Could the pope throw out the Divine Liturgy?

[marymol]

As we come to the closing hours of today - June 27th, Feast of St.Cyril, known for his valiant efforts for the title of Theotokos for our Bl.Mother , it is good to watch the efforts here to establish the nurturing and thus trustworthy aspect of Mother Church .

Yet,some of the concerns of those who bring fears related to the liturgical reforms of the recent past years also seem genuine .

What is most puzzling though is how such changes seemed to have happened not in accordance with the intention of the Council Fathers !

Being not by any means having much grasp of all the underlying issues of those years , what comes to mind is one simple factor .( having already asked for St.John The Baptisy to intercede, wouldn’t mind the head getting chopped off for suggesting this )

It is from that episode when the Israelites loose out when one in the camp was found with a forbidden item !

Was the subtle or overt and widespread rejection / rebellion against the encyclical Humane Vitae the ’ forbidden agent ’ … the 'smoke of satan ’ that entered in and distorted much …similarly, in other Churches too , even those with great Liturgical traditions, such factors and rebellion in other areas too as agents of downfall …

And , Pope John Paul 11 , trying to remedy and reesatblish the importance of the understanding and acceptance of this basic aspect , is that what somehow has led to to even moving the heart of our present Pope , with the Motu Propio …

If so , those who yearn for better Liturgical traditions and asssurances , would it be worthwhile to focus more on such aspects too , instead of wondering why the lethargy or confusion etc …

And who knows , just as The Father gave a rainbow of assurance after The Flood , the heart of The Church may be then moved enough …may be even for another council , to include all Churches , to discuss all these issues …to become a council of unity …
to make more widely available such beautiful liturgies as Gaez , for the fast growing church populace such as of Africa , a people who seemed to have missed out the most in this aspect !

St Cyril and Mother Mary, pray for us !

 

[bobzills]

And who knows , just as The Father gave a rainbow of assurance after The Flood , the heart of The Church may be then moved enough …may be even for another council , to include all Churches , to discuss all these issues …to become a council of unity …

I don;t see how all of the many issues which divide Catholics, Orthodox and Protestant could be resolved to create a unity of Christian Churches?

 

[twf]

I don;t see how all of the many issues which divide Catholics, Orthodox and Protestant could be resolved to create a unity of Christian Churches?

As a former Protestant myself, I hope and pray that all Protestants are brought into full communion with the Body of Christ, but it is improper to speak of Protestant “Churches.” No bishop, no eucharist = no church…period.

 

[bobzills]

As a former Protestant myself, I hope and pray that all Protestants are brought into full communion with the Body of Christ, but it is improper to speak of Protestant “Churches.” No bishop, no eucharist = no church…period.

I don;t see how this unity could possibly be attained. There are just too many differences.

 

[Aramis]

I don;t see how this unity could possibly be attained. There are just too many differences.

Usually, one christian at a time. By living the faith.

 

[mardukm]

I don;t see how this unity could possibly be attained. There are just too many differences.

Surely the Holy Spirit is more powerful than fear, misunderstanding and confusion - which everyone, including myself, is prone to…

 

[marymol]

I don;t see how all of the many issues which divide Catholics, Orthodox and Protestant could be resolved to create a unity of Christian Churches?

Well, we might have a tiny example ( of the reverse type ) right here , like , how posting next to mine might bring in little error bugs (such as in that don;t and talk about logs (on my side ) and dust and all that too !

And ofcourse , thank you for even looking into this as a possibilty …we know it is Bl.Mother , in Fatima , who seriously reminded The Church , in recent times , of our biblical promise and responsibility ; this by mentioning Russia by name , which possibly meant the Sacramental Churches of East and West ; Pope John Paul 11 , who dearly paid for this , has been instrumental , in us being shown how even a partial fulfillement of that promise ( by some of the Orthodox Bishops having been able to join in the Consecration ) has led to truly dramatic changes world over !

We have much to hope for , to be grateful about !

May The Holy Spirit continue to lead us and even surprise us , with the plenitude of His power !

 

[bobzills]

Surely the Holy Spirit is more powerful than fear, misunderstanding and confusion - which everyone, including myself, is prone to…

It is not impossible, as a lot of other things are not impossible such as an agreement between Palestine and Israel. I just don’t see how it could be resolved given the current stands on the issues. For example, you and other Eastern Christians say that the power of the Pope is limited to the extent that he does not have the authority to modify the Divine Liturgy. However. many Latin Catholics disagree and point to various documents. Take a look at how the various religious denominations get along at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. When the Orthodox went out of their way and took the trouble and time to clean up a small section outside the Church and arrange the stones nicely, the Latin Catholics then complained and demanded that everything be put back in the disorder that it was before. So if the Latin Catholics are going to make such unseemly and picky demands of the Orthodox as that, how likely is it that they would come to an agreement on much more weighty issues? Sure, you can dream about it, but dreaming is one thing, and reality is something else.

 

[JReducation]

It is not impossible, as a lot of other things are not impossible such as an agreement between Palestine and Israel. I just don’t see how it could be resolved given the current stands on the issues. For example, you and other Eastern Christians say that the power of the Pope is limited to the extent that he does not have the authority to modify the Divine Liturgy. However. many Latin Catholics disagree and point to various documents. Take a look at how the various religious denominations get along at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. When the Orthodox went out of their way and took the trouble and time to clean up a small section outside the Church and arrange the stones nicely, the Latin Catholics then complained and demanded that everything be put back in the disorder that it was before. So if the Latin Catholics are going to make such unseemly and picky demands of the Orthodox as that, how likely is it that they would come to an agreement on much more weighty issues? Sure, you can dream about it, but dreaming is one thing, and reality is something else.

Bob . . . I have read your posts on this thread and many other threads. Please correct me, if I’m wrong. MY TAKE is that you always find some reason for believing that union among Christians and other people of faith is impossible.

My greatest concern is that often the papacy is presented as the dividing factor. Our faith tells us that the See of Peter is the point of convergence for the physical Church. Along with the See of Peter is the Eucharist. As long as we have the two, then there is all hope for unity.

How the unity will take place is unknown to any of us. That is God’s job. Our job is to pray and work for it. As Catholics our duty is to believe that it will happen. That is what the Church expects of us.

You may not realize that your posts are doing this. But they are often rrepersenting the pope in a very negative way, as an obstacle to unity.

It is true that the Pope is the absolute ruler of the Church and that his authority in matters of faith, morals and discipline is given to him by Christ and Sacred Tradition. But it is also true that he is guided by the Holy Spirit in those matters that pertain to the good of the Church. Even when he makes prudential mistakes, there is no reason to doubt that the Holy Spirit will use them for the good for the Church.

I do not mean to be offensive. But I am unsure if you realize how negative and threatening your posts sound. They sound negative when they speak of the Church and threatening to those who looking at the Church from other points of view.

For example, the answer to the question on Divine Liturgy is the same answer that the Eastern Catholic theologians will give you. The Apostolic See can authorize any change to the form of the Divine Liturgy, just as it authorized changes to the form of the Latin Rite mass. The Apostolice see cannot change the essence of the Divine Liturgy, just as it cannot change the essence of the Latin Rite liturgy.

We must also make sure that others who are looking at this discussion understand that there is a completely different code of law that governs the Eastern Churches and the Divine Liturgy. There are some points that overlap. But for the most part, the laws for the Eastern Churches are different when it comes to the sacraments. What is the same is the theology of the sacraments. Therefore, the Eastern liturgy is very safe. It is not subject to the West.

Like all Catholics, Eastern Catholics are faithful subjects of the Apostolic See and understand the authority of the See of Peter to authorize changes in form while preserving the essence handed down by tradition.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[bobzills]

Therefore, the Eastern liturgy is very safe. It is not subject to the West.

It is my understanding that the Eastern Churches view the filioque as heretical since it was condemned by the “Eighth Ecumenical Council”, a council at which papal legates participated and which Pope John VIII confirmed. And according to the treaty of Brest, the Greek Catholics were supposed to be allowed to say the creed without the filioque. However, under pressure from the Vatican, and against what was agreed to in the treaty of union, it was required that the filioque be inserted in the creed said in the Divine Liturgy.

 

[bobzills]

How the unity will take place is unknown to any of us.

I said something like that already. I don’t see how it would be possible, given how Latin Catholics have raised such a storm of protest over a very minor cleaning up job that was undertaiken with good will by the Orthodox at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.

 

[JReducation]

It is my understanding that the Eastern Churches view the filioque as heretical since it was condemned by the “Eighth Ecumenical Council”, a council at which papal legates participated and which Pope John VIII confirmed. And according to the treaty of Brest, the Greek Catholics were supposed to be allowed to say the creed without the filioque. However, under pressure from the Vatican, and against what was agreed to in the treaty of union, it was required that the filioque be inserted in the creed said in the Divine Liturgy.

We must remember that the Eastern Chruches and the Orthodox Churches are not the same. They are sisters. Many of the Orthodox Churches have a problem with the filioque.

The Eastern Churches are in full communion with the Apostolic See. This includes the filioque.

The introduction of the filioque does not change the essence of the Divine Liturgy. That is a matter of wording in the Creed. The Liturgy is ot affectec by it. It remains the same.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

I said something like that already. I don’t see how it would be possible, given how Latin Catholics have raised such a storm of protest over a very minor cleaning up job that was undertaiken with good will by the Orthodox at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.

We’re not saying the same thing. Your statement implies that it is impossible. My statement is that UNITY WILL HAPPEN. WE DON’T KNOW HOW. WE HAVE TO DO OUR PART AND THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL DO HIS.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[antonivs]

We’re not saying the same thing. Your statement implies that it is impossible. My statement is that UNITY WILL HAPPEN. WE DON’T KNOW HOW. WE HAVE TO DO OUR PART AND THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL DO HIS.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Well said, Brother.

 

[bobzills]

We must remember that the Eastern Chruches and the Orthodox Churches are not the same. They are sisters. Many of the Orthodox Churches have a problem with the filioque.

The Eastern Churches are in full communion with the Apostolic See. This includes the filioque.

The introduction of the filioque does not change the essence of the Divine Liturgy. That is a matter of wording in the Creed. The Liturgy is ot affectec by it. It remains the same.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

That is the opinion of the Latin Catholics. I don;t think that the Orthodox would agree with that since some of them regard it as heretical.

 

[JReducation]

That is the opinion of the Latin Catholics. I don;t think that the Orthodox would agree with that since some of them regard it as heretical.

Let’s not mix Orthodox with Eastern. The Eastern Catholics accept the filioque. Many of the Orthodox do not.

But this is the hurdle that the Orthodox will eventually overcome to achieve unity. I fail to understand, why you, a Catholic, seem to highlight every obstacle toward unity between the Orthodox and the Catholic Churches, rather than highlighting what we have in common and rejoicing in the fact that the Orthodox and the Catholics are in constant communication. The excommunications have been lifted by both sides. The differences, such as the filioque are being discussed by the brightest theologians and Church historians that all the Apostolic Churches have to offer. There is a special committee in the Vatican made up of the brightest Catholic and Orthodox theologians dealing with these questions. What is most impressive about them is that they are not interested in what the common person, you and I, think. They are interested in the pursuit of theological truth.

We must stop thinking about what people are going to like or not like. We must remember that truth is truth even if no one likes it.

The sun does not stop shining because one has skin cancer. One has to deal with it. So it is with truth.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[bobzills]

We’re not saying the same thing. Your statement implies that it is impossible. My statement is that UNITY WILL HAPPEN. WE DON’T KNOW HOW. WE HAVE TO DO OUR PART AND THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL DO HIS.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I specifically said it was not impossible, just like a lot of other things. If you think it is possible, then instead of just dreaming, show me specifically the plan and the way in which this is going to come about. It is a dream, It is not realistic, because the Latin Catholics are making a big deal about when the Orthodox cleaned up a small portion of an area at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. The Latin Catholics made a big stink and required them to put everything back into the disorder and mess that it was before the Orthodox cleaned it up, becasue they siad that they were not consulted on the plans for the cleanup. If the Latin Catholics are so petty and picky about such a minor thing, well, I don’t see how any unity will ever result, given such a mean and petty attitude as they show in this case and other cases at the Chuch of the Holy Sepulchre. For another example, an Orthodox priest asked the Franciscans if they would be able to close the door to the area of the Latin section of the Church as their Orthodox procession walked by as this was announced and agreed to ahead of time. The Latin priests refused and then beat up the Orthodox bloodied their nose and several monks had to be taken to the hospital.

 

[bobzills]

Let’s not mix Orthodox with Eastern. The Eastern Catholics accept the filioque. Many of the Orthodox do not.

But this is the hurdle that the Orthodox will eventually overcome to achieve unity. I fail to understand, why you, a Catholic, seem to highlight every obstacle toward unity between the Orthodox and the Catholic Churches, rather than highlighting what we have in common and rejoicing in the fact that the Orthodox and the Catholics are in constant communication. The excommunications have been lifted by both sides. The differences, such as the filioque are being discussed by the brightest theologians and Church historians that all the Apostolic Churches have to offer. There is a special committee in the Vatican made up of the brightest Catholic and Orthodox theologians dealing with these questions. What is most impressive about them is that they are not interested in what the common person, you and I, think. They are interested in the pursuit of theological truth.

We must stop thinking about what people are going to like or not like. We must remember that truth is truth even if no one likes it.

The sun does not stop shining because one has skin cancer. One has to deal with it. So it is with truth.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

The question is not whether or not the sun is shining. The question is whether or not the Pope has ever required an Eastern Church to change a portion of the Divine Liturgy contrary to an agreement made beforehand that this would not be done.

 

[JReducation]

Bob . . . what happened in Jerusalem was ridiculous. Most people with sense will agree on that. But that is not a reasonable cause to say that the Holy Spirit will not bring about unity.

You ask me for a plan. I don’t have one. It is not for me to have one. It is for the Holy Spirit to have one. It is for me and you to work toward unity.

But now I ask you, how can we have unity with our Orthodox brothers and sisters, if Catholics like you are calling into question the honesty and good will of the pope and the greater Catholic Church?

As our holy Father Francis was told by the crucifix at San Damiano, “Go rebuild my house.” It is difficult to rebuild the house if we do not support the carpenter.

Do you want this reunion or not?

If so, begin by rebuilding your own house. Get behind the reunification, rather than find every obstacle and highlight it as it if was insurmountable.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Hesychios]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Hello Brother JR,

It is my understanding that the Eastern Churches view the filioque as heretical since it was condemned by the “Eighth Ecumenical Council”, a council at which papal legates participated and which Pope John VIII confirmed.
JReducation;5381646:

The Eastern Churches are in full communion with the Apostolic See. This includes the filioque.

I agree, the EC may not be required to recite it, but they are definitely bound by it. There is no escape. I don’t believe that was the original understanding of the Orthodox signatories at Unia Brzeska but that’s what they have now. They are forbidden to deny the filioque even though they are not required to recite it or even teach it.

Strange doings.

JReducation;5381646:

The introduction of the filioque does not change the essence of the Divine Liturgy. That is a matter of wording in the Creed. The Liturgy is not affected by it. It remains the same.

That is the opinion of the Latin Catholics. I don’t think that the Orthodox would agree with that since some of them regard it as heretical.

Being at best questionable, and at worst heretical Orthodox will never accept it the way it is phrased and used today.

It is a sacrilege to introduce the current filioque into a Creed recited within the Divine Liturgy. It’s like serving a spoiled dish with dinner for an Honored Guest.

Let’s not mix Orthodox with Eastern. The Eastern Catholics accept the filioque. Many of the Orthodox do not.

But this is the hurdle that the Orthodox will eventually overcome to achieve unity.

This is the obstacle the Papacy will eventually overcome, by admitting that it was inadvisable to include a pious opinion in the Creed as if it were dogma, then correcting that mistake.

As far as the EC accepting the filioque, I am sure there are many who do and others who just don’t care, but there are most certainly a number of EC who accept it under protest and with sorrow. Priests included, I have met some.

I fail to understand, why you, a Catholic, seem to highlight every obstacle toward unity between the Orthodox and the Catholic Churches, rather than highlighting what we have in common and rejoicing in the fact that the Orthodox and the Catholics are in constant communication.

A good reason may be that he cares very deeply.

He is obviously very bright.

The person who loves you will be the one to tell you about the spinach stuck in your teeth, or the fly that is open. It’s the same thing with the church, some people will speak the hard truth…

http://www.cambridgeprints.com/illustrators/hughes12.jpg
…other’s just go along.