Could Suicide Bombers be the Saints of the 21st Century?

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rpp said:
The OP appears to be promoting, or at least admiring, acts of violence and terror against innocent civilians. That is a very serious violation of both forum rules and basic humanity.

Personally, I would not engage such a person in a conversation for feed their need for attention. Note that this is the only thread he has posted on since he joined.
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I have a feeling that the op is either really immature or looking to stir up trouble.
 
srlucado said:
My guess would be “both”. That, plus very, very lonely.

Perhaps it’s time we stop feeding the troll.
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Maybe, but I have some free time. Maybe one day, it will all sink in for him. Hopefully, without him losing a loved one at the hands of his heroic saints.
 
MumboJumbo said:
Could Suicide Bombers be the Saints of the 21st Century?

They are willing to die for what they believe in. That is a requirement for sainthood.

They are doing what they do so others will benefit. That’s another requirement for sainthood.

They believe that God has chosen them for that mission. That’s another requirement for sainthood.

Who would kill themselves for a purpose beyond themselves other than someone who might be called a saint?

Osama Bin Laden IS a terrorist because HE is not willing to die. But he does order other people to their deaths. What if his followers said, “Why don’t you go first!” It seems like the guy in charge is never willing to sacrifice what he demands of others. But then he is the one who gets the publicity and the saint gets the death sentence. Just like in real life.
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Without love of God and man, no Gospel holiness is possible. Jesus shows us what this means, by His Atoning Death on behalf of a guilty human race. He does not command what He has not Himself done.​

They OTOH kill & maim & terrorise the innocent. How is that a manifestation of the self-sacrificing & always-obedient love of Christ ? It’s about as much like that, as Dracula is like Christ. 😦 Having a cause, even dying for it, does not make Saints.
 
GraceDK said:
The Islamist “martyrs” do their missions because they are chosen by higher leaders in a hierarchy that does not respect the human person. This phenomenon you also don’t see in western democracies where people grow up with a feeling of personality, rights and individuality. Totalitarian systems teach the individual to sacrifice himself for the common good. The masses are dealt with with carelessness… they become submitted slaves.
The healthy system will rather say: we must under no circumstance send people into death for any goal, because the goal does not justify evil means.

Two sins in suicide mission:
  • Suicide (you don’t have right to take life… not your own and not that of others… its the greatest no to God when you take life).
  • killing random innocents. Saying that this is good is sick in the head under any circumstance.
The word “martyr” should always be used with caution by Christians when it involves people who commit murder of themselves and others for religious or political reasons.

The Christian martyr is, per definition, someone who dies, not because he wishes death and wants to escape this life, but who submits to being killed when there is no other way and who faces death maintaining his Christian witness till the end for the sake of salvation of the perpetrators who kill him.

Peace to you.
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Double thumbs-up there 🙂 👍👍😃​

 
Gottle_of_Geer said:

Effect, Double, Principle of 🙂​

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Too cute.

Sampson’s story is not so much about how he killed this and that and used a donkey bone. It is about how he was supposed to be dedicated to the Lord but FAILED as an example of that dedication, yet, in the end, he was not abandoned by God at all. When he called to the Lord, he was heard dispite his sins.
 
MumboJumbo said:
Could Suicide Bombers be the Saints of the 21st Century?
They are doing what they do so others will benefit. That’s another requirement for sainthood.

Who is benefiting?
This thread has very quickly changed from a question about faith to a bashing of the Islamic religion and Muslim people.
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ralphinal said:
Too cute.

Sampson’s story is not so much about how he killed this and that and used a donkey bone. It is about how he was supposed to be dedicated to the Lord but FAILED as an example of that dedication, yet, in the end, he was not abandoned by God at all. When he called to the Lord, he was heard dispite his sins.
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The reference is probably not to the anthropocteinic maxilla episode, which is what it seems you’re thinking of, but, to his demolition of the temple of Dagon in chapter 16 🙂​

 
empurpledsoul said:
Jesus knew that there was an intent to murder him. What example did he give? What did he do when the soldier came for him and Peter ‘defended’ him by cutting off the soldiers ear?

Even Christians don’t get it. Murder is taking the life of another, war is murder, even if your life is threatened as Christs was there is no justification for picking up a weapon and seeking violent retribution. The cure isn’t violence. It is faith in God and the power of Love. Even to the point where you ‘loose’ and lay down your life in the flesh. The Amish are the pure example of understanding what God gave in Jesus.

And Samson was before Jesus. The Word clarifies what real power is in the world, it isn’t man’s propensity to use violence, even for ‘self defense’, it is God’s perfect Love. It moves mountains. It is not the romantic weak love that humans think they have to give to one another even while using violence to ‘defend’ their country, their land, their home. This earth is not eternal, every person must die.

There may be a natural reaction to ‘fight’ with our bodies or hands when being attacked, like a swimmer fighting against the waters they are drowning in, and if in this moment their attacker dies then that is not murder, it is truly self defense. But anything more, where one has to take deliberate steps, pick up a weapon and seek to DESTROY the one they are threatened by, when they believe in politics on earth that say there is ‘intent’ to do harm (often without proof) by another nation so they are justified to go in full blazes and start killing, it is all murder in the eyes of God.

Thou shalt not kill is not what the original commandment states (for we kill animals for our survival). Thou shalt not murder is the original command, this is the statement that human beings are NOT given any power or authority or justification to take another human life for any cause at all. That this was not understood was one of the purposes in sending Jesus who would clarify this perfectly and give us the Word which if you have truly planted it in your heart, would reveal to you that the very thought of murder even in self defense goes against the Spirit of Truth in your heart and soul. When you are truly filled with the perfect love of God you simply can not take a life for any cause on earth.
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But Jesus tried to make the point that all killing is wrong. Correct

But some killing is necessary. Correct

Wasn’t Jesus killed for rebelling against the current order of thing? YES!

The people in charge didn’t like what he was preaching so he was executed.

People don’t like hearing the truth so they kill the messenger. That doesn’t mean the messenger is wrong. It means that some people would rather live in blissful ignorance.
 
Gottle_of_Geer said:

The reference is probably not to the anthropocteinic maxilla episode, which is what it seems you’re thinking of, but, to his demolition of the temple of Dagon in chapter 16 🙂​

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No, I knew it was. I just like the other part better.

I am still right in my postion that the important part is not that he killed but that dispite his failures in his dedication to God, God still heard his cries for help.
 
Re: Could Suicide Bombers be the Saints of the 21st Century?
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Originally Posted by MumboJumbo forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
Re: Could Suicide Bombers be the Saints of the 21st Century?
Try and tell that to someone who is stuck in one of those neighborhoods.
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Look, I feel sorry for anyone in a crime-infested area. I really do. However, those who commit the crimes need to be stopped. Do you know how you stop crimes in an area?
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Resistance by the citizens and to start considering “gangs” as terrorists. Look how much effort the government puts into destroying terrorists groups and virtually nothing to eliminate gangs.
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It is nice that we have definitions for everything. "I’m sorry maam! Your husband wasn’t killed by a terrorist, he was killed by a war criminal and therefore you are not entitled to any monetary help. So sorry!
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How old are you? Here is the deal, and I hope that this sinks in, everyone and EVERYTHING on this planet is under some sort of catagory or definition. No matter what you want to be, society calls you something. How you act and what you do has an effect on the words used to describe you.
…
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Does a challenging subject get your underwear in a bunch? If the post is beyond the scope of your intellect, move on. If not,…

Why were the 911 victim families compensated by the US taxpayer while other terrorist victim families are not? That’s not to tough for you, is it?
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I find it interesting that you place women and children in a higher value range than men. What about a 82 year old male WW2 veteran with a drawer full of medals against a 18year old Latina gang banger. Whose life is worth more?
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All life is equal… The death of any human is a loss, unless they are born into eternal life. WHat I do not understand is why a coward with a twisted world view has more value to you than a 6 year old has potential.
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But if all life has value, why do your answers support something different. You obviously hate people trying to defend their own country with whatever means they have. How many civilians got killed during WW2? and by Allied bombs?

Who put those" twisted views" into the head of the suicide bomber. Was he born that way? Or did his “friends” train his brain to feel that way in the Middle East…The same way “friends” train the brains of kids in public schools to join gangs in Midwestern America.

Why is the terrorist who gets caught in the Middle East going to get a tremendous prison sentence without even having to prove that HE killed someone. Whereas the gang member in the US who did kill someone is treated as a lost soul and someone we should pray for. That the whole concept of gangs is something Americans are just going to have to get used to.

And you call my values screwed up!
 
MumboJumbo said:
Re: Could Suicide Bombers be the Saints of the 21st Century?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MumboJumbo forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
Re: Could Suicide Bombers be the Saints of the 21st Century?

Resistance by the citizens and to start considering “gangs” as terrorists. Look how much effort the government puts into destroying terrorists groups and virtually nothing to eliminate gangs.
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No, lots of money has been used to fight gangs. I suggest you look at how much of a cities police force is used for that. We cannot use the military in the US for that, because it is against the Constitution. The major problems with fighting gangs is that the areas in which the work have a large population of people who wil not help.
Does a challenging subject get your underwear in a bunch? If the post is beyond the scope of your intellect, move on. If not,…
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Do not worry about my intellect, child. Though I am older, I am still here. And my underware is none of your concern
Why were the 911 victim families compensated by the US taxpayer while other terrorist victim families are not? That’s not to tough for you, is it?
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Again, you show a lack of undderstanding of the world. POLITICS. It is that simple. The American Government saw it as a time to make political hay.
But if all life has value, why do your answers support something different. You obviously hate people trying to defend their own country with whatever means they have. How many civilians got killed during WW2? and by Allied bombs?
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Far too many got killed. One is too many. I have no issue with people trying to defend their country. I have an issue with the idea that if I kill enough women and children, I can have my way. Attack soldiers. Attack leaders. Leave the innocent out of it.
Who put those" twisted views" into the head of the suicide bomber. Was he born that way? Or did his “friends” train his brain to feel that way in the Middle East…The same way “friends” train the brains of kids in public schools to join gangs in Midwestern America.
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It was taught to him as being correct thought, yes. It is a cultural problem.
Why is the terrorist who gets caught in the Middle East going to get a tremendous prison sentence without even having to prove that HE killed someone. Whereas the gang member in the US who did kill someone is treated as a lost soul and someone we should pray for. That the whole concept of gangs is something Americans are just going to have to get used to
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Gosh, you really do have a lot to learn. A person convicted of murder gets a tremendous prison sentence. It is our code of law. A terrrorist falls into a different catagory of criminal than a gang member. See, a terrorist may kill someone, but his desire is to overthrow the government. That is much worse. Not for the victom, but for society.

And BOTH of them are lost souls and need to be prayed for.
And you call my values screwed up!
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They are. Look, why do you think that killing women and children is a good thing? Why can you not see that innocents should not be killed?

This entire topic comes to one question: is it acceptable to kill innocent people to achieve your goals?

That is the only question that I want to see answered.
 
MumboJumbo said:
But Jesus tried to make the point that all killing is wrong. Correct

But some killing is necessary. Correct

Wasn’t Jesus killed for rebelling against the current order of thing? YES!

The people in charge didn’t like what he was preaching so he was executed.

People don’t like hearing the truth so they kill the messenger. That doesn’t mean the messenger is wrong. It means that some people would rather live in blissful ignorance.
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Okay, now you are saying you are Jesus. Dude, your advocacy for violence, your promotion of murder of innocents is sickening. Take your murderous rage and self-deification elsewhere.
 
Re: Could Suicide Bombers be the Saints of the 21st Century?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MumboJumbo forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
*Re: Could Suicide Bombers be the Saints of the 21st Century? *
Resistance by the citizens and to start considering “gangs” as terrorists. Look how much effort the government puts into destroying terrorists groups and virtually nothing to eliminate gangs.
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

No, lots of money has been used to fight gangs. I suggest you look at how much of a cities police force is used for that. We cannot use the military in the US for that, because it is against the Constitution. The major problems with fighting gangs is that the areas in which the work have a large population of people who wil not help.
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*The military was used to great effect in the LA riots. The police were pretty much a joke as far as a deterent. It wasn’t until gangs saw soldiers with M-16s that refused to put up with their usual nonsense, that the riot began to fizzle. *
Does a challenging subject get your underwear in a bunch? If the post is beyond the scope of your intellect, move on. If not,…
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Do not worry about my intellect, child. Though I am older, I am still here. And my underware is none of your concern
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Whatever?

Quote:
Why were the 911 victim families compensated by the US taxpayer while other terrorist victim families are not? That’s not to tough for you, is it?
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Again, you show a lack of undderstanding of the world. POLITICS. It is that simple. The American Government saw it as a time to make political hay.​

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Since you didn’t really answer the question, I can see that you don’t have a grasp of politics either. Or maybe you forgot what the question was. When in doubt, blame it on politics!!

Quote:
But if all life has value, why do your answers support something different. You obviously hate people trying to defend their own country with whatever means they have. How many civilians got killed during WW2? and by Allied bombs?
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Far too many got killed. One is too many. I have no issue with people trying to defend their country. I have an issue with the idea that if I kill enough women and children, I can have my way. Attack soldiers. Attack leaders. Leave the innocent out of it.​

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And if those soldiers hide behind women and children? Would you let the free world be destroyed because the enemy saw that you won’t make the sacrifices necessary to destroy him?

Quote:
Why is the terrorist who gets caught in the Middle East going to get a tremendous prison sentence without even having to prove that HE killed someone. Whereas the gang member in the US who did kill someone is treated as a lost soul and someone we should pray for. That the whole concept of gangs is something Americans are just going to have to get used to
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Gosh, you really do have a lot to learn. A person convicted of murder gets a tremendous prison sentence. It is our code of law. A terrrorist falls into a different catagory of criminal than a gang member. See, a terrorist may kill someone, but his desire is to overthrow the government. That is much worse. Not for the victom, but for society.​

Click to expand...
When was the last time a gang member under 18 did a life sentence?
Quote:
And you call my values screwed up
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They are. Look, why do you think that killing women and children is a good thing? Why can you not see that innocents should not be killed?
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When did I ever say that killing women and children are a good thing? Are you going to resort to making things up now?
This entire topic comes to one question: is it acceptable to kill innocent people to achieve your goals?

That is the only question that I want to see answered.
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Based on but a single war: World War 2, The answer is yes. It was done repeatedly because it had to be done. It will have to be done in the future. Any leader that refuses to make those hard decisions should not hold office.
 
Mumbo,
there is really no reason to continue this topic. You think that a person can kill all the women and children they want to champion a cause. This is a disgusting and vile thought.

We did not kill innocents in WWII because we wanted to, but because we thought we had to or because our technology made it impossible not to. Today, we have learned, through events like the Battle of Britton, that bombing civilians DOES NOT HELP.

Please, get psychological help.
 
ralphinal said:
Mumbo,
there is really no reason to continue this topic. You think that a person can kill all the women and children they want to champion a cause. This is a disgusting and vile thought.

We did not kill innocents in WWII because we wanted to, but because we thought we had to or because our technology made it impossible not to. Today, we have learned, through events like the Battle of Britton, that bombing civilians DOES NOT HELP.

Please, get psychological help.
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I completely agree with absolutely every word in this post (except that it is spelled Britain 😛 ).
 
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