Could The Mormon Church Be The "true Church" Of Christ

[dianaiad]

To answer the question posed in the topic I would say no. I don’t believe the book for mormon was inspired by God. The bible warns of false profets. I believe every profet that came after Jesus was not inspired by god. The bible warns about this.

matt, I understand what you are saying, but there is a problem with it. You see, if every prophet that came after Jesus was a false prophet, we wouldn’t know anything at all about Him.

After all, HE never wrote a word (except for some drawing in the dirt…and we have no idea what it was He was doodling there). Everything we have of Him we have because of prophets who told us about Him, from Peter to Paul.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Actually…

You might want to look up the idea of “the fortunate fall” in Catholic dialogue and writings.

:ehh:

Oh happy fault which gained for us such a great Redeemer! Is not a declaration that God planned for and/or instigated the Fall.

 

[Stephen168]

Actually…

You might want to look up the idea of “the fortunate fall” in Catholic dialogue and writings.

Sure, where is that in the Catechism?

 

[dianaiad]

You have a fair point here. The only problem is that it is very hard to figure out what is actually “doctrine” among Mormons, even (perhaps especially) on MADB. Catholics, on the other hand have more definite things to point to, more objective references that don’t depend on the word of one person over another. The simplest and most direct is the Creed. Then there are the conciliar documents (some of which don’t make absolute definition, it is true, but they generally say when they do). Then there is the Catechism (again, small caveats within it about what is best known at the time and what is authoritatively defined).

It would help if Mormons could come up with something similar. And please don’t say the Bible, BoM, D&C, or PoGP. As seen on MADB and even among non-Mormon sects that believe in these works, there is much disagreement of theology. Just as Protestants don’t agree on the Bible and thus can’t just point to it to tell people what they believe, neither can anyone else do the same with other scriptures.

You might want to begin with the Thirteen Articles of Faith, which (though Mormons really don’t like the word much) do comprise a 'creed."

the thing about Mormon Doctrine is that it is a great deal simpler than most people want it to be–both LDS and non. Many LDS want to be told what’s what, and the non-LDS don’t want to know that the core doctrine of the church is as tight, and as simple, as it actually is; they want to fold in everything some Sunday School teacher came up with seventy five years ago, especially if they can use it to contradict something someone else came up with forty years ago.

 

[dianaiad]

Sure, where is that in the Catechism?

I don’t know that it is in the catechism. However, you DO have a specific mass written for it, celebrated on “Holy Saturday.” One of the lines in that mass is felix culpa quae talem et tantum meruit habere redemptorem" which is translated “O blessed sin (happy fault) with which recieved as its reward so great and so good a redeemer.”

"The idea that the fall of man was both (a) necessary in order that God’s plan for history be fulfilled and (b) justified in respect of the merits of that plan as a whole stems both from (1) the postulate of God’s omniscience (He must have known even before he created Adam and Eve that they would fall, yet decided to create them nonetheless) and (2) that of His omnibenevolence (He would not have created a world that, viewed in its totality – the whole of universal history – was anything less than the best of all possible worlds *)."Glossary: "Felix Culpa" and "Fortunate Fall"

I didn’t find out about this in religious studies, but in English lit: the ‘fortunate fall’ is a very well explored theme, from Milton to Hawthorne. I found the fact that the Catholics actually have a Mass dedicated to it to be fascinating.*

 

[MelanieAnne]

I don’t know that it is in the catechism. However, you DO have a specific mass written for it, celebrated on “Holy Saturday.” One of the lines in that mass is felix culpa quae talem et tantum meruit habere redemptorem" which is translated “O blessed sin (happy fault) with which recieved as its reward so great and so good a redeemer.”

"The idea that the fall of man was both (a) necessary in order that God’s plan for history be fulfilled and (b) justified in respect of the merits of that plan as a whole stems both from (1) the postulate of God’s omniscience (He must have known even before he created Adam and Eve that they would fall, yet decided to create them nonetheless) and (2) that of His omnibenevolence (He would not have created a world that, viewed in its totality – the whole of universal history – was anything less than the best of all possible worlds *)."Glossary: "Felix Culpa" and "Fortunate Fall"

I didn’t find out about this in religious studies, but in English lit: the ‘fortunate fall’ is a very well explored theme, from Milton to Hawthorne. I found the fact that the Catholics actually have a Mass dedicated to it to be fascinating.*

I’ve heard about this in Mormonism too. Are you suggesting some matching of doctrine?

 

[MelanieAnne]

I don’t know that it is in the catechism. However, you DO have a specific mass written for it, celebrated on “Holy Saturday.” One of the lines in that mass is felix culpa quae talem et tantum meruit habere redemptorem" which is translated “O blessed sin (happy fault) with which recieved as its reward so great and so good a redeemer.”

"The idea that the fall of man was both (a) necessary in order that God’s plan for history be fulfilled and (b) justified in respect of the merits of that plan as a whole stems both from (1) the postulate of God’s omniscience (He must have known even before he created Adam and Eve that they would fall, yet decided to create them nonetheless) and (2) that of His omnibenevolence (He would not have created a world that, viewed in its totality – the whole of universal history – was anything less than the best of all possible worlds *)."Glossary: "Felix Culpa" and "Fortunate Fall"

I didn’t find out about this in religious studies, but in English lit: the ‘fortunate fall’ is a very well explored theme, from Milton to Hawthorne. I found the fact that the Catholics actually have a Mass dedicated to it to be fascinating.*

Just out of curiosity, I looked this up. Holy Saturday is not a Holy Day of Obligation. There is no Mass. It is a day of meditation and prayer. There is no liturgy in any Missal for Holy Saturday. Just FYI.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Just out of curiosity, I looked this up. Holy Saturday is not a Holy Day of Obligation. There is no Mass. It is a day of meditation and prayer. There is no liturgy in any Missal for Holy Saturday. Just FYI.

I think she is referring to Easter Vigil and the Exsultet.

 

[Stephen168]

I don’t know that it is in the catechism. However, you DO have a specific mass written for it, celebrated on “Holy Saturday.” One of the lines in that mass is felix culpa quae talem et tantum meruit habere redemptorem" which is translated “O blessed sin (happy fault) with which recieved as its reward so great and so good a redeemer.”

"The idea that the fall of man was both (a) necessary in order that God’s plan for history be fulfilled and (b) justified in respect of the merits of that plan as a whole stems both from (1) the postulate of God’s omniscience (He must have known even before he created Adam and Eve that they would fall, yet decided to create them nonetheless) and (2) that of His omnibenevolence (He would not have created a world that, viewed in its totality – the whole of universal history – was anything less than the best of all possible worlds *)."Glossary: "Felix Culpa" and "Fortunate Fall"

I didn’t find out about this in religious studies, but in English lit: the ‘fortunate fall’ is a very well explored theme, from Milton to Hawthorne. I found the fact that the Catholics actually have a Mass dedicated to it to be fascinating.*
So you are saying the Catholic Church has a Mass dedicated to the ‘fortunate fall’ held on Holy Saturday. What is the reason for this? How does this make the Mormon understanding of the fall rational?

 

[MelanieAnne]

So you are saying the Catholic Church has a Mass dedicated to the ‘fortunate fall’ held on Holy Saturday. What is the reason for this? How does this make the Mormon understanding of the fall rational?

Rebecca is correct, Diana is referring to a phrase from the Exsultet at Easter Vigil. Out of a service that is several hours long, and occupies 50 pages of the Missal there is a short phrase within the Easter Proclamation (Exsultet) that Diana is quoting.

Having said that, Easter Vigil is not dedicated to this single phrase, so that part of Diana’s post is incorrect. There is no Mass dedicated or written for this phrase.

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

It seems as though the Mormon members care more about their own importance in the afterlife, rather than them trying to be as close to God as possible (I’m talking about Heaven, God’s Heaven, not the Mormon members own universe). Is there any worship of God or Jesus? Don’t misunderstand my comment because I know that Mormons are wonderful people, again, I am married to one. I hear it is more of a reflection of their own life experiences when attending a Mormon church, rather than a day of worship. I am sorry if I sound blunt, but I have a hard time believing that the God I worship is the same God Mormons worship. It seems as though I am reading about a whole different Bible when I read ya’lls interpretation of it. I, on the other hand, love the idea of me going to Heaven with God for all of eternity, and serving him for eternity. I do not like the idea of me being subordinate to someone that I was on earth with, in our own universe. I want to know that the God I worship here on earth will be the God I will be subordinate to for all of eternity in God’s Heaven! I’m sorry if I do not make any since, it’s very hard to put into words what I am trying to explain. I feel that I am being blasphemous if I even let my mind think I could be at the same stature of GOD or should I say my husband be at the same stature as God, with our own universe. Thank you so much, please do not take me as being criticizing, it really sounds as though I am when I read this back, but I do not know how else to explain what I am thinking.

 

[dianaiad]

I’ve heard about this in Mormonism too. Are you suggesting some matching of doctrine?

Melanie, I know this may be a problem for some Catholics, but Mormon Doctrine and Catholic Doctrine are far more similar in many ways than Catholic Doctrine and that of almost every Protestant group, in some of the most basic things.

It’s one of the reasons I’ve always felt that it’s either you…or us, if we are talking "TRUTH,’ here.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Melanie, I know this may be a problem for some Catholics, but Mormon Doctrine and Catholic Doctrine are far more similar in many ways than Catholic Doctrine and that of almost every Protestant group, in some of the most basic things.

It’s one of the reasons I’ve always felt that it’s either you…or us, if we are talking "TRUTH,’ here.

There are some similarities, you’re right. And I’m only interested in Truth, not recreational posturing or provoking (which is what I think some people do on the internet ~ not you ~ just some, including some right here at CAF.)

There are also huge differences. I’m sure my Mormon friends would prefer that I join their team, but I just cannot overlook some of those huge differences.

But whoever told you there was a Mass written for or dedicated to the Fall of Adam and that “happy fall” ~ or whatever it was called ~ was dead wrong. Maybe anti-Catholic?

 

[dianaiad]

Just out of curiosity, I looked this up. Holy Saturday is not a Holy Day of Obligation. There is no Mass. It is a day of meditation and prayer. There is no liturgy in any Missal for Holy Saturday. Just FYI.

Don’t depend on Wikipedia, Melanie.

This may not be offered now, but until Vatican II, it was fairly universal.

I guess it went the way of priests saying Mass in Latin with their backs to you, meatless Fridays and women wearing Kleenex on their heads if they forgot their prayer veils for Mass.

 

[dianaiad]

There are some similarities, you’re right. And I’m only interested in Truth, not recreational posturing or provoking (which is what I think some people do on the internet ~ not you ~ just some, including some right here at CAF.)

There are also huge differences. I’m sure my Mormon friends would prefer that I join their team, but I just cannot overlook some of those huge differences.

But whoever told you there was a Mass written for or dedicated to the Fall of Adam and that “happy fall” ~ or whatever it was called ~ was dead wrong. Maybe anti-Catholic?

(grin)

Well, I can get you the wording of the Mass, if you like. It’s pretty well known in the literary world, since it is a concept that writers have been working on for centuries.

It’s not something that is, as far as I can tell, a problem for Catholics. It is a simple acknowledgment of the paradox; without Adam and Eve’s sin, we wouldn’t be here, and there would be no need of a Savior–but the Savior’s advent was so incredible a blessing, that isn’t anything that results in it therefore blessed?

It IS a paradox, and worth examining for that reason, if no other. I can only admire the Catholics for not only acknowledging it, but for celebrating it. I rather wish you still did, because it’s something that should be thought about, even if you come down on the side of 'Adam and Eve were just horrible people and everything is their fault."

 

[dianaiad]

:ehh:

Oh happy fault which gained for us such a great Redeemer! Is not a declaration that God planned for and/or instigated the Fall.

No, that statement isn’t…but the idea BEHIND it is. Quite a few Catholic writers and thinkers have pondered upon it: if God IS omniscient, then He knew that Adam and Eve would fall; if He is all powerful, then He could have prevented it. If He is all benevolent, then He would have, of course, created the best world possible for His children.

Therefore…He knew what would happen, and it was for the best. From it we got the Savior.

It’s a concept/paradox that has been pondered by many of the most influential and important thinkers and religious leaders of the Catholic–and any other Christian–world.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Don’t depend on Wikipedia, Melanie.

This may not be offered now, but until Vatican II, it was fairly universal.

I guess it went the way of priests saying Mass in Latin with their backs to you, meatless Fridays and women wearing Kleenex on their heads if they forgot their prayer veils for Mass.

I’m not depending on Wikipedia. I never do. I don’t consider it an authoritative or reliable source for any subject.

I checked the Missal. I checked the Daily Missal, the Weekly Missal and the readings for the entire Liturgical year that began in Advent 2008.

It’s just as I said. What you’re quoting is a phrase in one tiny portion of the Easter Vigil Mass. If you understood the Triduum, you would know that there was no Mass on Holy Saturday. It doesn’t make sense to have a Mass that day, the day in between Good Friday and Easter.

The “Holy Saturday” confusion may just be a confusion about the day of the week and the vigil mass. Easter Vigil is part of the Easter Sunday celebration, it begins late Saturday night and ends at midnight. It’s not considered a “Holy Saturday” mass, it’s considered a vigil Mass for Easter Sunday.

I wasn’t a Catholic back when Masses were said in Latin, but I’m sure someone will come along who was. I seriously doubt there was a pre-Vatican II mass written for or dedicated to the phrase you’re quoting but maybe someone will come along and let us know. There are some very knowledgeable people at CAF who have been Catholics longer than I have. For now, with all due respect, I’m not going to take the word of an English Lit professor about a Catholic Mass.

That last bit about reverence and modesty of dress for the Mass was disrespectful. I’d think a Mormon, especially if you have a Temple Recommend, would be a little bit more circumspect about such matters.

 

[Stephen168]

It’s not something that is, as far as I can tell, a problem for Catholics. It is a simple acknowledgment -]of the paradox; /-]without Adam and Eve’s sin, -]we wouldn’t be here,/-] and there would be no need of a Savior–but the Savior’s advent was so incredible a blessing, that isn’t anything that results in it therefore blessed?

 

[PeeWee]

One way to see the true Church of God is the miracles in His Church. There are many examples of miracles occurring in the Catholic Church-- Saints bodies not decaying, eucharistic miracles, Lourdes, and many other healing miracles. If he did it in our Church, why wouldn’t he do it in others? He is most definitely sending a message…

 

[dianaiad]

So you are saying the Catholic Church has a Mass dedicated to the ‘fortunate fall’ held on Holy Saturday. What is the reason for this? How does this make the Mormon understanding of the fall rational?

It WAS a Mass held on Holy Saturday before Vatican II. I wasn’t aware that it was no longer held. (shrug)

It doesn’t mean a thing one way or the other regarding anything that the Mormons believe…though it certainly indicates that the Mormons are not unique in their understanding of the Fall.