Could the American Revolution ever be justified?

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Jeffrey, you are completely wrong about this “unilateral disarmament” business. Here’s why:

Like it or not, what we are doing works, and has worked since both the US and the Soviets obtained nuclear weapons. The fact is that the US nuclear arsenal has worked to deter soviet aggression, so much so that we won the Cold War.

And yet you want us to unilaterally throw that away.

That makes no sense whatsoever.

Perhaps I can suggest you write to “vlad the impaler” Putin and ask HIM to unilaterally disarm. Seriously. Why do WE have to? Why can’t HE do so?
 
PolarGuy said:
Jeffrey, you are completely wrong about this “unilateral disarmament” business. Here’s why:

Like it or not, what we are doing works, and has worked since both the US and the Soviets obtained nuclear weapons. The fact is that the US nuclear arsenal has worked to deter soviet aggression, so much so that we won the Cold War.

And yet you want us to unilaterally throw that away.

That makes no sense whatsoever.

Perhaps I can suggest you write to “vlad the impaler” Putin and ask HIM to unilaterally disarm. Seriously. Why do WE have to? Why can’t HE do so?
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It would be great if Holy Scripture supported the idea that the nuclear stand-off between the USA and Russia could go on forever (or at least until the Second Coming.)
Then I would have to say that you are absolutely right.
Unfortunately Scripture indicates otherwise:

The nations have sunk into a pit of their own making,
they are caught by the feet in the snare they set themselves.
YHWH has. . .trapped the wicked in the work of their own hands. Psalm 9:15-16

**Go into the hollows of the rocks,
into the caverns of the earth,
at the sight of the terror of YHWH,
at the brilliance of His majesty . . .**Isaiah 2:19

**For see how YHWH comes in fire,
His chariots like the tempest,
to assuage His anger with burning,
His threats with flaming fire.

For by fire will YHWH execute judgment,
and by His sword against all mankind.
The victims of YHWH will be many.** Isaiah 66:15-16

**For YHWH is indicting the nations,
arraigning all flesh for judgment;
the wicked He abandons to the sword . . .
See! The disaster spreads
from nation to nation,
a mighty tempest rises
from the far ends of the world.

Those slaughtered by YHWH that day will be scattered across the world from end to end.
No dirge will be raised for them; no one will gather them or bury them; they will stay lying on the surface like dung. **Jeremiah 25:31-33

I have come to bring a fire to the earth, and how I wish it were blazing already! Luke 12:49

**We have been admonished in no uncertain terms to forego retribution, to return good for evil, to always treat others as we would like them to treat us, and to trust in our Creator for our future well-being.
The building of a massive force of nuclear retaliation goes against our Creator’s Laws. It is offensive to Him.

Our choice in the USA is to disarm and live under a Russian nuclear umbrella or suffer the ravages of global nuclear war.
I prefer the former, if for no other reason than that would be an action in compliance with our Teacher’s Holy Instructions. **
 
Jeffrey, your scriptural quotes never say, or even imply, that we must lay down our arms in face of those who would do us harm.

Further points:
  1. You assume the only options are to disarm or face a nuclear war. The facts show otherwise, namely, that non-disarmament prevents a nuclear war. So your assumptions are incorrect.
  2. You also wrongly assume that, if we disarmed, we would live peacefully under a Russian nuclear umbrella. If a lunatic is holding a gun pointed at you, why should we assume he will NOT use it, if we lay down our own gun pointed at him?
  3. You aren’t answering my question: why must WE disarm? Why shouldn’t THEY disarm?
 
PolarGuy said:
Jeffrey, your scriptural quotes never say, or even imply, that we must lay down our arms in face of those who would do us harm.

Further points:
  1. You assume the only options are to disarm or face a nuclear war. The facts show otherwise, namely, that non-disarmament prevents a nuclear war. So your assumptions are incorrect.
  2. You also wrongly assume that, if we disarmed, we would live peacefully under a Russian nuclear umbrella. If a lunatic is holding a gun pointed at you, why should we assume he will NOT use it, if we lay down our own gun pointed at him?
  3. You aren’t answering my question: why must WE disarm? Why shouldn’t THEY disarm?
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**1. You are disregarding Holy Scripture which clearly indicates that global nuclear war will happen.
Your assumption that Holy Scripture is irrelevant is the one that is incorrect.
  1. Putin is not a lunatic; he is not a Hitler or Stalin. Another wrong assumption.
    I’ll take Vladmir Putin over Donald Trump any day.
  2. The USA is a democracy, and its citizens have the power to force their government to carry out their decisions.
    The USA is the country that started this nuclear stand-off dilemma, so it would be fitting for its citizens to be the ones to provide the solution.
It is true that the CCC allows for countries to defend their borders and insure the protection of their citizens.
However, these so-called nuclear “defensive” weapons are, in reality, weapons of vengeance. And, rather than being a safeguard, they present a great danger to humanity.
The Church has renounced its tolerance of the MAD philosophy.
I prefer to go by that.**

ncronline.org/news/peace-justice/catholics-press-nuclear-weapons-ban-un-treaty-review-conference

dailykos.com/story/2004/3/9/18872/-
 
I’m sorry, jeffrey, scripture does NOT say “nuclear war will happen.” That may be your interpretation, but it is certainly not one shared by the Catholic Church.

Is Putin a lunatic? I never said he was. I might use the phrase “very evil,” (he is after all an ex-KGB colonel; his actions regarding the Ukraine are certainly not those of a good man) but I wouldn’t say a lunatic.

Further, nothing you say explains why the US should unilaterally disarm.

Since you are a communist, and decidedly pro-Russian, might you be encouraging actions harmful to the USA?
 
PolarGuy said:
Since you are a communist, and decidedly pro-Russian, might you be encouraging actions harmful to the USA?
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**If it’s “pro-Russian” to take our Teachers’s advice to “love our enemies” seriously, then I’m pro-Russian.
If it is “pro-Russian” to advocate the only available course of action that will insure that my country, the USA, is not destroyed by a global nuclear war, then I am pro-Russian.

And if its “communist” to believe in basic Gospel tenets such as “To each according to their needs,” or from each according to their abilities, then I must be a communist too.

If you want to ignore Scripture, that’s your privilege. I choose to pay attention.**
 
jeffrey_erwin said:
**If it’s “pro-Russian” to take our Teachers’s advice to “love our enemies” seriously, then I’m pro-Russian.
**
Click to expand...
It is not your rather unique take on Scripture and proof-texting that has indicated your pro-Russian bias, it is statements like this:
jeffrey_erwin said:
**
2. Putin is not a lunatic; he is not a Hitler or Stalin. Another wrong assumption.
I’ll take Vladmir Putin over Donald Trump any day. **%between%
Click to expand...
jeffrey_erwin said:
**It is time for the citizens of the USA to realize that Russia is the best friend that we have in this world, and that this insane ICBM stand-off between our countries cannot continue forever. **
Click to expand...
It is you criticism of every conflict that the United States has been involved in, yet saying, “**I don’t care if the Russian government is a democracy or not. I don’t care if Russia annexes the Crimea and Eastern Ukraine provinces.”
**
This is why it is hard to take anything you say more seriously than any other Russian propaganda.
 
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pnewton:
This is why it is hard to take anything you say more seriously than any other Russian propaganda.

**Unfortunately the propaganda that we are all buying into is that our ICBMs and SSBNs are necessary to keep us safe.
You may accuse me of promoting “Russian propaganda” if that makes you happy.
But the reality is that I am just trying to insure the survival of the USA and, perhaps, humanity as well. **
 
Polar must still be upset that Putin got to ISIS before we could.

How sad that even Putin’s assaults didn’t work…

Honestly, I don’t care much for this Russia vs America nuclear stuff.

Nuclear weapons these days are doing a nice job deterring nuclear terrorism. Because if ISIS nukes either Moscow or New York, you can be sure radioactive remains of Mecca will go flying.

At least, that is the IDEA of deterrence…
 
PolarGuy said:
I’m sorry, jeffrey, scripture does NOT say “nuclear war will happen.” That may be your interpretation, but it is certainly not one shared by the Catholic Church.

Is Putin a lunatic? I never said he was. I might use the phrase “very evil,” (he is after all an ex-KGB colonel; his actions regarding the Ukraine are certainly not those of a good man) but I wouldn’t say a lunatic.

Further, nothing you say explains why the US should unilaterally disarm.

Since you are a communist, and decidedly pro-Russian, might you be encouraging actions harmful to the USA?
Click to expand...
Polar I thought I didn’t agree with you on anything, but this I do.

It would be a very bad idea for America to step down it’s defenses. Obviously, I love the ideas of a humanitarian peace, as does the Holy Father. But World War III gets closer and closer the more America DISARMS. With Obama disarming America’s military efficiency, the globe has gotten MUCH closer to a global war.
 
Jeff, please answer the question(s): why must the USA, as opposed to Russia, disarm? Why shouldn’t Russia?

For that matter, Russia isn’t the only nation who possesses nuclear weapons and who would presumably be afraid of nuclear retaliation if they started a war with the USA. China; Pakistan; maybe North Korea; and many others have nuclear weapons. Our nuclear weapons deter them as well…right?
 
ialsop said:
Polar I thought I didn’t agree with you on anything, but this I do.

It would be a very bad idea for America to step down it’s defenses. Obviously, I love the ideas of a humanitarian peace, as does the Holy Father. But World War III gets closer and closer the more America DISARMS. With Obama disarming America’s military efficiency, the globe has gotten MUCH closer to a global war.
Click to expand...
**Actually Mr. Obama has signed onto a one trillion dollar modernization of the USA’s nuclear bombs. **

armscontrol.org/ACT/2015_12/Focus/The-US-Nuclear-Weapons-Spending-Binge

democracynow.org/2016/4/14/a_new_nuclear_arms_race_builds

**If I have probably presented this analogy before, my apologies:
Two men each demand to be Sheriff of a town. They find themselves sitting at a table; each holding a loaded pistol pointed at the other’s head.
Neither will pull their pistol’s trigger out of fear that firing will cause the other’s pistol to also fire.
But neither wants to do the sensible thing and just put down the gun.
Adding to the insanity of this situation is the fact that one of these wanna-be-sheriffs suffers from multiple personality disorder. Every eight years a new and unpredictable persona takes over his brain.

The Catholic Church has withdrawn its reluctant tolerance of the MAD doctrine and now condemns it.
The Episcopal Church and the Society of Friends have asked for Unilateral Nuclear Disarmament.
It’s time we started to trust our Divine Creator for our future well being and put an end to the madness of this dangerous.nuclear stand-off.
**
ncronline.org/news/peace-justice/catholics-press-nuclear-weapons-ban-un-treaty-review-conference

fciv.org/downloads/Holy%20See%20Contribution-Vienna-8-DEC-2014.pdf
 
Interesting how in your analogy the USA is “insane” because it elects leaders.

Kind of looks like you’re ducking my questions, jeff:

Why doesn’t Russia unilaterally disarm?

And doesn’t MAD as a doctrine actually work in practice?
 
PolarGuy said:
Jeff, please answer the question(s): why must the USA, as opposed to Russia, disarm? Why shouldn’t Russia?

For that matter, Russia isn’t the only nation who possesses nuclear weapons and who would presumably be afraid of nuclear retaliation if they started a war with the USA. China; Pakistan; maybe North Korea; and many others have nuclear weapons. Our nuclear weapons deter them as well…right?
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**That’s a legitimate question, and I apologise for not having answered.
We in the USA would of course prefer that the Russians undertake UND as opposed to ourselves.
But, according to the Sacred Teachings that we (supposedly) live by, if we think that it is a good idea for the Russians to do that for us, then we must consider doing that for them. **

Always treat others as you would like them to treat you.

**Russia is not a real democracy. Its citizens do not have the option of electing leaders that would carry out UND.
Therefore the task falls onto the citizens of the USA.
And perhaps it should, since our country started this nuclear madness. (Admittedly, the Russians were not far behind,)

As for the other nuclear armed nations, leave them to the Russians. I think that with the USA no longer a nuclear threat, Mr. Putin would demand a similar nuclear disarmament from those as well.
That is why I say that we can live under a Russian nuclear umbrella and that Russia is, in reality, the best friend the USA has in this world.**
 
jeffrey_erwin said:
**Actually Mr. Obama has signed onto a one trillion dollar modernization of the USA’s nuclear bombs. **

armscontrol.org/ACT/2015_12/Focus/The-US-Nuclear-Weapons-Spending-Binge

democracynow.org/2016/4/14/a_new_nuclear_arms_race_builds

**If I have probably presented this analogy before, my apologies:
Two men each demand to be Sheriff of a town. They find themselves sitting at a table; each holding a loaded pistol pointed at the other’s head.
Neither will pull their pistol’s trigger out of fear that firing will cause the other’s pistol to also fire.
But neither wants to do the sensible thing and just put down the gun.
Adding to the insanity of this situation is the fact that one of these wanna-be-sheriffs suffers from multiple personality disorder. Every eight years a new and unpredictable persona takes over his brain.

The Catholic Church has withdrawn its reluctant tolerance of the MAD doctrine and now condemns it.
The Episcopal Church and the Society of Friends have asked for Unilateral Nuclear Disarmament.
It’s time we started to trust our Divine Creator for our future well being and put an end to the madness of this dangerous.nuclear stand-off.
**
ncronline.org/news/peace-justice/catholics-press-nuclear-weapons-ban-un-treaty-review-conference

fciv.org/downloads/Holy%20See%20Contribution-Vienna-8-DEC-2014.pdf
Click to expand...
Well, I do understand and agree with you in theory. I agree that it would be ideal if we disarmed.

However, I also think that we as Americans have far more important things to correct about ourselves than our stock of weaponry.

Especially because, for the moment, nuclear weaponry being stocked is actually good.

Don’t believe me? Imagine how fast Russia and the US would be at war over Syria if it weren’t for nuclear weapons.
 
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