is to follow Jesus Christ.

BTW, could you please have more reverence for our Lord Jesus Christ and his Blessed Mother? I swear, every time I see one of your posts it is like I can hear yet another lash of the whip on Jesus.

At this point, there is no telling what Mormons claim.

Alisha, I believe that Jesus is the Christ, my Savior and my Lord; He was sent here to redeem us, to teach us and to fulfill the law of Moses.

The fact that I do not believe that His divinity would be affected by his mother’s being a wife in full…and possible mother of other children does not affect that belief, or affect His role.

Nor would finding out that He was married—or that He was not married. My testimony of Him is based upon what we know of Him, not on a set of demands that I put upon Him.

I admire and respect Mary above all other women–but reverence is something I reserve for her Son and His Father.

Nor would my opinion of Christ Himself be altered in any way if I found out that He either was, or was not, married. He doesn’t have to live up to MY expectations of Him, after all…it’s quite the other way around.

So if you think that I lack ‘reverence,’ perhaps you should look to your own demands upon God; is He God only when He lives up to your standards? Or is He God because He is God, and the standards are His?

 

[dianaiad]

No Man, who had 33 wives,
That were sisters, mothers, and daughters
Can be a prophet. It is sick and depraved in every sense of the word.
Joseph smith was simply a smooth talker like Adolf Hitler was.

The only reason he started Mormonism to begin with was because he couldn’t wrap his mind around the truth. So since he could not accept the fact a bigger force was at work, he made a nice fairytale and changed a few things so he could get what he want.

And he did, what pervert wouldn’t want his own harem of ‘wives’ that god ‘commanded’ him to have.

Ah, Godwin’s law raises its inevitable, ugly head…

 

[dianaiad]

For our LDS friends. How is it the jesus is “seated at the right hand of the father” if jesus, because he was never married, is not with God the Father in the “Celestial Kingdom” but in the lower level of heaven known as the “Terrestrial kindom”,if i got that right? Please explain, and also, how is this in any way a Christian belief?

“God Bless even the Wicked and Ignorant”
(me).

He may be in charge of that Kingdom, but isn’t stuck there. How’s that for simplicity of response?

I will admit that you have actually come up with a new one on me. For that alone you are refreshing…

 

[dianaiad]

swplan,
Hi again…

You may have heard of a “planet” called Kolob, which is supposedly near where Heavenly Father dwells, but since He can move at will throughout the universe I see little importance in the “name” of a planet where He might reside.

Uhmn… Parker? Kolob is a star, not a planet…just being picky, I know, but still…

"I don’t have a personal concept that I would ever be a “Heavenly Father’ who would be worshipped. One who can eventually help create an earth, yes. One who can quality to have spirit children who can also learn and grow by living on an earth, yes. That is what is meant by eternal progression.”

The huge distinction is your use of the words “his own kingdom”. NO–it is all under the authority, power, and guidance of God the Father and Jesus Christ. I would say it is more like a jointly-held “kingdom” (kingdoms) for the joint heirs with Christ to have the same kind of joy and unconditional love He and the Father have through granting free agency to spirits and guiding their growth in righteousness.

Satan wanted to usurp God’s power and still seeks to do so. He wanted to implement a “cheap imitation” plan whereby he would get immediate glory, supplant Heavenly Father and His Beloved Son, force everyone to obey his rule and supposedly never make any mistakes (which was an absolute impossibility anyway), and thus rule the heavens and the earth. Some plan. I suppose he was persuasive, but mostly it would seem because spirits either didn’t trust their own ability to choose rightly in life, or they listened to his flattery that he would make them rulers right away.

Satan is totally against the free agency of any spirit or soul. He seeks to rule by force.

Joseph Smith taught the exact opposite of that. He taught, “I teach [the people] correct principles, and they govern themselves.”

 

[Finrock]

Good evening zaffiroborant. I hope you’ve been doing good!

But the Gospel Principles manual says the following
*
“They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father.* They will be an eternal family.”

So if you have spirit children they will have the same relationship with you as you do with the Heavenly Father. I’m going to go ahead and assume you worship the Heavenly Father as part of your relationship. So it looks like if you manage (and only some do) to get to the point of having spirit children being worshiped is part of the program.

I was re-reading the Gospel Principles manual, chapter 47, which is the chapter on exaltation (where you got your quote from, obviously). One thing to keep in mind is that like most Church teacher’s manuals, by design, they give general principles to discuss in class, without providing detailed description of what each point actually means. I don’t mention this to take away from anything you’ve posted, but simply to show that many of these points can and are understood differently by different members of the Church.

Personally, I take them at pretty much face value. Here is the complete list of main points from the section, “Blessings of Exaltation”:

*"Our Heavenly Father is perfect. However, he is not jealous of his wisdom and perfection. He glories in the fact that it is possible for his children to become like him. He has said, “This is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39).

Those who receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ will receive special blessings. The Lord has promised, “All things are theirs” (D&C 76:59). These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:

1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76).
2. They will become gods.
3. They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family.
4. They will receive a fulness of joy.
5. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge. President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to his commandments. They shall increase in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fulness of the perfect day shall burst upon them” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:36)."*

The concept of exaltation feels wonderful and right to me, but I can’t say that my limited mind can wrap itself around it. I don’t know what all of this means, so it is hard to speak to it in any detail. This is largely due to the fact that we only have pieces of the “puzzle”, so to speak, revealed in scripture. This doctrine, in my opinion, falls in to the category of important to know, but not necessary. If we stick to the basics (faith in Jesus Christ, repentence, obedience, scripture study, prayer, etc.) we’ll do just fine and we’ll figure these things out sooner or later.

To answer your point specifically. All I can say is that if point 3 means that we will have spirit children who will worship us, and this is what God the Father wants, then I’m going to go with what God wants.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[Finrock]

Good evening dianaiad. I hope you’ve had a great day today!

Uhmn… Parker? Kolob is a star, not a planet…just being picky, I know, but still…

I was going to make that same point, actually, that Kolob is “[t]he star nearest the throne of God” (Abr. 3:2-3,9; Guide to the Scriptures).

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[zaffiroborant]

For our LDS friends. How is it the jesus is “seated at the right hand of the father” if jesus, because he was never married, is not with God the Father in the “Celestial Kingdom” but in the lower level of heaven known as the “Terrestrial kindom”,if i got that right? Please explain, and also, how is this in any way a Christian belief?

“God Bless even the Wicked and Ignorant”
(me).

And then there is the Holy Spirit(Ghost) who is consigned to the lowest level the Telestial. Why is the HS such a lowly God that only deserves to operate in the lowest level of heaven?

 

[Finrock]

And then there is the Holy Spirit(Ghost) who is consigned to the lowest level the Telestial. Why is the HS such a lowly God that only deserves to operate in the lowest level of heaven?

This is a misunderstanding of the degrees of glory. The Holy Sprit is not “consigned” to the Telestial kingdom, but rather those of the lowest degree will only have the privledge of being ministered to by the Holy Ghost.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[ParkerD]

Uhmn… Parker? Kolob is a star, not a planet…just being picky, I know, but still…

Dianaiad,
Oops! Thanks. (I just don’t spend any time thinking about such things.)

 

[RebeccaJ]

Finrock, if a person is “consigned” to only the Holy Spirit, the reality is that you are saying the Holy Spirit is something less. I know this because I know that mormons teach that you have to be perfect to be in the presence of God the Father. You do not have this belief for the Holy Spirit.

Outside of that, there is no Christian thought that divides God such as this. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are GOD. To know one Person of the Holy Trinity is to know God.

So either the telestial or terrestial kingdom is a form of hell, because you have separated people from God. Or, there is one heaven that you have given three names (for no other reason than to create a divine caste system). This is found nowhere in the Bible. Jesus taught two possiblities, several times. His flock will be divided into two. Sheep on the right, goats on the left. People will be judged as righteous, and to be with God (heaven), or not (hell). There is not a 3rd or 4th possibility given by Jesus or the Apostles, anywhere.

 

[ParkerD]

But the Gospel Principles manual says the following
*
“They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father.* They will be an eternal family.”

So if you have spirit children they will have the same relationship with you as you do with the Heavenly Father. I’m going to go ahead and assume you worship the Heavenly Father as part of your relationship. So it looks like if you manage (and only some do) to get to the point of having spirit children being worshiped is part of the program.

Zaffiroborant,
I can see your point, but for me personally I take the scriptures as they are and use the manuals as supplementary to the scriptures. Christ’s example was that He worshiped God the Father, even though He was God the Son. I feel the desire to learn to love like they love, to give agency that allows freedom of each soul for their own development as they do, to discern the true intents of the heart of each soul as they do, to be creative as they are, to rejoice in the progress of spirits and souls as they do, but I feel not a whit’s inclination to ever think I would want to be worshiped, so I feel like even spirit children who are organized into spirits in the future will worship Heavenly Father as the Supreme Ruler of the universe. It just makes more sense to me.

 

[MissMichal]

Bill,
Everything Joseph Smith taught agrees with the Bible. But when Peter announced that the gospel was going to be preached to the Gentiles and they were not going to be circumsized but were going to be baptized, that was an example of revelation that was “new revelation” for that particular point in world history.

Have a good day.

I have to completely disagree here. Having been raised the daughter of an LDS Stake President and gone to four years of LDS seminary in high school, I feel that I can safely say that Mormon teaching conflicts with the Bible in several places. A good example is the doctrine of eternal marriage. Jesus said that in heaven, people are neither married nor given in marriage. See Mathew 22:30. Clear as day. But, the idea that one will be married to one’s spouse for time and all eternity is one of the central teachings of the LDS church.

The example of the gentiles being baptised points only to the fact that Christ came to fulfill the law. This created a new revelation, but did not conflict with the old law. Jews were still to be circumcised, but gentiles could be adopted into the chosen people by baptism only.

Since Joseph Smith prophesied in such a way that conflicted with established teachings of God, he cannot truly be a prophet of God. Even Christ himself could not deviate from the previous revelations, because God can neither deceive nor be deceived.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Parker, This doesn’t address your god who has a god who has a god, etc. If what feels best to you is that we should worship the god of your god, then we should all be worshiping the original god in your pantheon of gods and goddesses.

 

[RainbowGirl82]

Joseph Smith can’t be a prophet, because he preached a different gospel. I honestly could care less what Mormons think of Catholic beliefs and how the Bible is to be interpreted, because, quite frankly, they are not Christians and they are followers of a false prophet.

Moreover, Joseph Smith’s visions of Jesus and God and of the angel Moroni are private revelations, and since private revelation isn’t binding on Christians, there is no reason whatsoever to worry over it. End of story.

Of course he preached a different gospel than the one that Catholics preach. So do Protestants but you don’t automatically say that they are false because of that.

Also, where do you get the idea that Joseph Smith’s visions of Jesus and God are private revelations? Apparently Joseph Smith thought differently.

The main biblical rule for ascertaining a true prophet from a false one is that the prophet’s teaching must agree with known revelation, that is, with what was already handed down by God as absolutely essential for belief. (Deuteronomy 13: 1-5 II Timothy 4: 3-5)

And what of the idea that God is continuing to give revelation? Do you believe that God spoke to ancient people but not now? Why?

The commonality between “prophets” like Muhammed, Smith, etc. . . . is that they allow themselves plenty more than the one wife Jesus says we can have.

Please point out the verse in the Bible where Jesus himself only allowed people to have one wife.

I dissagree. I don’t think that multiple male “gods” that grow from human status to divine status agrees with the bible.

I don’t think that Jesus and Satan being brothers agrees with the bible.

Neither does “Mrs God” of should that really be the many “Mrs. gods”.

I don’t think that “modern day revelation” agrees with the bible.

Nor does Jesus made atonement inn the Garden.

I could go on for weeks, but I won’t waste my keystrokes.

You think. That is your opinion. Other people’s opinions differ. What makes your opinion more correct than someone else’s?

A god that waited 1800 years to complete his revelation certainly is a lazy god - not one that I want to worship.

Smith is indeed a prophet, but of the false variety.

In answer to the question; uh, no.
He may have been a prophet alright, but certainly NOT from The One True God.

And what makes you say this? Note that I am not saying that Joseph Smith was a true prophet. I personally do not believe what Joseph Smith taught. Nor do I believe in the Book of Mormon or any of the other Mormon scriptures. However, I do have a great deal of respect for their scriptures because like all scriptures, they are sacred to the group in question, the Mormons. Also, I believe that one can glean at least a small amount of truth from any religion’s beliefs.

I never realized mormons are thought of this way by catholics. I did not know they felt they are not christians, nor did I know that they had such contempt for them they can insult them this way.

Yeah, it is rather sad that there is such contempt for Mormons among some people. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing but why does it seem like some people on this board pretty much hate Mormons or Mormonism?

It’s not a feeling that Mormons are not Christian, it’s a fact.

There is no attempt to insult any Mormon. What you are calling an insult is actually a statement of truth. Anyone who has even a little knowledge of the LDS can see right off that they are not Christian. Did you know that Joseph Smith used a “seer stone” to translate the golden plates and also used the stone to try and find gold? They do not believe in one God. They believe in multiple Gods all over the universe. Their teachings conflict with the bible. They believe that they themselves can become a God. These, and many more, teachings are the product of not the bible but the corrupt mind of Joseph Smith.

What we condemn is the church of the LDS and its false teachings, not the people that are being misled by it.

According to the dictionary, a Christian is a person who either believes that Jesus is the Christ or someone who follows the teachings attributed to Jesus. It is my understanding that Mormons both believe that Jesus is the Christ and they follow what they believe to be the teachings attributed to Jesus. Therefore, according to the dictionary, they are Christians.

so do i, even if atheism is illogical.

What is so illogical about a lack of belief in a deity? If you ask me, most Atheists are some of the most logical people I have ever had the pleasure to meet. They seem to put a great emphasis on logic.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Good evening zaffiroborant. I hope you’ve been doing good!

I was re-reading the Gospel Principles manual, chapter 47, which is the chapter on exaltation (where you got your quote from, obviously).** One thing to keep in mind is that like most Church teacher’s manuals, by design, they give general principles to discuss in class, without providing detailed description of what each point actually means. I don’t mention this to take away from anything you’ve posted, but simply to show that many of these points can and are understood differently by different members of the Church.**

Personally, I take them at pretty much face value. Here is the complete list of main points from the section, “Blessings of Exaltation”:

*"Our Heavenly Father is perfect. However, he is not jealous of his wisdom and perfection. He glories in the fact that it is possible for his children to become like him. He has said, “This is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39).

Those who receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ will receive special blessings. The Lord has promised, “All things are theirs” (D&C 76:59). These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:

1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76).
2. They will become gods.
3. They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family.
4. They will receive a fulness of joy.
5. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge. President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to his commandments. They shall increase in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fulness of the perfect day shall burst upon them” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:36)."*

The concept of exaltation feels wonderful and right to me, but I can’t say that my limited mind can wrap itself around it. I don’t know what all of this means, so it is hard to speak to it in any detail. This is largely due to the fact that we only have pieces of the “puzzle”, so to speak, revealed in scripture. This doctrine, in my opinion, falls in to the category of important to know, but not necessary. If we stick to the basics (faith in Jesus Christ, repentence, obedience, scripture study, prayer, etc.) we’ll do just fine and we’ll figure these things out sooner or later.

To answer your point specifically. All I can say is that if point 3 means that we will have spirit children who will worship us, and this is what God the Father wants, then I’m going to go with what God wants.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

Well just to be clear I was addressing ParkerD where he said he doesn’t see himself as being"worshiped when exalted. Now you (and Parker) can say this is not clear but to me the “same relationship” involves worship. Spin it as you want but the Heavenly Father is worshiped by us, it is part of the relationship.

In my post to you about Vajda’s thesis I said I prefer the early fathers vagueness about divinization to what the LDS spells out,and obviously from your and Parkers reaction the LDS back pedals on. What really irritates me though is Parker’s continuing assertions that Catholics don’t believe in “joint heirship” and all that is associated with it. Why? because we don’t have the audacity to to draw a picture of what this means while you all say, you’ll do “this and that” “sorta, kinda”. How is your version better than the early father’s?.

Why is it ok for you to say " These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father." and then go on to say that it’s all vague and we don’t understand?

I also feel it is a misrepresentation of beliefs when you all imply that exaltation is equivalent to our belief in salvation. Exaltation is something only a few achieve. Only those that attain the highest level of the CK actually receive divinization according to LDS belief, and they only attain that level as married couples. Individuals have no place in this.