Could The Mormon Church Be The "true Church" Of Christ

[Arandur]

Oh man, not ours. We have DJ’s, dancing, tons of food – you should be at a Samoan wedding sometime – you don’t have to eat for a week after one of those – a roast pig or two – a few line dances (Utah influence you know) and Golly Clem, we really cut a rug!

That’ll tell you, Missy! I told you I was kinda nerdy! A student radical, but kinda nerdy anyway. I think it was the nerds who became radicals. It certainly wasn’t the football players and the cheerleaders.

How connected are you to other Mormon churches, mski? The more you describe your experience and your beliefs, the more extreme an exception it seems to be from everything I’ve ever experienced or heard of, from the Springfield MO, Kansas City/Independence, and Tucson communities I’ve personally had contact with, to the Provo, Salt Lake City, and other Missouri, Colorado, and California communities people I know have had experience with (people who either are Mormons or who had close connections). And that’s not counting all the many Mormons I’ve spoken with on many various forums, or the non-Mormons I’ve had similar connections with who were originally Mormon. Honestly, through the direct and vicarious contact I"ve had with literally hundreds, probably thousands of Mormons, I’ve not come across many of your particular beliefs (and spins on beliefs) and experiences. Are you sure you’re Mormon?

 

[Arandur]

Correct. We would see this as “priestcraft” Simon Magus and all that.

How is that when you’re all on about the letter of the law of tithing a lot more than most are, and yet tithing was explicitly designed (among other things) to cover the needs and employ of the priesthood and sacred grounds?

 

[Arandur]

So, are you saying that Peter was wrong to take the Church to the Gentiles?

After all, that happened after Christ, and it came by revelation.
And revelation comes to Prophets?

Oh, and were all the other Prophets mentioned in the New Testament false prophets then?

I don’t think so.

You better do a little more scripture study.

MEgus

Where did he say that?

Catholics recognize many prophets; we just use the term properly, not the way you do.

Where in the New Testament was there mentioned a “Prophet” who was head of the Church, or how the prophet would be selected, what his duties and boundaries were, etc? Are you saying that Paul was Prophet and head of the Church after Peter? Or was Peter the first and only “Prophet?”

 

[mfbukowski]

You didn’t say your potential converts were specifically told and paid it.

You said that Catholics and Mormons both have tithing as a Biblical goal.

So you weren’t clear. Do not seek to have your lack of clarity somehow be a defect for me.

What I have a problem with is hypocrisy, hiding things, sneakiness, underhandedness, etc. All of which I have personally witnessed in the words and actions of Mormons attempting to convert people to their faith. A true faith doesn’t have to resort to such tactics.

Saying that I never said they knew about tithing or paid it before is a lie, and you either know that or don’t read well.

They already pay tithing as catholics. Just a different name on the check.

That’s one

I am now teaching an entire family of catholics that will soon be baptized into our church. They have good spiritual testimonies, and will make excellent members, but one of the last straws for them was that the priest would not allow one of the daughters to use the church hall for her “sweet 16” because her family had not contributed enough to the church. They paid their tithing for the next year, hoping that daughter #2 could have hers there, and when they went to reseve the hall, the priest said “That will be another $800. please”. They left livid that all he seemed to be after was their money.

That’s two

**YES FOR THE THIRD TIME THEY HAVE BEEN TOLD ABOUT TITHING AND THEY ALREADY PAY IT! IT WILL NOT BE A SACRIFICE BECAUSE ALL THEY HAVE TO DO IS WRITE THE CHECK TO US INSTEAD OF THEIR CHURCH

ARE YOU DEAF OR SOMETHING— THIS IS THE THIRD TIME
**
That’s three. Not a lie.
MelanieAnne;4798448:

And I have lots of Mormon friends Bukowski, really nice people. I have one friend that goes back over 40 years. The entire family considers me “one of them”. I have a really good friend whose daughter works with me, and it standing within 4 feet of me right now as I type this, who is a Mormon.

My friend is the Relief Society President in her local ward. Her daughter (the one that works with me) doesn’t go to church, in fact only one of her 6 children do. I’ve worked with the local stake on their theatrical productions, and when I do they call me Sister XXX (name withheld to protect the guilty ) I speak “Mormon” and when I’m with them, they all treat me as one of them. Most of them probably think I AM one of them.

As for who rattled me cage, it’s not a who, it’s a what. Hypocrisy disgusts me. This whole business you’re doing is a big fat wad of it. You’re all sanctimonious about something if it’s Catholic, but if it’s Mormon, the same thing or even more so, well, that’s all good. And hiding things from potential converts is so obviously a way to trick them. That’s disgusting too…

But then hiding stuff is SO MORMON isn’t it?

You are the hypocrite. Do you talk to your friends like that about Mormonism? Do you really tell them what you believe? And these are some of your tame posts.

 

[mfbukowski]

How is that when you’re all on about the letter of the law of tithing a lot more than most are, and yet tithing was explicitly designed (among other things) to cover the needs and employ of the priesthood and sacred grounds?

This is interpreted as prohibiting the exchange of money for operations of the priesthood

Acts 8
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

But the real reason is that it is part of our doctrine. That’s “all”.

Paying tithing is keeping a commandment

Malachai 8:
8 ¶ Will a man brob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In ctithes and offerings.
9 Ye are acursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the atithes into the storehouse, that there may be bmeat in mine house, and cprove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not dopen you the ewindows of heaven, and pour you out a fblessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts.

You have to pay tithing to understand the commandment, because the blessings are real. You pay tithing with faith, not with money. Honestly. If you pay your tithing the Lord will bless you with enough abundance to get you by. I have seen and experienced case after case after case where if you don’t see how you will get through the month but pay your tithing anyhow, something will happen that will allow you to get through the month unscathed. I don’t expect you to believe that, but it’s true.

If you exercise faith first, the Lord blesses you. Honest.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Do you tell all your Mormon friends?

When it is appropriate, of course.

 

[mfbukowski]

You are the hypocrite. Do you talk to your friends like that about Mormonism? Do you really tell them what you believe? And these are some of your tame posts.

You know, I suspect there is a lot of that going around here. Do you (plural) talk to your spouses and friends and whoever you know who is Mormon about how you really feel?

I talk openly to Catholics about how I feel, though I probably am nicer about it to them than I am here. I’m being honest. But I tell them essentially the same things.

I know RebeccaJ mentioned being at a party where the prophet was. I wonder how she spoke to those at the party.

 

[MelanieAnne]

You are the hypocrite. Do you talk to your friends like that about Mormonism? Do you really tell them what you believe? And these are some of your tame posts.

Gosh you have the weirdest way of looking at disagreements and escalating misunderstandings into something else. Now you’re calling me a liar? Or saying I’m calling you one? What’s that about? There’s no basis for saying that. That’s really over the top Bukowski. But what’s new, huh?

I am not a hypocrite and you have absolutely no basis for saying that, not a bit of it. Are you just making things up? Where did you get that information? From the air? Did you get a “burning in your breast”? What’s THAT about? I tell my friends what I believe and I tell them why I don’t believe some of the things they believe. We don’t fight about it, but we don’t agree. That doesn’t mean we don’t have a lot of other interests in common, and we share those things. I’m sure they wish they could get me on their team, but they won’t EVER. It’s not for lack of trying.

I have personally witnessed some very great evils at the hands of Mormons, some of them very high on the food chain. I’m sure you don’t want to know. Hypocrisy? I think the Mormon hierarchy may have a patent on the process. If they don’t, they should. I’ve witnessed many evils, and they were all different, but they had that one characteristic in common. Hypocrisy and corruption, even at the highest level. Stake Presidents, the First Presidency, the Quorum of the 12. You name it. Hypocrisy with a big capital H.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I know RebeccaJ mentioned being at a party where the prophet was. I wonder how she spoke to those at the party.

Perhaps you forget I live in UT, where one’s employment is directly tied to Mormonism. I didn’t say anything, hello. I had the desire to keep my job.

 

[Arandur]

This is interpreted as prohibiting the exchange of money for operations of the priesthood

Ah, that makes more sense. What was throwing me off was that you seemed to be implying that Catholics, even in that unfortunate anecdote you gave, were doing something wrong. I heard no “exchange of money for operations of the priesthood.”

You have to pay tithing to understand the commandment, because the blessings are real. You pay tithing with faith, not with money. Honestly. If you pay your tithing the Lord will bless you with enough abundance to get you by. I have seen and experienced case after case after case where if you don’t see how you will get through the month but pay your tithing anyhow, something will happen that will allow you to get through the month unscathed. I don’t expect you to believe that, but it’s true.

If you exercise faith first, the Lord blesses you. Honest.

I do tithe, and I do believe and understand that. I didn’t question it. I questioned what seemed to be an erroneous interpretation of tithing based on what seemed like you accusing Catholics of misusing money given in tithe, or at least a holier-than-thou flaunting of how Mormons do things.

 

[jean8]

What do you think this means?
"And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

lamb,
The Mormon church is one of the largest cults in the world.
One reason is , they teach “God used to be a man on another plane” (Mormon doctrine, pg.321)
Would you join a church that teaches this nonsense?

jean8

 

[ricko]

The LDS is not the true church of God, the evidence is overwhelming that it is a religion with beginnings not unlike the Jehovah Witness and many others that came into existance in the last two centurys. Just look at what their “prophets” say:

“Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon?…and when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the most ignorant of their fellows. So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not maid in vain.”—Brigham Young, 1870, Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 271

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

lamb,
The Mormon church is one of the largest cults in the world.
One reason is , they teach “God used to be a man on another plane” (Mormon doctrine, pg.321)
Would you join a church that teaches this nonsense?

jean8

No! I could never be apart of that! Even if I start to let myself get curious about it’s truths, something comes over me and says STOP!! Now, I do think the holy spirit is coming over me and telling me to stop my curiosity right now!! Now that’s what I call the holy spirit talking to you!

 

[ricko]

The Mormons claim that the BOM was written well before the bible. Then how could so many passages be just like the KJV? The only way that is possible is if the BOM was written AFTER the KJV which means the BOM could not have been written before 1611. Here are a few of many identical verses between the BOM and KJV:

Matt. 3:2 : Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Alma 9:25: Repent ye, for the kingdom of heaven is nigh at hand
Matt. 3:4: a leathern girdle about his loins
Mosiah 10:8: girded with a leathern girdle about their loins.
Acts 2:19: blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke
1 Nephi 22:18: even blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke
Acts 3:21: the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets
Alma 40:22: the restoration of those things of which has been spoken by the mouths of the prophets
2 Cor. 3:12: we use great plainness of speech
Enos 1:23: exceedingly great plainness of speech

2 Peter 3:10-12: the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works
3 Nephi 26:3-4: even until the elements should melt with fervent heat, and the earth
1 John 3:8: the works of the devil
3 Neiphi 27:11: the works of the devil
1 John 4:18: perfect love casteth out fear
Moroni 8:16: perfect love casteth out all fear

Some have the exact wording, others changed by a word or two by Joseph Smith. This proves that Smith used parts of the KJV to assist him in writing the BOM. There are many more like the above at mormonstudies.com/bible.htm
Every Mormon should look at the evidence and know that they are being mislead.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Rick, it gets better (or worse, depending on your point of view & how you like to phrase things.) I haven’t made an in-depth study of the texts, but others have and from what I have read right here at CAF, translation errors in the KJV are duplicated in the BOM, which could only happen if the BOM was using the KJV as a source text. There is other evidence of other source texts. And then there is the objective application of rational thought to the entire story of the origins of the BOM.

The problem is that no Mormon wants to believe the facts. Whether it is facts about the BOM text, facts about the utter lack of DNA evidence among Native Americans (North, Central & South) to support the BOM story, facts about all sorts of things ~ such facts simply don’t matter to a committed Mormon (or they deny them and/or offer some explanation that is, objectively, completely unreasonable but seems to satisfy questioning believers.)

We have had Mormons come to visit this forum who, when asked, have said that even if undeniable evidence were presented to them that the whole thing was a big hoax, they would still believe. I suspect this sort of thinking is at least one of the reasons some describe Mormonism as a cult.

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

Rick, it gets better (or worse, depending on your point of view & how you like to phrase things.) I haven’t made an in-depth study of the texts, but others have and from what I have read right here at CAF, translation errors in the KJV are duplicated in the BOM, which could only happen if the BOM was using the KJV as a source text. There is other evidence of other source texts. And then there is the objective application of rational thought to the entire story of the origins of the BOM.

The problem is that no Mormon wants to believe the facts. Whether it is facts about the BOM text, facts about the utter lack of DNA evidence among Native Americans (North, Central & South) to support the BOM story, facts about all sorts of things ~ such facts simply don’t matter to a committed Mormon (or they deny them and/or offer some explanation that is, objectively, completely unreasonable but seems to satisfy questioning believers.)

We have had Mormons come to visit this forum who, when asked, have said that even if undeniable evidence were presented to them that the whole thing was a big hoax, they would still believe. I suspect this sort of thinking is at least one of the reasons some describe Mormonism as a cult.

You are so correct about this!! I have people in my life that would probably not listen if the truth was so inevitable and stared them right in their face. It is scary to think that people could explicitly reject the Church that Jesus built for us! There was not an apostasy!

 

[PaulDupre]

Rick, it gets better (or worse, depending on your point of view & how you like to phrase things.) I haven’t made an in-depth study of the texts, but others have and from what I have read right here at CAF, translation errors in the KJV are duplicated in the BOM, which could only happen if the BOM was using the KJV as a source text.

Here’s an example:

In the KJV of the bible, the Hebrew word for bronze is mistranslated as “steel”, which did not exist during the bronze age.

2 Samuel 22:35 (KJV)
He teacheth my hands to war; so that a bow of steel is broken by mine arms

Job 20:24 (KJV)
He shall flee from the iron weapon, and the bow of steel shall strike him through.

The mistake is imitated in the Book of Mormon:

And it came to pass that as I, Nephi, went forth to slay food, behold, I did break my bow, which was made of fine steel

• 1 Nephi 16:18

Modern bible translators correctly translate the word as bronze:

2 Samuel 22:35 (New International Version)
He trains my hands for battle; my arms can bend a bow of bronze.

Job 20:24 (New International Version)
Though he flees from an iron weapon, a bronze-tipped arrow pierces him.

 

[mfbukowski]

The Mormons claim that the BOM was written well before the bible. Then how could so many passages be just like the KJV? The only way that is possible is if the BOM was written AFTER the KJV which means the BOM could not have been written before 1611. Here are a few of many identical verses between the BOM and KJV:

Matt. 3:2 : Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Alma 9:25: Repent ye, for the kingdom of heaven is nigh at hand
Matt. 3:4: a leathern girdle about his loins
Mosiah 10:8: girded with a leathern girdle about their loins.
Acts 2:19: blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke
1 Nephi 22:18: even blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke
Acts 3:21: the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets
Alma 40:22: the restoration of those things of which has been spoken by the mouths of the prophets
2 Cor. 3:12: we use great plainness of speech
Enos 1:23: exceedingly great plainness of speech

2 Peter 3:10-12: the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works
3 Nephi 26:3-4: even until the elements should melt with fervent heat, and the earth
1 John 3:8: the works of the devil
3 Neiphi 27:11: the works of the devil
1 John 4:18: perfect love casteth out fear
Moroni 8:16: perfect love casteth out all fear

Some have the exact wording, others changed by a word or two by Joseph Smith. This proves that Smith used parts of the KJV to assist him in writing the BOM. There are many more like the above at mormonstudies.com/bible.htm
Every Mormon should look at the evidence and know that they are being mislead.

Pardon me for asking this way, but how stupid do you think we are? Do you really think we just found this out and never thought of it before?

Joseph knew the bible well. He was comfortable with King James english and translated those sections according to the language he was already familiar with. This is not complex at all! When one translates any technical piece with complex abstract meanings, it just makes sense to use terms that the audience knows and is familiar with.

 

[mfbukowski]

We have had Mormons come to visit this forum who, when asked, have said that even if undeniable evidence were presented to them that the whole thing was a big hoax, they would still believe. I suspect this sort of thinking is at least one of the reasons some describe Mormonism as a cult.

I have undeniable evidence that bread is not flesh and blood. It is called science. People don’t get up from the dead. People don’t get bodily taken to another astral plane called heaven where they live somehow bodily.

Yet you believe all these things which have abundant undeniable evidence don’t happen. Get out of that cult you belong to.

You should find out what we really do believe before you criticize what you pretend we believe. You have no credibility whatsoever.

Please tell your dear friends and family about their cult, you hypocrite.

 

[MelanieAnne]

There are tiny specks of light in many places. Sometimes they’re hard to see.