Could The Mormon Church Be The "true Church" Of Christ

[dianaiad]

A few quotes of Joseph Smith from his diary

PROPHECY OF CHRIST’S RETURN: “I have no doubt of the truth. Were I going to prophecy I would prophecy the end will not come in 1844 or 5 or 6 or 40 years more (“more” is lined through)…I prophecy in the name of the Lord God, and let it be written, that the Son of Man will not come in the heavens till I am 85 years old, 48 years hence or about 1890.” (April 6, 1843, p. 349)

NOTE: As we know, 1890 has come and gone; and Joseph Smith never made it to age 85. He died at the age of 38.

VOICE SPEAKING TO JOSEPH, PROPHECY OF CHRIST’S RETURN: “I earnestly desired to know concerning the coming of the Son of Man and prayed, when a voice Said to me, ‘Joseph my son, if thou livest until thou art 85 years old thou shall see the face of the Son of Man. Therefore let this suffice and trouble me no more on this matter.’” (April 2, 1843, p. 349)

Now of course this is a false prophecy not different than the many times the JWs have predicted the end of the world all being false and ignoring what the bible says “that only the Father knows”. Even though this is a “red flag” about Joseph Smith, many were still led into his teaching showing lack of sound reasoning.

Wow.

Talk about taking things out of context; this is one of the most egregious examples of that I have ever seen. First, though you did kindly give us dates and page numbers, you sorta forgot the BOOK. Yes, you said ‘Joseph Smith’s diary,’ but you didn’t give us the site, or the publication.

I know the quote very well, however, and it was easy to find. Here is the part you neglected to include; the lines immediately after the part you gave us here:

I was left thus without being able to decide wether this coming referred to the beginning of the Millenium, or to some previous appearing, or wether I should die and thus see his face. I believe the coming of the son of man will not be any sooner than that time." (boap.org/LDS/Parallel/1843/2Apr43.html)

Puts a whole different light on your claim, doesn’t it?

C’mon, sir; if you can’t defeat a belief system honestly, then people might begin to think there is something to it. One shouldn’t have to resort to tactics such as this to defeat a false idea.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Wow.

Talk about taking things out of context; this is one of the most egregious examples of that I have ever seen. First, though you did kindly give us dates and page numbers, you sorta forgot the BOOK. Yes, you said ‘Joseph Smith’s diary,’ but you didn’t give us the site, or the publication.

I know the quote very well, however, and it was easy to find. Here is the part you neglected to include; the lines immediately after the part you gave us here:

I was left thus without being able to decide wether this coming referred to the beginning of the Millenium, or to some previous appearing, or wether I should die and thus see his face. I believe the coming of the son of man will not be any sooner than that time." (boap.org/LDS/Parallel/1843/2Apr43.html)

Puts a whole different light on your claim, doesn’t it?

C’mon, sir; if you can’t defeat a belief system honestly, then people might begin to think there is something to it. One shouldn’t have to resort to tactics such as this to defeat a false idea.

I don’t really see how this changes what Smith prophesied, and the fact that what he prophesied never occurred. Jesus did not return in 1890.

 

[dianaiad]

The Bible came out of Sacred Tradition.

So it has been said…and given the history of Christianity, I can go with that. However, I got the feeling that the claim is that, if the bible came out of Sacred History, that somehow it also contains all of Sacred History; at least to the point that anything other than the bible is ‘lesser.’

Or not?

I’m still confused al ittle about the relative importance of Tradition outside biblical scripture. What is the difference between Tradition and biblical scripture itself? Where, exactly, does biblical scripture stand?

 

[Arandur]

Your idealism is laudable (“people should seek to understand something before they leave”) but the fact is, they don’t do that. When they don’t know & understand their faith, they leave for a faith that makes “more sense” to them. There are SO MANY to chose from now. (Not faiths that make “more sense” but just “faiths” in general!) And people are very vulnerable at the age of 18-24 because that is such a difficult time for them anyway.

Good observations about people growing up. I agree, particularly about the 18-24 range. I am 27, and would naturally claim that I had more growth than most, but even looking back on my life, I can see some of those things, and certainly in my peers. In many ways, I think, our culture stunts our youth in the college years.

I went through something of a rebellion, too. I spent seven years dismantling (often systematically) everything I believed and attacking it from every angle I could conceive of, exploring all sorts of things I was exposed to. The main catalysts were really getting thrown into a world where I was a real minority in my Catholic belief for the first time in my life; living among strong Bible-belt Protestants and evangelicals, as well as atheists and other religious groups. Another major catalyst was falling in love with a devout Mormon girl (during and after 4 years of close friendship). That ultimately ended only because we realized (just before she went on mission) that it wasn’t going to work unless something changed.

That relationship prepared me for my next relationship–with the wonderful woman who is now my wife, and who also actually believes in the BoM. She is Restoration branch, with her family. Their beliefs are functionally conservative/orthodox Christian, closer to Catholicism in almost all ways even than almost all Protestants, holding to a very tight and conservative view of JS and the BoM. They think the Community of Christ went apostate–and that the Mormons are nuts

Point is, I went through that period, weathered much, came to Catholicism from almost an outsider’s view. But I had been given enough catechesis to not just leave the Church behind and out of my further consideration. So I agree, there is truth to what you say.

I can’t answer your question about blasphemous claims. I’ll only suggest that you not “buy in” to the definitions of others. To me Mormonism (which is NOT Christian in any traditional understanding of the term despite their claims) Islam & all of Protestantism (from which I am an Episcopal convert) is a basket of heresy.

What “definitions of others?” I’m not sure I follow. I try to consider things from other peoples’ perspectives, try to bridge that gap and explain my beliefs in their own terms. At some point, I hope people make the mental leap to my side and try looking at things the way I see them, too

As for baskets of heresy, yes there are false teachings, but the Spirit still works among many of those people. Anywhere the Spirit wants to work is somewhere I want to help, and have an eye open for what He does there. I think there’s still a lot we can learn from many of these non-Catholic groups, though they are not in the fullness of truth.

 

[MelanieAnne]

I don’t really see how this changes what Smith prophesied, and the fact that what he prophesied never occurred. Jesus did not return in 1890.

I’ll add that it is kind of you, most considerate, to overlook speculation as to whether JS has, since the time of that speculation and his subsequent early death, seen the face of Jesus somewhere.

 

[dianaiad]

I don’t really see how this changes what Smith prophesied, and the fact that what he prophesied never occurred. Jesus did not return in 1890.

You DON’T?

Oh my. Well, Jonah prophesied that the city of Nineveh would be utterly destroyed if the inhabitants didn’t repent…and when they actually repented, he was truly P’O’d about it.

So…was that a 'false prophecy," because there were conditions to it, and those conditions were not met?

Well, in this case Joseph himself was not making a prophecy without condition; he mentioned at least one–that he might not be alive to see Christ come, and that the prophecy might well refer to a meeting with Him after Joseph’s death.

In fact, all Joseph was really sure of was that Christ would NOT come before the time mentioned (when Joseph would have been in his eighties…)and he was certainly right about that, wasn’t he?

C’mon, Rebecca, be fair at least about this one. This is ludicrous.

 

[MelanieAnne]

What “definitions of others?” I’m not sure I follow. I try to consider things from other peoples’ perspectives, try to bridge that gap and explain my beliefs in their own terms. At some point, I hope people make the mental leap to my side and try looking at things the way I see them, too

In suggesting you not “buy into” the “definitions of others” I’m merely suggesting that you hold fast to your faith and not allow yourself to be swayed by the various definitions and descriptions of faith, God, Jesus, etc., that others provide, usually while promoting other faiths. In other words, do not follow the example of those poorly catechized in the faith have followed in leaving the Catholic faith.

The faith you have chosen is the One True Faith (notwithstanding the title of this thread! ) TEACH! You have a lot to offer!

 

[RebeccaJ]

So it has been said…and given the history of Christianity, I can go with that. However, I got the feeling that the claim is that, if the bible came out of Sacred History, that somehow it also contains all of Sacred History; at least to the point that anything other than the bible is ‘lesser.’

Or not?

Scripture contains the teachings of the Apostles and Prophets.

Sacred Tradition (not Sacred History) contains the writings of the NT, but that is not all that is contained.The liturgies. The process for teaching adults. All the writings of the ECF’s and Saints. Prayers, such as the Liturgy of the Hours. The rites surrounding the Sacraments. Orthodox teaching and belief.

Sacred Scripture is the word of God. Sacred Tradition is all that the Church contains pertaining to the purpose of the Church. That is, to teach the Good News of our Salvation and bring all to baptism.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Well, in this case Joseph himself was not making a prophecy without condition; he mentioned at least one–that he might not be alive to see Christ come, and that the prophecy might well refer to a meeting with Him after Joseph’s death.

In fact, all Joseph was really sure of was that Christ would NOT come before the time mentioned (when Joseph would have been in his eighties…)and he was certainly right about that, wasn’t he?

C’mon, Rebecca, be fair at least about this one. This is ludicrous.

I actually saw that one coming, does that make me a prophet? prophetess?

DO I GET GOLD STARS OR SOMETHING???/

 

[RebeccaJ]

You DON’T?

Oh my. Well, Jonah prophesied that the city of Nineveh would be utterly destroyed if the inhabitants didn’t repent…and when they actually repented, he was truly P’O’d about it.

So…was that a 'false prophecy," because there were conditions to it, and those conditions were not met?

Well, in this case Joseph himself was not making a prophecy without condition; he mentioned at least one–that he might not be alive to see Christ come, and that the prophecy might well refer to a meeting with Him after Joseph’s death.

In fact, all Joseph was really sure of was that Christ would NOT come before the time mentioned (when Joseph would have been in his eighties…)and he was certainly right about that, wasn’t he?

C’mon, Rebecca, be fair at least about this one. This is ludicrous.

There is no condition. A condition is, do X and/or Y will occur.

There is no do X and/or Y will occur in this “prophecy” of Smith’s. This is just Smith making stuff up (as usual).

In the light you put it in, I wouldn’t even go as far to call it a prophecy.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I actually saw that one coming, does that make me a prophet? prophetess?

DO I GET GOLD STARS OR SOMETHING???/

Will Queen for a day do?

 

[MelanieAnne]

Will Queen for a day do?

I’m sort of drawn to “Serene Highness”, so yeah, that sounds great.

Just no “Goddess”.

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

Hey, welcome. My son went to Biloxi on his mission and knocked on every door in ocean springs – if I got the name right. Glad you obviously survived Katrina. Hope you are doing well.

You seem to be acquainted with Mormonism from the way you speak. No Southern accent, but a pronounced Mormon accent? We believe those folks were resurrected after the “first fruits” of the resurrection, Jesus.

HEY MFBUKOWSKI, Yes, thank goodness we survived Katrina! It is still a mess around here! I’m sure we will get our southern beauty back, but it will be a while! Our economy is struggling badly (casinos are our main source). How did your son like it here? Fortunately my southern accent does show up most of the time in my writings, but it sure does slip away from real fast at times when i get to rambling on…lol but anyways, could you elaborate a little about what how y’all believe that to be different than Mary?

 

[mfbukowski]

I also believe that people should seek to understand something before they leave it or tear it down (the whole fence in the field analogy), and if they find that they misunderstood something they had decided on in the past, to be willing to revisit it

I suppose this applies to Mormonism too?
Are you seeking to understand it or just tear it down?

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

Hey, welcome. My son went to Biloxi on his mission and knocked on every door in ocean springs – if I got the name right. Glad you obviously survived Katrina. Hope you are doing well.

You seem to be acquainted with Mormonism from the way you speak. No Southern accent, but a pronounced Mormon accent? We believe those folks were resurrected after the “first fruits” of the resurrection, Jesus.

I suppose this applies to Mormonism too?
Are you seeking to understand it or just tear it down?

That’s the problem; we can’t understand anything y’all believe because there isn’t anything that proves your principle. Nothing!

 

[mfbukowski]

I’m not criticizing Bukowski. He is a big boy and this is a free country. He can make his own decisions and live with the consequences. But he could be a poster child for the result of poor Catholic catechesis. As such, this isn’t really about him, he’s just a living example.

Hey! I get to be a poster child!! Maybe I can work up to being on milk cartons, then who knows!

I went through 10 years of Catholic school education including two years of high school with the Augustinian fathers, then I transfered to a public school to avoid all the fights and low lifes in Catholic school. Kids were sent to my school to have the priests deal with them because their parents could not deal with them at home. Of course my parents thought they were giving me a good catholic education. I was kinda wimpy and nerdy (that hasn’t changed) and well…didn’t fit. They were having kids out of wedlock and I was saying “What’s a girl?” I do remember being literally kicked in the butt after failing an algebra class. Most of the class failed due to the excellent teaching, but he lined us all up and literally kicked each one of us in the butt. I wonder what he was actually thinking about when he did that…

I am now teaching an entire family of catholics that will soon be baptized into our church. They have good spiritual testimonies, and will make excellent members, but one of the last straws for them was that the priest would not allow one of the daughters to use the church hall for her “sweet 16” because her family had not contributed enough to the church. They paid their tithing for the next year, hoping that daughter #2 could have hers there, and when they went to reseve the hall, the priest said “That will be another $800. please”. They left livid that all he seemed to be after was their money.

They can use our hall for free, and are willing to pay tithing without a problem. I think poor catechesis is only one of your problems.

I am not posting this to be critical-- honestly. It is just my personal experience. I know many have had negative experiences with Mormons as well, and I suppose I will get to hear all those now, but I just wanted you to know that there are always two sides to everything.

And those two sides is what I am here to explore. But first we have to have honest civil dialogue.

 

[mfbukowski]

Arandur, you’re missing one key component in your analysis ~ “teenager/young adult”

In the case I cited, the Catholic-to-Mormon convert was in their late teens/early 20’s (and, as a Grandmother now, my experience is that there is little difference in the maturity between 18-24 & much more maturity is attained 25-30.) Persons in the 18-24 age group mostly have little, if any, “real world” experience, many have yet to pay their own bills (at least not the big ones!) or take care of any need beyond their own (and that in only a very limited sense.) Actually as a result of this, they often are very idealistic & have a strong, sometimes even exaggerated, sense of “justice”, and it is fascinating that their interest is in having others adopt their values and plans for justice, never the reverse.

The above is actually a nice way of saying “they’re young and they really don’t have a clue about life, but they THINK they do and so they go around telling everyone else how to improve themselves and SHARE and it’s just so convenient that THEY have nothing to SHARE but YOU do!” To quote Rebecca (forgive me Rebecca) “DID I JUST SAY THAT?”

(I’m a musician so I’m fond of cymbal crashes, please insert one, musically, here!)

OK, back to the exposition ~ At the same time, these idealistic 18-24 year olds are seeking answers to questions about LIFE, often, in the process, rejecting things of their childhood/youth. (As a side note, I have found that many in my own generation have a spotty record of maturing beyond that point. Now, I’m not saying that the CITED EXAMPLE is in that category, but, FULL DISCLOSURE ~ He is, at least, in the age group, and SO AM I!)

This is the thing. We cannot undo history. The people that left the Church are gone. Should they have gone? Of course not, but they didn’t know that. If they knew the faith, they would have never left. THAT’S THE POINT. And maybe, if they ever learn, they will return. We just don’t know.

That’s the problem ~ people do not know the Catholic faith so they are seduced by something else. Check out the resources right here at CAF ~ a lot of Mormon converts were originally CATHOLIC. I can’t but wonder if the Mormons on this forum aren’t here to just to “up” that number ~ and I’m sure a LOT of them are, but perhaps not all of them, who knows?

But as for the Catholics ~ why would any Catholic, who truly knows and understands the faith, ever be seduced by the incoherence of Mormonism? One answer ~ they never truly understood their Catholic faith.

Your idealism is laudable (“people should seek to understand something before they leave”) but the fact is, they don’t do that. When they don’t know & understand their faith, they leave for a faith that makes “more sense” to them. There are SO MANY to chose from now. (Not faiths that make “more sense” but just “faiths” in general!) And people are very vulnerable at the age of 18-24 because that is such a difficult time for them anyway.

I can’t answer your question about blasphemous claims. I’ll only suggest that you not “buy in” to the definitions of others. To me Mormonism (which is NOT Christian in any traditional understanding of the term despite their claims) Islam & all of Protestantism (from which I am an Episcopal convert) is a basket of heresy.

Honestly, about 40% of my ward is ex-catholic, and we have had about 5 baptisms since the first of the year (six weeks) all ex-catholics. Some will stay, some will probably not quite frankly. But that’s ok – they will either develop their own testimonies or they won’t and we will do all we can to help them.

The reason I am here is not to get converts, but first to make sure I made the right decision, that there is no stone unturned that makes me think I am wrong. And in learning that, I can help others make that decision. All you guys have done for me is make my faith stronger. And you won’t even learn enough about Mormonism enough to make good arguments against an educated Mormon. Of course I have seen no good arguments here that bother me at all. But that’s the point. So I can pass my knowledge on to others.

So all we have to do is educate them. I am being honest that’s all.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Bukowski, I’m not doubting your experience, but I can also say that what you are saying to me is beyond anything I have ever experienced in my parish. Indeed, my pastor is one who emphatically CANNOT be bought, although some have tried and failed. You’ve done a good job of painting the Priest in a poor light, when were you thinking of asking him about his side of the story?

As for using the hall for free at the local Stake Center ~ whoopee, but I never thought it a very charming venue for a wedding reception, for example, to be held in a basketball court.

And using the example you gave of the family you’re in the process of converting, do you really find it persuasive that someone’s testimony is “true” when they convert to get a free room for a party? Let’s see what the retention is when the kids are adults.

The bottom line is, none of this validates your theology.

 

[mfbukowski]

Will Queen for a day do?

Uh oh. Showing your age. That show hasn’t been on for 50 years!

“Do YOU want to be QUEEN for a DAY?”

 

[mfbukowski]

I’m sort of drawn to “Serene Highness”, so yeah, that sounds great.

Just no “Goddess”.