Could The Mormon Church Be The "true Church" Of Christ

[alanjeddy]

John 6 Unless you eat the flesh (original Greek text uses the word TORGO= to eat or gnaw on flesh) and drink the blood of the son of man you have no life in you. Mormons and most Protestants believe that Christ was talking metaphorically. A symbolic presence. The question is then why did His listening Jewish audience leave him. Would they even have left Him if He were talking symbolically? Jesus never called them back.He could read their minds and He knew what they were thinking. Instead He asked his Apostles: “Are you going to leave me too?”

Then for the 3rd time He repeated; " He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood will not die… Jesus said what He meant and He meant what He said…

 

[alanjeddy]

Thanks for the prayers
It is good to know you believe you can know the truth through prayer. Speaking for myself, I have already received my answer

JOHN 8:44…JOHN 8:44

 

[mfbukowski]

(THE BOX ELDER NEWS, THURSDAY, JANUARY 28, 1915 PRESIDENT JOS. F. SMITH’S ADDRESS SUNDAY MORNING, qtd “Message of the First Presidency, Vol 4”, Clark, James R, 1970, Deseret Book)

Note this mentions that Christ was born of a virgin. We have always believed that. So this post proves nothing. The bottom line is that one cannot be a virgin after one has sex

From the Book of Mormon: (no time to clean up extra footnotes- so spelling will look weird)

1 Ne. 11: 13, 15, 18, 20
13 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the great city of Jerusalem, and also other cities. And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of aNazareth I beheld a bvirgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white.
• • •
15 And I said unto him: A virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins.
• • •
18 And he said unto me: Behold, the avirgin whom thou seest is the bmother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.
• • •
20 And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a achild in her arms.
2 Ne. 17: 14
14 Therefore, the Lord himself shall give you a sign—Behold, a avirgin shall conceive, and shall bear a son, and shall call his name bImmanuel.
Alma 7: 10
10 And behold, he shall be aborn of Mary, at bJerusalem which is the cland of our forefathers, she being a dvirgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and econceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.

So you are saying all those people who made those quotes never read the Book of Mormon?

I think they read it.

Are you saying that they did not believe the Book of Mormon?

I think they believed it.

In that case they must have been saying something different than what you understood them to say.

What is your explanation? They could not read? Mormons are stupid? They were lying and teaching a crazy doctrine not supported by the Book of Mormon for fun, and no one would ever figure out they were lying?

Puhlleeeeeezzzzeee.

 

[mfbukowski]

This is yet another case of Mormons playing dumb - a common LDS tactic when trying to deceive non-members and deny their embarrasing doctrines.

I’ll post it one more time:

Mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers through sexual intercourse (I remember how my children were begotten - I was there ). Therefore McConkie (prophet, seer and revelator) was clearly saying that Jesus was conceived through sexual intercourse, just as President Joseph F. Smith was saying.

Are they that ashamed of the teachings of their prophets of God?

Paul

Post it 900 times.

The Book of Mormon says there was a virgin birth.

They obviously meant something other than what you understand them to say. Really, I know you think we are misled, but do you really think we are that stupid?

And if so, why are you spending your time talking to people who believe in bigfoot? You must be stupider if you believe we are that stupid. Go spend hours on a UFO site and convince them they are wrong. Even they are consistent which according to you , we are not. And we never knew it til you pointed it out? Come on guys!!!

 

[mfbukowski]

History of the Church, an official publication of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

You really don’t know much about your religion, do you?

Why don’t you show us that quote. They brought in wine for the guards as I recall, and spent the night singing hymns. Show me that reference please.

 

[mfbukowski]

dianaiad;4767675:

You will notice that every single one of these quotes was emphasizing paternity; that is…GOD is the Father, the Holy Ghost is not.
Thank you for including some of the context that proves this.
As I challenged Rebecca, not a single one of these says that God had sex with Mary. Every one of them is about WHO
Fathered Christ, not HOW

Again you have proven my point. Mormon trinitarian theology believes in a plurality of Gods, each separate and distinct from One Another. Polytheism is at the heart of your beliefs.

Alan

Same argument as above. The BOM says one God. So you must not understand what we believe. Put up all the strawmen you want. You haven’t touched our doctrine.

 

[mfbukowski]

Wow, Paul. I never really knew for sure where my ‘gospel principals’ teacher came up with his ideas for class but this is it, right here. Except that he added the words sexual intercourse to make sure we got the message loud and clear… And again - member of bishopric present - no objections from him.

And if a Deacon in your church tells you that Mary was not a virgin would you believe him?

 

[mfbukowski]

I think we have demonstrated to you and the other mormons that the mormon faith is filled with beliefs that are as far away from Christian orthodoxy as the heavens are above the earth. You are a misguided cult doing the work of satan in leading souls astray.
It is our responsibilty to defend our faith and our members from outright lies.

Hell is real and the devil wants to put us in hell where he can torture us for all eternity.

Gee, I thought you were Catholic. But I guess you are a calvinist evangelical?

 

[StevenFrancis]

I Just Was Talking To Two Mormon That Said They Are The True Church Of Jesus Christ , What Do You Think About This Statement

I don’t think about this statement.

 

[mfbukowski]

Please bukowski, how many conversations have we had where you say you don’t agree with the Mormon teaching that God was once a man? Yet there it is, in your Gospel Principles manual. Where you continually point out it isn’t mormon doctrine, therefor, you don’t believe it.

You have also written similar at MADB.

MEgus claims lds.org contains what mormons believe. Again, this is not true, in two ways.

1- It doesn’t contain things that some or many mormons believe. Things that you don’t call “doctrine”.

2- It does contain things that some or many mormons don’t believe. Things that you don’t call “doctrine”.

Therefore, lds.org does not contain what mormons believe. Stop pretending otherwise.

You don’t understand a bit of what I believe.

He “never” was a man in time. There is not a time he was not God. Speculatively and on faith, I believe he progressed from being like us. If we can become like Him, how did he get to be as he is?

It is a linguistic paradox and I have said it many times before.

Seriously-- just take it as far as theosis. Just take it as far as Mary has progressed — She progressed from totally human to where she is today right? So that means that humans can at least to attain to where Mary is. And using your terminology, we can partake in the divine nature. Why would it not work “backwards” if not forwards?

But it is not doctrine, just as the virgin birth IS doctrine.

 

[mfbukowski]

Bruce R. McConkie

A voice from one sect, looking back to the cross, says: “We were saved 2,000 years ago, and there is nothing we can do about it one way or the other now.”

Another voice proclaims: “Baptism is of no moment; simply believe; confess the Lord with your lips; no more is needed; Christ did it all.”

Another sect sets aside the need for good works with the assertion that there will be a final harmony of all souls with God—all will be saved.

Another sings out about confession, and penance, and purgatory, and the ritualistic rites of a priestly hierarchy. Another says our Lord was a great moral teacher, nothing more. Others believe the virgin birth was only a pious fiction fabricated by simple disciples who also made up the accounts of the miracles.

And so it goes; all sects, parties, and denominations acclaim a Christ molded to fit their diverse theological idiosyncrasies. And as we know, this very babble of voices crying out that salvation comes through Christ, according to this or that conflicting system, is itself one of the signs of the times.

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=533d1f26d596b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

He believed in the virgin birth

We believe in the virgin birth. Here are HUNDREDS of quotes

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=533d1f26d596b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

So the bottom line is: Those statements mean something other than what you think they mean.

More McConkie:

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=f318118dd536c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=17015991d66db010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

Now the Lord in his infinite goodness and wisdom has highly esteemed women from the beginning; he has honored and dignified them in his earthly kingdom, and in his dealings with mankind on earth, in a way that perhaps many of us have never supposed. What I shall now do, if properly guided by the Spirit, is to invite you to view with me successive scenes involving our sisters of the past and our sisters of the future, as these scenes are set forth in the revelations and in our history.
Scene One: Mary, the blessed virgin.

We encounter Mary first in Nazareth of Galilee, perhaps sixteen years of age, being visited by Gabriel, the angelicministrant who is second only to Michael in the heavenly hierarchy. Gabriel announces to her: “Thou shalt have a son. His name shall be called Jesus. He shall be the Son of the Highest. He shall reign on the throne of his father David forever. You will be overshadowed by the power of the Holy Ghost. You will be the mother of the Son of God.” (See Luke 1:30–35.)

In my judgment, Mary is one of the greatest women who has ever lived on earth; the spirit daughter of God our Father. She was chosen to provide a body for his son, who was to be born after the manner of the flesh.

We see Mary travel from Nazareth in Galilee to Bethlehem in Judea to be at the place where the Son of God is destined to be born. We see her large with child, and after a long journey, arriving late at a wayside caravanserai, which consists of a central court in which animals are kept and of surrounding rooms to be occupied by travelers. The rooms in this oriental inn are all filled. We see her, with Joseph, bed down where the animals are tethered; and that night God sends his son into the world, angelic choirs attend, and angels’ voices are heard.

We see her through a long period of difficulty and testing and turmoil in life; she travels with Joseph into Egypt and no doubt stays with relatives or Jewish friends in that land. We see her back in Nazareth as the mother who influences the young and growing years of God’s son, who teaches him to crawl and to walk and to speak and to learn the Shema and the various other Jewish religious requirements which then prevailed. We see her at Cana of Galilee, having some control and influence at a wedding feast, inviting her son to do something that commenced his public ministry of miracles.

We see her, finally, standing before a cross when her son says to John, his beloved disciple, “Behold thy mother,” and to her, “Behold thy son.” (John 19:26, 27.) And John from that hour took her into his own home.

I think we see in Mary a pattern of piety and submission to the will of the Lord which is the perfect example for all women.

 

[mfbukowski]

And more Mc Conkie:

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=a2ea61cb2b86b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

The earliest scriptural allusion to Mary is found in the writings of Moses. The Father, speaking to the serpent in the Garden of Eden after the transgression of Adam and Eve, says: “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, between thy seed and her seed; and he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.” (Moses 4:21; compare Gen. 3:15.)

A direct reference to the Savior’s earthly mother was made by Isaiah about 700 b.c.: “… Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.” (Isa. 7:14.) The New Testament identifies this as a prophecy referring to Mary and the birth of Jesus. (See Matt. 1:22–23.)

The Nephites communicated in even plainer language. About 600 years before the birth of Jesus, Nephi said:

“… I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white.

“And it came to pass that I saw the heavens open; and an angel came down and stood before me. …

“And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.

“And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms.

“And the angel said unto me: Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Son of the Eternal Father!” (1 Ne. 11:13–15, 18, 20–21.)

Later, 124 years before the birth of the Savior, King Benjamin explained that an angel had visited him and explained that the Redeemer should “be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.” (Mosiah 3:8.)

Still later, about 80 years before the Lord’s birth, Alma taught the people: “And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.” (Alma 7:10.)

Such specific details about Mary couldn’t have been known so long beforehand unless she had been appointed to that calling in the premortal life.

How many more quotes would you like? Let’s see, they limit the length of these threads to 1000 posts, but they usually look for an excuse to stop them around 750, so if I posted 30 a day…

 

[Arandur]

Wow, I fell way behind on this thread. About 10 pages. I’m not sure I’ll catch up. Some things in this last post caught my eye, though.

Speculatively and on faith, I believe he progressed from being like us.

“from being like us” makes no sense if God was first. We are like Him because He is the ultimate point of reference. Saying that “God is like us” reverses the point of reference and causation.

If we can become like Him, how did he get to be as he is?

He always is as He is. God did not need to progress. By definition He is infinitely great, which means the idea of becoming “greater” is nonsensical.

It is a linguistic paradox and I have said it many times before.

Yes, but that should tell you something. You seem to be trying to describe something and claim that it is true (some kind of progression of God) when the very concepts are incompatible, contradictory, impossible. In other words, you can say the words of the claim, but it has no meaning.

Seriously-- just take it as far as theosis. Just take it as far as Mary has progressed — She progressed from totally human to where she is today right? So that means that humans can at least to attain to where Mary is. And using your terminology, we can partake in the divine nature. Why would it not work “backwards” if not forwards?

I think you may be operating on a misunderstanding of Mary. How do you think she has “progressed?” She, like all of us, was created for a purpose and given gifts according to that purpose. She passed on into Heaven and lives eternally with God (something we all can achieve and believe that many have achieved). She is Queen of Heaven as Queen Mother of the King (Jesus), but that describes a role, a position. We all expect to have roles to play still in Heaven, work to do. So I really don’t see what difference you’re trying to describe with Mary, or what “progression.”

 

[Bill_Pick]

Bruce R. McConkie

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=533d1f26d596b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

He believed in the virgin birth

We believe in the virgin birth. Here are HUNDREDS of quotes

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=533d1f26d596b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

So the bottom line is: Those statements mean something other than what you think they mean.

More McConkie:

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=f318118dd536c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=17015991d66db010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

Within Christianity there are very few essential doctrines that define what it means to be a Christian. These essential doctrines are,
Jesus is both God and man (John 1:1,14; 8:24; Col. 2:9; 1 John 4:1-4).
Jesus rose from the dead physically (John 2:19-21; 1 Cor. 15:14).
Salvation is by grace through faith (Rom. 5:1; Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 3:1-2; 5:1-4).
The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus (1 Cor. 15:1-4; Gal. 1:8-9).
There is only one God (Exodus 20:3; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8).
God exists as a Trinity of persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. (See Trinity).
Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary (nature of incarnation)

 

[truthsilence]

And what would be the point of doing this? Why would anyone do this?

Go look on MADB. Every point I mentioned is being discussed there at almost any given moment. At your church meetings, these things are discussed and emphasized. But for whatever reason, when we try to talk about them here you all deny they’re talking about them anywhere. That was the point. And I don’t know why. You tell me why?

 

[truthsilence]

And if a Deacon in your church tells you that Mary was not a virgin would you believe him?

If a Deacon told us that Mary is not a Virgin, I’m pretty sure his preaching days in the church would be over.

 

[Stephen168]

And if a Deacon in your church tells you that Mary was not a virgin would you believe him?

“IF” is used a lot in Mormon Apologetics.

 

[mfbukowski]

“IF” is used a lot in Mormon Apologetics.

That’s because we get to think for ourselves.

 

[RebeccaJ]

That’s because we get to think for ourselves.

It isn’t about thinking for yourself. This is not the first time you have made this accusation. It is about reasonable belief along with faith.

“IF” only and “could have beens” may be fun, but should never be followed to a doctrinal end. Or taught as truth to anyone. This is what mormons do.

As I said, there is no orthodoxy in mormonism.

 

[dianaiad]

Discussion of non-Catholic religions and/or beliefs.

What has insulted you?

This unwillingness to accept a Mormon’s word for what that Mormon believes.

That is insulting in the extreme. I don’t do that to you.

The posts you choose to respond to are your choice.

Indeed, I am responsible only for my own behavior. I’m not ashamed of mine, y’know. I haven’t attacked your beliefs, or told YOU that you don’t really believe what you claim you do.

I have a hard time not seeing complaints like this as anything but Mormons hoping to not have their statements and beliefs challenged.

That doesn’t surprise me, Rebecca. People have a problem seeing their own faults.

Non-Catholics challenge our beliefs here, every day, constantly, on this forum.

I haven’t seen any Mormons do that, though. I certainly have not.

My perception is that mormons are afraid to ask what other non-Catholics believe, about anything. I have never seen a mormon do that here. Not once.

I have seen plenty of mormon proselyting.

I’m sorry, Rebecca, but that is an untruth. Defending one’s beliefs the way I have been doing…that is, correcting errors about what they actually ARE, is not proselytizing. It is simply correcting erroneous information.

I have also told you what happens when Mormons ask someone else what their beliefs are; we don’t get told. Most of us gave up a considerably long time ago.

What we ARE told is “well, Mormons believe this or that and we don’t…and you aren’t Christian/you’re going to hell.”

Given that most of the time we don’t believe whatever it is we are accused of believing, the whole conversation ends up going south.

For instance:

Rebecca. what do you believe about, say…the need for baptism and who does it? Why is it so important to baptize an infant that you will accept one performed by a Mormon nurse baptizing a baby who is in immediate danger of death?

…and yes, an LDS nurse will do this for the parents if the child is in that desperate a situation, even though he or she does not believe that the infant is in need of such. And yes, I am well aware that such an action does indeed ‘count’ in your faith.