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bobzills
Guest
Then why is it discussed in the Catholic Encyclopedia in an article which is published with the ecclesiastical approval of John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York?
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Dee_Dee_King
Guest
great question. i suppose he could but for very obvious reasons he will not. in the east, the liturgy is so associated with the faith that to throw out the liturgy would be akin to throwing out the faith. it’s not the liturgy that came to be, but the liturgy of the eastern church fathers.
paul the vi in some ways was a tragic figure. he made a mistake in letting a so called liturgical experts fabricate a new liturgy. it didn’t work. i believe he wanted the new mass to bring the protestants back to the fold.
the fact that st. pius v protected liturgies that were older than 200 years is reason enough to suspect that the near abrogation of the traditional roman rite was a serious blunder.
paul the vi in some ways was a tragic figure. he made a mistake in letting a so called liturgical experts fabricate a new liturgy. it didn’t work. i believe he wanted the new mass to bring the protestants back to the fold.
the fact that st. pius v protected liturgies that were older than 200 years is reason enough to suspect that the near abrogation of the traditional roman rite was a serious blunder.
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marymol
Guest
’ There are somethings in them that are hard to understand that the ignorant and the unstable distort ’ - The Holy Spirit , warning through St.Peter about the very writings of even Apostles !
And it should not be surprising , since the serpent also used such tactics , in its temptations against the Word Himself …
That primordial fear , brought on by the serpent, against The Father and all that stands for the Fatherly Providence …does it not still play out well …
To compound such fears , we live in a culture that has let the flood gates of fear be opened and the full war of the dragon against the children has been on …the statistics of 40+ million unborn babies in this country alone … is it any surprise that the phrase about something deeply precious being ’ thrown out ’ can play into this collective fear …
And the enemy using such fear , to alienate and bring distrust against the very Church that clearly proclaims and shows and teaches againts its very tactics , esp. in this realm …
Could it even be using the same undue fears in the form of complaints against the very same courageous Fathers who focused on winning this struggle and was blessed to have accepted the wisdom from the Holy Spirit , in the form of preventive guidance (in Humanae Vitae ) against slippery slope of destruction …
Many in The Church have also looked to the Bl.Mother’s appearnce in Lourdes , to affirm The Church’s teachings on the Dogma on Immaculate Conception as also being related to the acceptance of papal infallibilty… …
And it is irony too that the changes in the format of worship are the very weapons now used to foster fear …to children of a Church that celebrated Liturgy in the catacombs and stood up against the pagan powers with courage …
May God grant us the wisdom and courage to trust in Him …till that Day when , in His mercy , we can be in the ongoing Banquet and Glorious Worship of heaven …for all eternity …
Peace !
And it should not be surprising , since the serpent also used such tactics , in its temptations against the Word Himself …
That primordial fear , brought on by the serpent, against The Father and all that stands for the Fatherly Providence …does it not still play out well …
To compound such fears , we live in a culture that has let the flood gates of fear be opened and the full war of the dragon against the children has been on …the statistics of 40+ million unborn babies in this country alone … is it any surprise that the phrase about something deeply precious being ’ thrown out ’ can play into this collective fear …
And the enemy using such fear , to alienate and bring distrust against the very Church that clearly proclaims and shows and teaches againts its very tactics , esp. in this realm …
Could it even be using the same undue fears in the form of complaints against the very same courageous Fathers who focused on winning this struggle and was blessed to have accepted the wisdom from the Holy Spirit , in the form of preventive guidance (in Humanae Vitae ) against slippery slope of destruction …
Many in The Church have also looked to the Bl.Mother’s appearnce in Lourdes , to affirm The Church’s teachings on the Dogma on Immaculate Conception as also being related to the acceptance of papal infallibilty… …
Code:
again, the Providential connection of when this gift had to be used in the enemy's ploys and war againt life is well evident, esp. to those who live these days ..Yet , one has to be amazed with gratitude , at a Pope who stood upto powers who could have led him into enemy paths ...except.. ..the Holy Spirit has promised otherwise ...May God grant us the wisdom and courage to trust in Him …till that Day when , in His mercy , we can be in the ongoing Banquet and Glorious Worship of heaven …for all eternity …
Peace !
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mardukm
Guest
Once again, a very inspiring perspective, sister Marymol! It really spoke to my heart when you noted how we Christians use to celebrate the Liturgy in catacombs.
Abundant blessings,
Marduk
P.S. Are you Syro-Malankar or Syro-Malabar (sorry for the digression)?
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bpbasilphx
Guest
Then why is it discussed in the Catholic Encyclopedia in an article which is published with the ecclesiastical approval of John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York?
You still don’t get the point of what Nihil obstat and Imprimatur mean, do you?
You still don’t get the point of what Nihil obstat and Imprimatur mean, do you?
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Hesychios
Guest
Thank you for your contribution but I already knew your viewpoint on this.
I was wondering what our good friend the deacon believes about this point.
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Hesychios
Guest
The point is, various individuals are objecting to the question altogether as somehow absurd. When in fact it is a perfectly reasonable question as shown by the example.
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Hesychios
Guest
Hello brother Marduk,
Or do you believe that Catholics unhappy with a change in their liturgy would be justified in breaking with the Pope?
Is it not the case that after the schism, when Popes were under the impression that Orthodox Christians were not in “the church” that the Byzantine rite almost entirely disappeared in those areas under the Pope? The Czech Republic today, as well as southern Poland were first evangelized by Cyril and Methodios into the “Methodian” or Byzantine-Slavonic rite. Later this was suppressed.
Likewise in southern Italy and Sicily. The Roman Catholic diocesan system in southern Italy also derives from the Byzantine Rite. Eventually they were converted to the Latin Rite by replacing the bishops and then systematically replacing the parish pastors. The reason there is an Italo-Albanian church today is the large number of Orthodox refugee followers of Skanderbeg who fled there in the fifteenth century.
Would you call these changes, the suppression of the Byzantine rite, a despoiling?
Blessings,
I could be wrong, but the way it looks, yes.
Obedience to authority presupposes that there will be no such thing. The burden for breaking unity would presumably be upon those you will not obey, wouldn’t you agree?
Or do you believe that Catholics unhappy with a change in their liturgy would be justified in breaking with the Pope?
You load the question. How is it that changing a liturgical form will be automatically a despoiling?
I have tried.
Is it not the case that after the schism, when Popes were under the impression that Orthodox Christians were not in “the church” that the Byzantine rite almost entirely disappeared in those areas under the Pope? The Czech Republic today, as well as southern Poland were first evangelized by Cyril and Methodios into the “Methodian” or Byzantine-Slavonic rite. Later this was suppressed.
Likewise in southern Italy and Sicily. The Roman Catholic diocesan system in southern Italy also derives from the Byzantine Rite. Eventually they were converted to the Latin Rite by replacing the bishops and then systematically replacing the parish pastors. The reason there is an Italo-Albanian church today is the large number of Orthodox refugee followers of Skanderbeg who fled there in the fifteenth century.
Would you call these changes, the suppression of the Byzantine rite, a despoiling?
Blessings,
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bobzills
Guest
Perhaps it is a despoiling. But I fear that some Orthodox might see it as an attempt by the Vatican to do away with their Sacred Traditions.
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bobzills
Guest
With reference to the authority of the Catholic Encyclopedia we read that:It’s absurd to think that an imprimatur is a sign of infallibility. You’re a Latin Catholic, for crying out loud! Don’t you know the difference?
The Catholic Encyclopedia, as its name implies, proposes to give its readers full and authoritative information on the entire cycle of Catholic interests, action and doctrine.
Designed to present its readers with the full body of Catholic teaching, the Encyclopedia contains not only precise statements of what the Church has defined, but also an impartial record of different views of acknowledged authority on all disputed questions. In all things the object of the Encyclopedia is to give the whole truth without prejudice, national, political or factional. In the determination of the truth the most recent and acknowledged scientific methods are employed, and the results of the latest research in theology, philosophy, history, apologetics, archæology, and other sciences are given careful consideration.
The Encyclopedia bears the imprimatur of the Most Reverend Archbishop under whose jurisdiction it is published. In constituting the Editors the ecclesiastical censors, he has given them a singular proof of his confidence and of his desire to facilitate the publication of the work which he has promoted most effectively by his influence and kindly co-operation.
And more
newadvent.org/cathen/
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mardukm
Guest
Dear brother Hesychios,
As several have already stated, the question is irrelevant for the Eastern and Oriental Catholics on several levels.
Blessings,
Marduk
And as already pointed out, that material is from the 17th century. You do realize that the imprimatur and nihil obstat at best is doctrinally relevant only in the local jurisdiction of the authority that gave it, right?. So what if a few Latin Catholics believe in that 17th century opinion? It certainly can’t be taken as the teaching of the Latin Catholic Church as a whole, much, much less the Catholic Church as a whole.
As several have already stated, the question is irrelevant for the Eastern and Oriental Catholics on several levels.
Blessings,
Marduk
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mardukm
Guest
Dear brother Hesychios,
Anyway, what exactly are you referring to (I hope it has relevance for the OP )?
Blessings
Yes, you are wrong.
Anyway, what exactly are you referring to (I hope it has relevance for the OP )?Of course not. That is THEIR Patriarch. I feel you are confusing the issue. I’m talking about preserving the rights of our Patriarchs and the unity between the Patriarchs that the Pope is bound by divine obligation to preserve, while you’re talking about the internal affairs of another sui juris Church. Your latter scenario has no relevance to me as an Oriental (though it will certainly have relevance for a Latin).
If the Liturgy is not yours, then you have despoiled someone’s rights.
No, because during those days the Orthodox were considered heretics by Catholics. Heretics don’t have any ecclesiastical rights to despoil. It’s the same principle that some Orthodox apply today towards Catholics because they regard Catholics as heretics (though not ALL Orthodox believe that way).
Blessings
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Hesychios
Guest
Hi Marduk,
I don’t care about the Nihil Obstat, 17th century opinions or whether you think it is irrelevant. I just want to see the question addressed.
“** Re: Could the pope throw out the Divine Liturgy? **”
Of course, you were upstanding in that you have made your position on the question clear, you stated that you don’t believe a Pope has that power, if I read you correctly. I respect your willingness to address the question.
I was hoping some others would address this question.
*
Michael*
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malphono
Guest
And of course I, at least, have. Not that it much matters, but just for the record, I reference my comments earlier in this [post=5360815]thread[/post] and in the other [post=5370154]forum[/post]. No sense in retyping it all. Fingers get tired and all that …
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Aramis
Guest
The papacy abolishing any eastern rite liturgy would run against the prescriptions of the Second Vatican council. Which, for better or worse, said council is part of the deposit of faith.
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Chaldean_Rite
Guest
this is just a stupid thread.
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malphono
Guest
I don’t agree: it looks to a question of jurisdiction, and while it may be hypothetical at the moment, it may not always be so. Just MHO and my :twocents:
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Chaldean_Rite
Guest
**882 **The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter’s successor, “is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful.” “For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can *always *exercise unhindered.”
I think that’s sufficient for the jurisdiction question.
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Harpazo
Guest
I said it in a post earlier, I have worshiped in a Maronite Church for about 18 months and talked with the priest on occasion about Maronite history, Eastern Christianity, etc. He and I are still friends. About a year ago, he taught Maronite history classes at the parish and explained how the Latins basically raped the Maronite liturgy, forcing them to burn their liturgical books and embrace Latin Christianity because that was the only way to be Catholic. I think their testimony and the testimony of the Chaldeans too (and other Eastern Catholics) is witness enough of the Pope and the See of Rome being able to fool with the Divine Liturgy. Let’s not kid ourselves here. It HAS been done and to deny it is a great travesty.
In Christ,
Andrew
In Christ,
Andrew
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Harpazo
Guest
Your argument is with Mardukm. He seems to think otherwise, or at least that is the vibe I am getting.
In Christ,
Andrew
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