D
Dauphin
Guest
Of course, but the entire Church is still “Roman” in the sense that it’s presided over by the Bishop of Rome. Communion with the Pope is essential.
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Y
Yours_Truly
Guest
Oh, I see what you mean. When he said that there is no salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church, you responded by asking about the Eastern Churches who are in union with Rome.
The term Roman Catholic Church, or Roman Catholicism, does not only refer to the Wester Rite, it refers to any Church that is in union with Rome.
Here’s the definition from Fr. Hardin’s Catholic Pocket Dictionary:
Roman Catholicism: “The faith, worship, and practice of all Christians in communion with the Bishop of Rome, whom they acknowledge as the Vicar of Christ and the visible head of the Church founded by Christ. The terms “Roman Church”, and “Roman Catholic Church” date from at least the early Middle Ages, but the stress on these terms became prominent after the Protestant Reformation. The reason was to emphasize the distinctive quality of bieng not only a Chrisitan, because baptized, but of being Catholic, because in communion with the Pope”.
When the Church says there is no salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church, it is meant in the above sense - meaning those Churches who are in union with the Church of Rome - even if they are of an Eastern Rite…
B
buffalo
Guest
Correct.
A
ALLFORHIM
Guest
Saint Robert Bellarmine (died A.D. 1621): “Outside the Church there is no salvation…therefore in the symbol [Apostles Creed] we join together the Church with the remission of sins: `I believe in the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins’…For this reason the Church is compared with the ark of Noah, because just as during the deluge, everyone perished who was not in the ark, so now those perish who are not in the Church.” (De Sacramento Baptismi)
**Pope Gregory XVI: **“Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life… You know how zealously Our predecessors taught that article of faith which these dare to deny, namely the necessity of the Catholic faith and of unity for salvation… Omitting other appropriate passages which are almost numberless in the writings of the Fathers, We shall praise St. Gregory the Great who expressly testifies that THIS IS INDEED THE TEACHING OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. He says: ‘The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved.’ Official acts of the Church proclaim the same dogma. Thus, in the decree on faith which Innocent III published with the synod of Lateran IV, these things are written: ‘There is one universal Church of all the faithful outside of which no one is saved.’ Finally the same dogma is also expressly mentioned in the profession of faith proposed by the Apostolic See, not only that which all Latin churches use, but also that which… other Eastern Catholics use. We did not mention these selected testimonies because We thought you were ignorant of that article of faith and in need of Our instruction. Far be it from Us to have such an absurd and insulting suspicion about you. But We are so concerned about this serious and well known dogma, which has been attacked with such remarkable audacity, that We could not restrain Our pen from reinforcing this truth with many testimonies” (Summo Iugiter Studio, May 27, 1832).
Pope Gregory XVI: “With the admonition of the apostle that ‘there is one God, one faith, one baptism’ (Eph. 4:5) may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever. They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that ‘those who are not with Christ are against Him,’ (Lk. 11:23) and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him. Therefore, ‘without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate’ [Athanasian Creed] (Mirari Vos (# 13), Aug. 15, 1832).
Saint Ambrose (died A.D. 397): “Where Peter is therefore, there is the Church. Where the Church is there is not death but life eternal. …Although many call themselves Christians, they usurp the name and do not have the reward.” (The Fathers of the Church)
Saint Jerome (died A.D. 420): “As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is, with the Chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the Church is built. …This is the ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish when the flood prevails. …And as for heretics, I have never spared them; on the contrary, I have seen to it in every possible way that the Church’s enemies are also my enemies.” (Manual of Patrology and History of Theology)
Saint Augustine (died A.D. 430): “No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.” (Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesia plebem)
**Saint Fulgentius (died A.D. 533): **“Most firmly hold and never doubt that not only pagans, but also all Jews, all heretics, and all schismatics who finish this life outside of the Catholic Church, will go into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” (Enchiridion Patristicum)
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Thank you --this is just what I was looking for.
I would like to ask you something else and I REALLY want an honest answer in lieu of what you just gave me.
Do you think a born again christian who worships God in a non-catholic church and lives their life for Christ but NEVER becomes a member of the RCC can make it to heaven?
Thank you
**Pope Gregory XVI: **“Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life… You know how zealously Our predecessors taught that article of faith which these dare to deny, namely the necessity of the Catholic faith and of unity for salvation… Omitting other appropriate passages which are almost numberless in the writings of the Fathers, We shall praise St. Gregory the Great who expressly testifies that THIS IS INDEED THE TEACHING OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. He says: ‘The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved.’ Official acts of the Church proclaim the same dogma. Thus, in the decree on faith which Innocent III published with the synod of Lateran IV, these things are written: ‘There is one universal Church of all the faithful outside of which no one is saved.’ Finally the same dogma is also expressly mentioned in the profession of faith proposed by the Apostolic See, not only that which all Latin churches use, but also that which… other Eastern Catholics use. We did not mention these selected testimonies because We thought you were ignorant of that article of faith and in need of Our instruction. Far be it from Us to have such an absurd and insulting suspicion about you. But We are so concerned about this serious and well known dogma, which has been attacked with such remarkable audacity, that We could not restrain Our pen from reinforcing this truth with many testimonies” (Summo Iugiter Studio, May 27, 1832).
Pope Gregory XVI: “With the admonition of the apostle that ‘there is one God, one faith, one baptism’ (Eph. 4:5) may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever. They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that ‘those who are not with Christ are against Him,’ (Lk. 11:23) and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him. Therefore, ‘without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate’ [Athanasian Creed] (Mirari Vos (# 13), Aug. 15, 1832).
Saint Ambrose (died A.D. 397): “Where Peter is therefore, there is the Church. Where the Church is there is not death but life eternal. …Although many call themselves Christians, they usurp the name and do not have the reward.” (The Fathers of the Church)
Saint Jerome (died A.D. 420): “As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is, with the Chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the Church is built. …This is the ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish when the flood prevails. …And as for heretics, I have never spared them; on the contrary, I have seen to it in every possible way that the Church’s enemies are also my enemies.” (Manual of Patrology and History of Theology)
Saint Augustine (died A.D. 430): “No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.” (Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesia plebem)
**Saint Fulgentius (died A.D. 533): **“Most firmly hold and never doubt that not only pagans, but also all Jews, all heretics, and all schismatics who finish this life outside of the Catholic Church, will go into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” (Enchiridion Patristicum)
continue
Thank you --this is just what I was looking for.
I would like to ask you something else and I REALLY want an honest answer in lieu of what you just gave me.
Do you think a born again christian who worships God in a non-catholic church and lives their life for Christ but NEVER becomes a member of the RCC can make it to heaven?
Thank you
A
ALLFORHIM
Guest
Thank you—I knew I would get what I was looking for here
I would like to ask you something else and I REALLY want an honest answer in lieu of what you just gave me.
Do you think a born again christian who worships God in a non-catholic church and lives their life for Christ but NEVER becomes a member of the RCC can make it to heaven?
B
buffalo
Guest
Thank you --this is just what I was looking for.
I would like to ask you something else and I REALLY want an honest answer in lieu of what you just gave me.
Do you think a born again christian who worships God in a non-catholic church and lives their life for Christ but NEVER becomes a member of the RCC can make it to heaven?
Thank you
We have to address vincible ignorance and invincible ignorance to better clarify.
Since you have searched and found you are no longer invincibly ignorant. Now that you know the truth you have to assent to it.
God is facing you and you are facing Him. Christ is illuminating the truth for you. You have a choice. Walk toward Him or turn your back and walk away.
A
ALLFORHIM
Guest
I would like to ask you something else and I REALLY want an honest answer in lieu of what you just gave me.
Thank you
So are you saying then that if I follow Christ but not in the RCC I will not be going to heaven?
Y
Yours_Truly
Guest
I have a few questions. The Jehovah’s Witnesses deny that Jesus is God, and they deny that there is a Trinity, yet they believe they are following Jesus. Do you think they are?
The Mormons also deny that Jesus is God, yet they too think they are following Christ. Do you think they are?
The Catholic Church is the Church Jesus established. What it teaches is exactly what was taught by Jesus and the apostles. If you read Church history, you will see that what Catholics believe today has always been believed.
Now, I understand that you are very sincere in your questions. In your mind, you are following Christ… but are you really? How can you be so sure? Remember, the Jehovah’s Witnesses also think they are following Christ.
In order to truly follow Christ, we must accept what He taught. For example, in John Chapter 6, Jesus says that his flesh is “real food” and His blood is “real drink” and that those who eat His Flesh and Drink His blood will have eternal life
Now, Protestants do no believe that Jesus meant what He said. For them, this is “too hard of a teaching”. In the days of Jesus, those who rejected this teaching “walked no more with him”. In our day, however, those who reject this teaching mistakenly think they are walking with him, when in reality they are not. By rejecting this teaching they have rejected Christ and they don’t even realize it.
Read John chapter 6, beginning at about verse 31, and ask yourself in all sincerity if you believe what Jesus taught.
My point in this post is that, just because we think we are following Jesus does not mean we are really following Jesus. We must determine if we are following the real Jesus, or “another Christ”, as St. Paul put it.
Those who reject the Catholic Church usually do so based on what it teaches. What they don’t realize is that what the Catholic Church teaches is what Jesus taught, and what all Christians have believed since the beginning. Therefore, by the fact that they reject what the Catholic Church teaches, they thereby reject the true Christ who taught the same.
I used to be a Protestant myself, so I am not intending to insult you. You may not know that the Catholic Church is the true Church. It would make sense that you would be hesitant to believe such a think since you have always been taught differently.
Let this post serve as a challenge to yourself to see if the Catholic Church is what it claims to be. Post questions to us on this board and listen to what we have to say. See if we can support the claim of the Catholic Church.
You have no idea what you are missing being outside of the Catholic Church. Let us help you in any way that we can.
A
ALLFORHIM
Guest
Thank you very much for your kind response to me.
Im not going to respond to several things you said only because I do not want to get off track here(as you know happens
)I follow the Christ of the bible. I do not believe there is any other infallible source that is 100% reliable other then the bible. I test whatever is told to me against scripture(as the Bereans did) and I ask the HS to guide me.
I believe Christ died on the cross for the sins of mankind so we can be reconciled to God.
I believe what John chapter 3(whole chapter tells me) I believe Romans 10 and what it tells me I have to do in order to be saved.
There are more–but you get my point.
So, my question still stands–can someone like me go to heaven even though I am not a member of the RCC?
Y
Yours_Truly
Guest
The Church allows for the possibility that one who is invincibly ignorant of the Church might be able to attain salvation. Unfortunately, that does not apply to you.
So, unfortunately, the answer to your question no. Unless you enter the Roman Catholic Church you will, without a doubt, perish for all eternity.
If I can do anything at all to help you, let me know and I will.
I’ll end with a few question.
1.) Jesus said that to enter into life we must keep the commandmants (Mt 19). Do you believe that?
2.) In 1 John we are told that those who say they knoweth Him, but keepeth not his commandments are liars" (1 John 2:4-5). Do you believe that?
3.) In 2 Thess 2:14,15, we are told to hold fast to both written and oral traditions. What oral traditions do you hold fast to?
4.) In John 20:23, Jesus told the apostles “whosoever sins you forgive, they are forgiven them”. Do you believe that the apostles had the authority to forgive sins? If so, why? If Jesus intended for us to confess directly to him, why would he give the apostles the ability to forgive sins?
5.). In James 2:24, it says we are “justified by works, and not by faith alone”. Do you believe that?
6.) In Mt 18:17, Jesus says that we must “hear the Church or be as the heathen an publican”. What Church do you think he was talking about?
7.) In Acts 20:28, it says that “the Holy Ghost has placed you Bishops to rule the Church of God”. Do Bishops rule your Church?
Test your beliefs against these verses and see how you come out. Then ask yourself, given what Jesus said in John 20:23, how you have your sins forgiven.
C
cathguy
Guest
Believe it or not you are right on both counts.Hi,
Could someone show which council/document it says that noone can be saved outside the RCC?
And isnt there something in Vatican II that says someone outside the CC can be saved?
Could you explain the change?
Thanks
There is no salvation outside of the Church founded by our blessed Lord Jesus Christ. That Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
Christ, who is God, came to earth to suffer and die upon the cross for a reason, and that reason was the forgiveness of our sins. Unless we are in Christ, we cannot be saved. To be in Christ means being part of His body, and that means salvation occurs through his Church.
That said, please understand even though it is true EVERYONE who gets to heaven ultimately does so because of the grace of Jesus Christ through his Church that does not mean that one has to be a “card carrying Catholic” to be saved. That is a simplistic interpretation, and it is a proven error.
There is such a thing as baptism by desire. There is also such a thing as baptism by blood. There is also the case that some, through no fault of their own, cannot accept the fullness of Christ’s truth. These MAY be saved, but only because of the victory of Christ on the Cross.
I hope this answers you question.
There has been no change in Catholic teaching.
C
cathguy
Guest
The Church would not proclaim this: “you will, without a doubt, perish.” That is not reflective of Church teaching.
We have reason to HOPE for even those who are invinceably ignorant. We have no way of knowing “Yours Truly” whether this poster is invinceably ignorant or not.
In general I agree with you however.
Here is what I am comfortable saying: this poster, should he remain imperfectly united with the Body of Christ which is the Church (I am assuming he is validly baptized) is at a MATERIAL DISADVANTAGE for his salvation. The chances are VERY GOOD that he will not be saved, and we need to pray for him.
However, we cannot know for certain that he will not be saved. That is overstating the case. That judgement is reserved to Christ alone. Not even the Pope’s presume to claim that someone will without a doubt be damned. There is a list of the saints, and not a list of the damned, for a reason.
C
cathguy
Guest
And where do you get the Bible?Thank you very much for your kind response to me.
Im not going to respond to several things you said only because I do not want to get off track here(as you know happens
I follow the Christ of the bible. I do not believe there is any other infallible source that is 100% reliable other then the bible. I test whatever is told to me against scripture(as the Bereans did) and I ask the HS to guide me.
I believe Christ died on the cross for the sins of mankind so we can be reconciled to God.
I believe what John chapter 3(whole chapter tells me) I believe Romans 10 and what it tells me I have to do in order to be saved.
There are more–but you get my point.
So, my question still stands–can someone like me go to heaven even though I am not a member of the RCC?
I agree with your quote of John Chapter 3. Can you tell me what you think of John Chapter 6?
C
cathguy
Guest
Oh boy…
I know you do not trust me, do you trust the SSPX?
angeluspress.org/oscatalog/item/3093/is-feeneyism-catholic
The reason the protestant poster is so glad you gave him your flawed and poorly nuanced quotations taken out of the context of the larger Catholic tradition and Church teaching is because he now thinks he has “proof” that the Catholic apologists who oppose him are wrong.
Good job.
You even contradict the sheppards you profess to follow (the SSPX)
Pride. Arrogance. Folly.
A
ALLFORHIM
Guest
Hi,
Thank you for your responses. I appreciate what you said.
I do not want to stray off topic so for that reason Im not going to answer the questions you asked of me. You know it only takes 1 rtesponse to send a thread into a tizzy
A
ALLFORHIM
Guest
SSPX means what? Are they the Traditionalists or are you?
C
cathguy
Guest
When you came to the Traditionalist part of this forum you invited responses from those who in many ways, are also protestant.
These are the SSPX, and there are others. They refuse to recognize the authority of the Second Vatican Council and the Popes.
Now, an important point. They will tell you they represent what the Church taught before the Council. HOWEVER, what they IN FACT represent is a new and pseudo-traditionalism that evolves almost entirely AFTER the Council out of polemic with the Bishops of the Church of Rome. Wether or not a formal schism with them can be avoided remains to be seen. However, you need to take what they say with a large dose of salt. They represent a tiny portion of the Catholic Church, and do not speak for Her. The Popes do. The Mageserium does. If you want an authentic representation of Church teaching, go to well balanced sources, like the Catechism.
Consider: these people posting here told you that no one who is not a card carrying Catholic gets into heaven. But EVEN THE SSPX they claim to follow says otherwise through their official publishing house! (see the link I provided in my previous post. Angelus Press is the OFFICIAL publishing house of the SSPX) These folks PRIDE themselves on taking positions to the right of the Popes. That is silly.
The Pope has said to return to communion with Him they must accept the Second Vatican Council and the authority of his magesterium.
Please know that the Church has ALWAYS taught, since it was founded, in the possibility of baptism by blood and baptism by desire. These are Catholic teachings. Fennyism is an exaggeration of Catholic tradition that goes too far to an extreme that even the SSPX does not hold. Fennyism is a modernist view of no salvation outside the Church.
In short: two extremes: 1) Only card-carrying Catholics can hope to be saved is one extreme 2) All people are saved, or all who profess Christ are saved is another extreme.
I hope this answers your question.
C
cathguy
Guest
Now, I hope I answered your questions thoroughly and that the link to “Is Fennyism Catholic?” is helpful.
I conclude with the Truth.
If you are not fully in Communion with the Catholic Church, you are at a material disadvantage for you salvation. You must consider the teachings of the Church very carefully and not treat theology as a game or a sport as those who frequent internet chat rooms often do.
Go to the Catholic tradition, go to the Catechism, and go to RESPECTED theologians and apologists to get the Truth. You won’t find in a Catholic answers chat-room. Especially in the “traditional Catholicism” forum.
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Yours_Truly
Guest
Your “explanations” prove your own statement.
Have you ever noticed that Traditionalists always provide authoritative quotes from Pope and councils to suppor thier position while you provide nothing but you own words?
A
ALLFORHIM
Guest
Thanks for the explanation
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