Could the Pope allow priests to grant annulments?

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That’s interesting and something I was not aware of. Does that apply to every person in the tribunal?

To your second point what makes marriage a legal matter? I understand it is to the government just curious why the church would view a sacrament as a legal issue. That in itself is a problem to me is it’s a legal issue apparently not a pastoral issue. Also I had a remarried Catholic in mind when I said other sin
Some people are file clerks, receptionists, archivists, and also Canon lawyers.
Also there’s a Judge for each Diocese that is able to review the clerical cases from other Diocese. (For impartiality. At least that’s what one priest who is a canon lawyer told me). 🤷 Maybe they’re on loan, I don’t know.

The church always operates under the laws of the State with regard to marriages. We can’t skip marriage licenses, and they are bound to send the signed marriage record back to he courthouse immediately.

The pastoral part comes in the counseling and advice regarding sacramentality or validity in the eyes of the church.
 
If I understand it correctly, one reason that both parties must be given the opportunity to participate in the process, is that either party can appeal the decision. Some years ago Joseph Kennedy divorced his wife, and also filed for a decree of nullity. He didn’t wait for the decision but remarried in the meantime. The annulment was later granted. His former wife, an Episcopalian, disagreed with the decision, and she appealed the decree of nullity. It went eventually to the Roman Rota, which eventually overturned the original decision. So both parties have a right of appeal. The matter became public, if I recall correctly, when the appellant made it public.
 
Bingo my friend! I am saying that it could be possible people would be willing to go through a longer process than a possibly more stressful process. It would be more pastoral in that you have a priest that is looking at it from a more pastoral stand point than a tribunal of people that you have no personal relationship with and cannot possibly connect with the person/persons asking for the annulment.
I fear the basic problem here is something quite different than a difference of opinions on how the process should occur.

We cannot get anywhere with this conversation until we understand the topic itself.

Please post, in your own words, the definition of an annulment, as you understand it. Feel free to expand on that, and indeed, that would probably be helpful.*

What does an annulment mean, or what does it do?

In general terms, how does one determine if a marriage situation warrants an annulment?

Can you give a few hypothetical examples of a situation where an annulment is appropriate (brief ones)?

To the other posters on the forum: please be pastoral. I’ve asked the OP to describe something in his own words. Let’s not be too hasty with criticism here.

*Yes, I know. “Declaration of Nullity.” Bear with me. Such subtleties are not necessary at this stage in the conversation.
 
That’s interesting and something I was not aware of. Does that apply to every person in the tribunal?

To your second point what makes marriage a legal matter? I understand it is to the government just curious why the church would view a sacrament as a legal issue. That in itself is a problem to me is it’s a legal issue apparently not a pastoral issue.
Marriage is a covenant. It involves promises and debts of the spouses to each other. As such, it has a legal element.
Also I had a remarried Catholic in mind when I said other sin.
A decision about marriage validity is supposed to be made solely on the facts and circumstances that existed at the time of the marriage, not anything that happened later. A divorce and civil marriage later should have no bearing on the final determination.

I would think that a pastor handling an annulment process might find it hard to be objective and not to take the second “marriage” into account.
 
If I understand it correctly, one reason that both parties must be given the opportunity to participate in the process, is that either party can appeal the decision. Some years ago Joseph Kennedy divorced his wife, and also filed for a decree of nullity. He didn’t wait for the decision but remarried in the meantime. The annulment was later granted. His former wife, an Episcopalian, disagreed with the decision, and she appealed the decree of nullity. It went eventually to the Roman Rota, which eventually overturned the original decision. So both parties have a right of appeal. The matter became public, if I recall correctly, when the appellant made it public.
I don’t really understand this example. As an Episcopalian, wouldn’t the wife be presumed to lack the faith required to give consent to Catholic sacramental marriage?
 
I don’t really understand this example. As an Episcopalian, wouldn’t the wife be presumed to lack the faith required to give consent to Catholic sacramental marriage?
I don’t know the details of the case or the reasons for the granting of the annulment, or the reasons for its reversal. Mrs. Kennedy was certainly no friend of the Catholic Church and considered the annulment process a sham. Yet she was outraged when they declared her marriage invalid. She claims to have been denied the opportunity to present her case for validity.

The timeline of the case certainly appears to be outrageous; apparently she was not notified of the Rota’s decision until months after it was decided, and all that after years in process.

Here are a couple of articles relating to the matter. I’m sure there are more. Heck, she wrote a book about it.

tldm.org/News11/KennedyAnnulmentInvalid.htm

canonlawmadeeasy.com/2009/10/15/what-if-the-other-spouse-doesnt-want-the-annulment/
 
I don’t know the details of the case or the reasons for the granting of the annulment, or the reasons for its reversal. Mrs. Kennedy was certainly no friend of the Catholic Church and considered the annulment process a sham. Yet she was outraged when they declared her marriage invalid. She claims to have been denied the opportunity to present her case for validity.

The timeline of the case certainly appears to be outrageous; apparently she was not notified of the Rota’s decision until months after it was decided, and all that after years in process.

Here are a couple of articles relating to the matter. I’m sure there are more. Heck, she wrote a book about it.

tldm.org/News11/KennedyAnnulmentInvalid.htm

canonlawmadeeasy.com/2009/10/15/what-if-the-other-spouse-doesnt-want-the-annulment/
I checked out those sites… the first tldm.org begins by quoting … Jesus… not from the bible but from 1978 :confused: In googling I discovered this quote was from Veronica Lueken, a seer who was rejected as authentic by the Church. That ruined that sites credibility for me. Too deceptive.

The second site seemed to me to be saying that Mrs Kennedy was rejecting the whole principle of Catholic annulment… not her particular case. It seems far more a case of the Rota being bullied into a reversal by a famous lady than getting it wrong the first time, in my opinion.

Her testimony reveals beyond doubt her incapacity to give proper Catholic consent to her first marriage. What a strange case. Seems like some poorly educated Rota members presided over it.
 
I don’t really understand this example. As an Episcopalian, wouldn’t the wife be presumed to lack the faith required to give consent to Catholic sacramental marriage?
Not if they were married in the Church and had even the basic pre-cana counseling. A marriage isn’t invalid on the basis of lack of consent just because one spouse is not Catholic.
 
Not if they were married in the Church and had even the basic pre-cana counseling. A marriage isn’t invalid on the basis of lack of consent just because one spouse is not Catholic.
I understand that the marriage isn’t assumed invalid while it is intact, but when a marriage is broken down and divorce has occurred… unless the marriage led to the conversion of the non Catholic party, they are not bound in the same way as a Catholic person.

This was my understanding but I will defer to dans (name removed by moderator)ut on the issue if he is around the thread.
 
Code:
Often the other spouse is the wronged spouse and it would be very unjust to leave him/her out of the process.
Having been around for almost 7 decades, and having done divorce cases as an attorney, I am well aware that there are individuals who perceive themselves as “wronged”. And as I have said repeatedly, it not only takes two to make a marriage; it also takes two to make a fight. I have come across very, very few cases of the “wronged” party who had no responsibility for the directions the marriage took over the years.

Now that I have that off my chest, I agree that both spouses have a right to be heard, whether or not they perceive themselves to be “wronged”.

However, it is the status of the parties as of the day of the marriage that is relevant; who “wronged” who later might be some evidence of what they were like as of the day of the marriage; but otherwise should be irrelevant as to whether or not, on that day of the wedding, there was one or more impediments.
 
I understand that the marriage isn’t assumed invalid while it is intact, but when a marriage is broken down and divorce has occurred… unless the marriage led to the conversion of the non Catholic party, they are not bound in the same way as a Catholic person.

This was my understanding but I will defer to dans (name removed by moderator)ut on the issue if he is around the thread.
The Catholic Church does not require both parties to be Catholic to have a valid sacramental marriage. And the fact a marriage fell apart really has no bearing on whether it is a valid sacramental marriage or not.

A marriage either is a valid marriage or it is not valid. Nothing that happens after the day of the vows are said can change that. A valid marriage can never be made invalid.
 
The Catholic Church does not require both parties to be Catholic to have a valid sacramental marriage. And the fact a marriage fell apart really has no bearing on whether it is a valid sacramental marriage or not.

A marriage either is a valid marriage or it is not valid. Nothing that happens after the day of the vows are said can change that. A valid marriage can never be made invalid.
No, I’m not saying it was valid and then was invalid. It is presumed to be valid while it is intact. That is, it isn’t tested or subjected to a validity test. When it has broken down and divorce has happened, that is when the circumstances on the day of the marriage are evaluated in the light of the breakdown. They aren’t influenced by the breakdown of the marriage but the breakdown sheds light on the situation in a way that couldn’t be known before.
 
No, I’m not saying it was valid and then was invalid. It is presumed to be valid while it is intact. That is, it isn’t tested or subjected to a validity test. When it has broken down and divorce has happened, that is when the circumstances on the day of the marriage are evaluated in the light of the breakdown. They aren’t influenced by the breakdown of the marriage but the breakdown sheds light on the situation in a way that couldn’t be known before.
I am aware of that. I’m a marriage case advocate in my diocese. Yes, a petition to the tribunal may only be submitted after a divorce, but it has nothing to do with the faith or conversion of a non-Catholic party to the marriage.
 
It seems far more a case of the Rota being bullied into a reversal by a famous lady than getting it wrong the first time, in my opinion.

Seems like some poorly educated Rota members presided over it.
If you think that the members of the Rota give a flip about a so-called American “famous lady” or that they are “poorly educated” you do not know a thing about the Rota.

Since the tribunal records are not public, we have no access to facts, only to various sensationalized websites.
 
I understand that the marriage isn’t assumed invalid while it is intact, but when a marriage is broken down and divorce has occurred… unless the marriage led to the conversion of the non Catholic party, they are not bound in the same way as a Catholic person.
This is 100% not true.
 
Having been around for almost 7 decades, and having done divorce cases as an attorney, I am well aware that there are individuals who perceive themselves as “wronged”. And as I have said repeatedly, it not only takes two to make a marriage; it also takes two to make a fight. I have come across very, very few cases of the “wronged” party who had no responsibility for the directions the marriage took over the years.

Now that I have that off my chest, I agree that both spouses have a right to be heard, whether or not they perceive themselves to be “wronged”.

However, it is the status of the parties as of the day of the marriage that is relevant; who “wronged” who later might be some evidence of what they were like as of the day of the marriage; but otherwise should be irrelevant as to whether or not, on that day of the wedding, there was one or more impediments.
The Church uses the term the “innocent” spouse. There are lots of reasons a marriage can break down but that’s not the issue when speaking of an end to conjugal life.
 
I understand that the marriage isn’t assumed invalid while it is intact, but when a marriage is broken down and divorce has occurred… unless the marriage led to the conversion of the non Catholic party, they are not bound in the same way as a Catholic person.

This was my understanding but I will defer to dans (name removed by moderator)ut on the issue if he is around the thread.
A marriage is either valid or not at the time of the exchange of vows. It doesn’t change based on whether one party converts or not. The conversion of the non-Catholic party in a mixed marriage is never a requirement.

I think you might be confused with Sacramental vs. natural marriage rather than the validity of marriage. If one party is not baptized in any Christian denomination, the marriage is a natural one rather than a Sacramental one. If the non-Christian spouse converts to Christianity (not necessarily Catholicism), the marriage becomes Sacramental. But the validity is unchanged and the obligations of the spouses are also unchanged.
 
A marriage is either valid or not at the time of the exchange of vows. It doesn’t change based on whether one party converts or not. The conversion of the non-Catholic party in a mixed marriage is never a requirement.

I think you might be confused with Sacramental vs. natural marriage rather than the validity of marriage. If one party is not baptized in any Christian denomination, the marriage is a natural one rather than a Sacramental one. If the non-Christian spouse converts to Christianity (not necessarily Catholicism), the marriage becomes Sacramental. But the validity is unchanged and the obligations of the spouses are also unchanged.
If a marriage is known to be valid or not at the time of the exchange of vows it would seem highly irresponsible for the Church to proceed with performing invalid ones. Isn’t it the case that all Catholic marriages are presumed to be valid until there is an irretrievable breakdown?

I wonder if Mrs Kennedy was confused with Sacramental vs. natural marriage rather than the validity of marriage. I had never heard of the case but the basic situation seems to be that whatever element of the marriage that rendered it null in the eyes of the Church the first time, must have pertained to Mrs Kennedy in some way since she on her own testimony was able to get the decision overturned. You surely couldn’t argue about your spouses capacity to consent or something involved with their inner state at the time of the marriage. However, it must surely have some impact on the capacity to consent to sacramental meaning of marriage if one is not a Catholic at that time of the vow… something which can only have light shone on it by the irretrievable breakdown of the marriage. It doesn’t go from valid to invalid. It is just recognised by subsequent events that what was presumed to be valid, was invalid.
 
If a marriage is known to be valid or not at the time of the exchange of vows it would seem highly irresponsible for the Church to proceed with performing invalid ones. Isn’t it the case that all Catholic marriages are presumed to be valid until there is an irretrievable breakdown?
Yes, the marriage is presumed to be valid until a tribunal rules otherwise. (unless it’s a lack of form case). But presumed to be valid isn’t the same as actually valid. The tribunal doesn’t look only at what was known at the time of the exchange of vows but what was unknown then but later came to light. What it does not address are conditions that developed after the marriage.

The Church does not proceed with marriages where there is a known impediment to validity. But sometimes people are not truthful with their pastors (or each other) during marriage preparation or there may be something they weren’t aware of or in denial of at the time.
I wonder if Mrs Kennedy was confused with Sacramental vs. natural marriage rather than the validity of marriage. I had never heard of the case but the basic situation seems to be that whatever element of the marriage that rendered it null in the eyes of the Church the first time, must have pertained to Mrs Kennedy in some way since she on her own testimony was able to get the decision overturned. You surely couldn’t argue about your spouses capacity to consent or something involved with their inner state at the time of the marriage. However, it must surely have some impact on the capacity to consent to sacramental meaning of marriage if one is not a Catholic at that time of the vow… something which can only have light shone on it by the irretrievable breakdown of the marriage. It doesn’t go from valid to invalid. It is just recognised by subsequent events that what was presumed to be valid, was invalid.
No, whether the person is Catholic or not has no bearing on whether the person could consent to a valid marriage. We aren’t talking about anything that involves intricate knowledge of Catholic theology. The couple promises to be faithful and open to life and to be committed to each other until death separates them. That’s it.

Yes, it is possible for something to happen that sheds light on the validity of the marriage. But it must always point back to that time of the wedding.

Example: husband is having an affair at the time of the wedding. This isn’t found out by the wife until years later. But it points back to a lack of commitment to fidelity at the time of the marriage. That marriage would probably be found to be invalid. (Not talking about the Kennedys here, just in general) On the other hand, husband is faithful for years and then decides to cheat on his wife. Adultery alone doesn’t **point back **to any defect present at the time of the marriage.

A marriage investigation doesn’t focus on why a marriage broke down. Those facts only matter if they are relevant to what was happening at the time of the marriage. Most of the reasons marriages fail are not related to anything being wrong at the time of the marriage. They are more the result of human failings and giving into temptation after the marriage is already in place.
 
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