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Dakota_Roberts
Guest
Person confesses and comes to the Faith in strength,
Person confesses and comes to the Society in strength,
Could the Catholic Church ever change its teaching on homosexuality?
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Person confesses and comes to the Society in strength,
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Charlemagne_II
Guest
catholic1
I understand the principle you expound on here, but this says nothing of whether or not current church teaching is true.
Do you doubt it is true? Not only that it is current Church teaching, but that the teaching goes back to St. Paul in the New Testament and Moses in the Old Testament.
Where would be the Scriptural or Church teaching anywhere in history that sees sodomy as anything but a damnable offense? Yet some Catholics today want to see sosomy validated by enshrining it in the sacramental state.
I take it you are a Catholic layperson. Do you understand that you don’t get to change or challenge infallible Church teachings on the grounds that they are not true?
That is a Protestant attitude, because Protestant (so they say) do not believe in infallible Church teachings. And so you get thousands of versions of Protestant Christianity. Do you want to see thousands of versions of Catholicism too?
“And I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.” (John 10:16)
I understand the principle you expound on here, but this says nothing of whether or not current church teaching is true.
Do you doubt it is true? Not only that it is current Church teaching, but that the teaching goes back to St. Paul in the New Testament and Moses in the Old Testament.
Where would be the Scriptural or Church teaching anywhere in history that sees sodomy as anything but a damnable offense? Yet some Catholics today want to see sosomy validated by enshrining it in the sacramental state.
I take it you are a Catholic layperson. Do you understand that you don’t get to change or challenge infallible Church teachings on the grounds that they are not true?
That is a Protestant attitude, because Protestant (so they say) do not believe in infallible Church teachings. And so you get thousands of versions of Protestant Christianity. Do you want to see thousands of versions of Catholicism too?
“And I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.” (John 10:16)
Mark121359
Well-known member
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simpleas
Guest
Yes, and I’d be one of them! Interesting reading, some answers make me think, that people must be saints on this forum
No disrespect intended, just some are so matter of fact it makes me question a whole lot more. I’m not great at getting my points across, but its all not so black and white as we think. I just know that jesus will never leave me in my distress, regardless of what my faith teaches me.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
Oh really? Do share with us what is not black and white about the Church’s moral doctrine on sexuality, which includes (but is not limited to) homosexual behavior.
The Franciscan Brother trained in theology beyond what the typical lay person receives has responded to the question of binding moral law, on many threads. Moral law in the Church does not change. Sometimes the explanation of that moral law changes, but not the Truth of it, nor the permanence of it. The Church’s integrated doctrine on human sexuality is based on a combination of revelation (Scriptural), Sacred Tradition, and natural law. There’s no “change” within the calculus of that.
The OP asked a question. The question was centered on the teaching. **(See thread title) ** The matter of individual conformity to the teaching – difficulty with that, struggle with that – is what is not a black-and-white issue, for (I presume) any of us, including for many saints.
Struggle and difficulty never modify or “change” moral doctrine. Not in the Roman Church, anyway. But there are many non-Catholic faith traditions whose doctrine changes depending on popular opinion, “scientific research,” and other variables. Truth, by definition, does not vary. That’s what’s different about Catholicism vs. many other religions. The premises of what can and cannot change are fundamentally different from what operates in those religions and also from what occurs in secular society.
Regarding your other point, I’m glad that you correctly understand that Jesus will not leave any of us in distress, as long as we do our best to follow His commandments honestly and sincerely.
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fix
Guest
Like the threads on contraception people will not accept the truth because then they must stop doing what they are doing. You cannot separate doing wrong actions from self deception. They very much go together.
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tskrobacz
Guest
While the church could of course change its teachings… that would have the effect of drawing into question any/all of the churches teaching and shake the notion that she is a rock on which we can depend. In some sense it would send a message that the deep seated truths and long held traditions of the church are open for discussion.
That does not seem to be a good way forward!
That does not seem to be a good way forward!
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Charlemagne_II
Guest
Catholic 1
-It is statements like these that make people think you can’t be Catholic and ask questions.
Of course you can be a Catholic and ask questions. You just can’t be a Catholic and make up non-Catholic answers.
-It is statements like these that make people think you can’t be Catholic and ask questions.
Of course you can be a Catholic and ask questions. You just can’t be a Catholic and make up non-Catholic answers.
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Bookcat
Guest
Q: Could the Catholic Church ever change its teaching on homosexuality?
A: No.
A: No.
Mark121359
Well-known member
Great post! I’d be interested in hearing the answer to that question in boldface myself!Oh really? Do share with us what is not black and white about the Church’s moral doctrine on sexuality, which includes (but is not limited to) homosexual behavior.
The Franciscan Brother trained in theology beyond what the typical lay person receives has responded to the question of binding moral law, on many threads. Moral law in the Church does not change. Sometimes the explanation of that moral law changes, but not the Truth of it, nor the permanence of it. The Church’s integrated doctrine on human sexuality is based on a combination of revelation (Scriptural), Sacred Tradition, and natural law. There’s no “change” within the calculus of that.
The OP asked a question. The question was centered on the teaching. **(See thread title) ** The matter of individual conformity to the teaching – difficulty with that, struggle with that – is what is not a black-and-white issue, for (I presume) any of us, including for many saints.
Struggle and difficulty never modify or “change” moral doctrine. Not in the Roman Church, anyway. But there are many non-Catholic faith traditions whose doctrine changes depending on popular opinion, “scientific research,” and other variables. Truth, by definition, does not vary. That’s what’s different about Catholicism vs. many other religions. The premises of what can and cannot change are fundamentally different from what operates in those religions and also from what occurs in secular society.
Regarding your other point, I’m glad that you correctly understand that Jesus will not leave any of us in distress, as long as we do our best to follow His commandments honestly and sincerely.
Peace, Mark
Mark121359
Well-known member
And truly it is as simple as that…though, I’m learning day by day on here that many would disagree! 
Peace, Mark
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InSearchofGrace
Guest
Person (the poster) confessed he gave in to temptations, fell to sinful pleasures of the flesh, got up, in remorse and made amends, came back to the Faith, indeed in strength.
Person (Jason Collins, presumably) confessed to being gay all along to Society. Not a clear disclosure of homosexual inclination or a life actively engaging in homosexual acts in private. No remorse but done to get a secret off his chest, an apparent calculation to gain sympathy or bump to fame that has nothing to do with his athletic record, perhaps asking permission and understanding to live as a homosexual wishing to partner with another homosexual openly. This is a measure of strength? Hardly.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
Who said Catholics “can’t ask questions?” That’s not what is being asserted. What is being asserted is that when their questions are definitively answered, including with references to magisterial documents, they refuse to accept the answers as binding and authoritative for them personally, because of their individual struggles with whatever that teaching is.
Again, several times now:
Struggles with conforming to the teachings have no effect on the permanence and legitimacy of the teaching.
[Defendant to Court: “but Your Honor, I find stealing just so irresistibly attractive, that I can’t help myself. I struggle with the laws against stealing. Can you please change them, so that my struggle will be over?”] Yeah, that works.
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Dakota_Roberts
Guest
To secular society leaving the closet is “strength”. In both cases they get support for saying something about themselves that other people didn’t previously know.
Mark121359
Well-known member
Wow, did you ever nail it! And this is oh so true with countless threads on here; on topics such as women priests, SSM or whatever. Flat out refusal to accept as you put it so perfectly***" the answers as binding and authoritative for them personally, because of their individual struggles with whatever that teaching is."*** Again, you flat out struck a knockout blow with this post!
That whole paragraph of yours should be cut and pasted to be used to end all “refusal to accept Church authority threads”…now try and say that three times real fast! 
[Defendant to Court: “but Your Honor, I find stealing just so irresistibly attractive, that I can’t help myself. I struggle with the laws against stealing. Can you please change them, so that my struggle will be over?”] Yeah, that works.
Peace, Mark
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InSearchofGrace
Guest
So, to maintain your premise, you switch from strength to “strength.”
The athlete who came out as gay is commended by current culture that thinks down is up and up is down, deeming active gay life as normal, no longer immoral. Notice that the applause is only coming from gay affirming segments that claim they have the entire secular society.
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catholic1seeks
Guest
If you would read through all of my posts (and I know this particular reply of yours is not directly in response to me), you would see that I understand that difficulties with doctrine, cultural changes, popular understanding, and “other variables” do not determine what is Truth–with a capital T. The Truth very much is black-and-white. Either Jesus was God or He is not, for example. And what the magisterium has to say also is very black-and-white. If it were not, there would not be this issue; there would not be this question on this forum posed in this way. Anyone can look up quite easily what the Church says about homosexuality; any person can quite easily see in what manner the hierarchy currently teaches about the subject (e.g., using such terms as “intrinsically disordered” and “intrinsically evil”).Oh really? Do share with us what is not black and white about the Church’s moral doctrine on sexuality, which includes (but is not limited to) homosexual behavior.
The Franciscan Brother trained in theology beyond what the typical lay person receives has responded to the question of binding moral law, on many threads. Moral law in the Church does not change. Sometimes the explanation of that moral law changes, but not the Truth of it, nor the permanence of it. The Church’s integrated doctrine on human sexuality is based on a combination of revelation (Scriptural), Sacred Tradition, and natural law. There’s no “change” within the calculus of that.
The OP asked a question. The question was centered on the teaching. **(See thread title) ** The matter of individual conformity to the teaching – difficulty with that, struggle with that – is what is not a black-and-white issue, for (I presume) any of us, including for many saints.
Struggle and difficulty never modify or “change” moral doctrine. Not in the Roman Church, anyway. But there are many non-Catholic faith traditions whose doctrine changes depending on popular opinion, “scientific research,” and other variables. Truth, by definition, does not vary. That’s what’s different about Catholicism vs. many other religions. The premises of what can and cannot change are fundamentally different from what operates in those religions and also from what occurs in secular society.
Regarding your other point, I’m glad that you correctly understand that Jesus will not leave any of us in distress, as long as we do our best to follow His commandments honestly and sincerely.
What is not so black-and-white, and what I would guess the user you are responding to might have in mind, is the actual search for truth. The Church “develops” its understanding of throughout history because it has the Spirit’s guidance, yes, but it learns from its experience and through the sciences as well. I can only point back to the “no salvation outside the Church” teaching which had a very profound development in the Church’s magisterium. People on this thread had the view that, as for that teaching, the teaching in the time of Pope Boniface and Pope Eugene is easily reconciled with today’s. But I really do think that such a reconciliation is our looking retrospectively, believing there cannot be any change in the past because, well, “There cannot be change in faith or morals.”
I believe the Holy Spirit guides God’s Church, and I believe that over a process of time God does guide the Church into all Truth. Look how long it took for the Church to define the Trinity, for example–an essential item of faith. Do we really think the first disciples understood the Trinity the same way we do now, or the Christians of the fourth century did? Of course not! But this is “development,” not “change.” Right! But I do not see how God cannot guide the Church into a deeper understanding of sexuality, at the appropriate time, just how God guided the Church at various times to a fuller understanding of Mary’s role in salvation history with the Immaculate Conception and Assumption. Catholics at the time of the definition of Papal Infallibility thought that was a mistake, an error, but it turns out to be the teaching of the Church.
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InSearchofGrace
Guest
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