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marlo
Guest
This Forgery is a fact that you do not want to accept. Which is very common with the Eastern Orthodox
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M
marlo
Guest
Do not be naive sir, look at the rest of text of the Nicene Constantinople creed
**And one holy, catholic and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen". **
its not all about Trinitarian Thelogy, Yes the Creed can be updated.
**And one holy, catholic and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen". **
its not all about Trinitarian Thelogy, Yes the Creed can be updated.
If the Council of Florence is recokened as an Ecumenical Council, then, as I said, nothing less than a council could change it, so you have merely proven my point. (Whether Florence is ecumenical can be argued but I’m not doing that here. Suffice it to say that Pius IX did not feel bound by it.)
But whatever Florence did or did not do has NOTHING to do with my statement that Chalcedon did NOT change the text of the Nicene Creed, as someone I was answering alleged.
To get back to the original issue:
The Original Poster wanted to see the Nicene Creed “updated” with non-Trinitarian doctrines, such as life starting at cocepetion and the Real Presence.
The Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed is a statement of TRINITARIAN THEOLOGY.
To add non Trinitarian issues to it would result in something else OTHER than the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, frequently called the Symbol of Faith.
It is a summary of Trinitarian theology for BELIEVERS that has stood the test of time as it is. It is not supposed to be anything else.
If required by competent authority, I will gladly sign in my blood that I believe that life begins at conception (otherwise I wouldn’t have been named in a $39 million lawsuit for merely praying across the streets from the chop shops) and that the Bread and Wine become the Body and Blood of Christ.
But don’t tamper with the Symbol of Faith!
M
marlo
Guest
The Topic here sir, is to update the Creed and not change it.
and yes, it will not be called the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed,
as the Nicene Creed was later “updated” to Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed,
**
**
and yes, it will not be called the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed,
as the Nicene Creed was later “updated” to Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed,
**
**
\The Church is higher than the Creed, and the creed was created by the Church and not the other way around. As a matter of Dogma to correct a heresy, then it can be updated. It was updated before by the local council of Constantinople and upgraded it to ecumenical creed by the Ecumenical council of Chalcedon together with the council of constantinople as ecumencial. It happened before, it can happen again as the Church is higher than any church father.\
**The Council of Chalcedon did nothing to the Nicene Creed.
And there’s nothing in the Nicene Creed that is heresy.
If it is to be changed, nothing less than an Ecumenical Council can do so.
But any change made to the Nicene Creed means it would no longer be the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed.**
S
StPeterCanisius
Guest
Firstly, I must say I totally agree with Ultima Ratio, the original post was made in good faith, and not questioning the authority of the Catholic Church, and so our replies should also bear witness to that, otherwise they are not answering the question, but just diverge us from the real issue at hand.
Here is my response:
It is true that the Nicene-Constantinople (Nicene for short) Creed cannot be “updated” since it would no longer be the creed that was arrived at by the Councils of Nicea & Constantinople (hence Nicene Creed for short), but it is also true that the church could use any other creed if it so desired, including a more up-to-date one. As previously stated, The Church created the Creed, not the other way around, so can create new versions whenever it is necessary. However, the CCC (Catechism of the Cath. Church) also tells us that no accepted creed is ever later wrong, or superceded by another, but is just another expression of the same faith, that may be more or less relevant at a particular time, or have a more fuller developed theolgy. It is note worthy that the CCC mentions also the: Apostle’s Creed, and the Creed of St.Athenatius, and does so in such a way as to show that not one of these creeds is “higher” than any other, but all are equal.
Pope Paul VI in 1968 came up with a modern creed. This was widely published at the time, and can be found at the following link:
ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/p6credo.htm
This creed it is not used during the Mass since:
the Catholic Church seeks to call all separated Christians to full unity, and so uses this common creed during Mass (it wasn’t actually inserted officially into the Mass of the Roman Rite until many centuries after the council of Nicene);
The Catholic Church also believes in continuity. The recitation of the Nicene creed at Mass, also reminds catholics of the ancient unchanging nature of our faith.
However, the church could use a different creed at Mass if it decided to.
**As a final note, it must be said that items such as abortion etc. are moral issues, as opposed to purely faith beliefs. **Traditionally, such moral matters are never put into creeds, but perhaps now is the time to do so.
Here is my response:
It is true that the Nicene-Constantinople (Nicene for short) Creed cannot be “updated” since it would no longer be the creed that was arrived at by the Councils of Nicea & Constantinople (hence Nicene Creed for short), but it is also true that the church could use any other creed if it so desired, including a more up-to-date one. As previously stated, The Church created the Creed, not the other way around, so can create new versions whenever it is necessary. However, the CCC (Catechism of the Cath. Church) also tells us that no accepted creed is ever later wrong, or superceded by another, but is just another expression of the same faith, that may be more or less relevant at a particular time, or have a more fuller developed theolgy. It is note worthy that the CCC mentions also the: Apostle’s Creed, and the Creed of St.Athenatius, and does so in such a way as to show that not one of these creeds is “higher” than any other, but all are equal.
Pope Paul VI in 1968 came up with a modern creed. This was widely published at the time, and can be found at the following link:
ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/p6credo.htm
This creed it is not used during the Mass since:
the Catholic Church seeks to call all separated Christians to full unity, and so uses this common creed during Mass (it wasn’t actually inserted officially into the Mass of the Roman Rite until many centuries after the council of Nicene);
The Catholic Church also believes in continuity. The recitation of the Nicene creed at Mass, also reminds catholics of the ancient unchanging nature of our faith.
However, the church could use a different creed at Mass if it decided to.
**As a final note, it must be said that items such as abortion etc. are moral issues, as opposed to purely faith beliefs. **Traditionally, such moral matters are never put into creeds, but perhaps now is the time to do so.
B
bpbasilphx
Guest
\I find it interesting that the Melkite Churches themselves felt his attempts at ecumenism were impractical as did the Catholic Church.\
**Actually, 24 of the 26 bishops of the Melkite Synod signed his initiative.
**
**Actually, 24 of the 26 bishops of the Melkite Synod signed his initiative.
**
M
MIKE46
Guest
What did the Melkite Patriarch, Maximos V, and the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch, Ignatious IV think of it when it was later presented to them?.\I find it interesting that the Melkite Churches themselves felt his attempts at ecumenism were impractical as did the Catholic Church.\
**Actually, 24 of the 26 bishops of the Melkite Synod signed his initiative.
**
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bpbasilphx
Guest
If you really want to know, you can find out elsewhere.What did the Melkite Patriarch, Maximos V, and the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch, Ignatious IV think of it when it was later presented to them?.
Patriarchs are NOT mini-popes, with the right to overrule the Synods, if that’s what you are wondering.
At least one Orthodox bishop of the Antiochian Church felt it provided grounds for reconciliation.
C
Crumpy
Guest
If the Nicene Creed were to be “updated” it wouldn’t be the Nicene Creed anymore.It’s a beautiful and ancient prayer, but I’m curious if traditionalist Catholics would object if clauses about beliefs in life beginning at conception and the Real Presence of the Holy Eucharist were added to it, as those seem to be the most scandalous and widespread heretical beliefs held by Catholics in the 21st century.
Or if that were not possible, should the anti-modernist oath by Pope St. Pius X be updated and mandated to be sworn by priests and deacons?
I understand your point entirely how it would be beneficial to have people reciting the correct version of doctrines, when it came time for a profession of faith.
Devout Jews still obey the commands of Deut 6:4ff and recite the Shema twice a day.
“Hear, O Israel, the LORD is our God, the LORD is one (alone)”
“You shall love the LORD your God with your whole heart, your whole soul, and with all your strength; and you shall love your neighbor as yourself.” ( a good reminder when thinking about the misery in Haiti right now.)
Jesus expanded the Shema (“Hear”) to say “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.”
There is a progression from easy to difficult in the Shema. Loving God in ones heart is certainly not automatic or to be taken for granted, but it is the first part of the command. Then, a little more difficult, to love God with all our soul – meaning even to the point of death. With all our strength means to love even with all of our earthly goods. Jesus inserted that we should love God with all of our mind – certainly not to be double-minded, saying yes and no to God at the same time.
This prayer is one that I’ve thought could be an alternate to the Nicene Creed at Mass, at Masses where the Nicene Creed is not obligatory.
The Magnificat is the essence of another type of creed that might be an alternate to the Nicene Creed.
These alternates have the feature of being scriptural expressions not only of faith but of allegiance and a commitment to action in our lives.
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
When we confess that we believe in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, that IS a rejection of abortion and an affirmation of Transubstantiation. We don’t need to change the Creed, we need better catechesis.
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bpbasilphx
Guest
Good point.When we confess that we believe in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, that IS a rejection of abortion and an affirmation of Transubstantiation. We don’t need to change the Creed, we need better catechesis.
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