Could the pope throw out the Divine Liturgy?

[Diak]

At the present time the Church is calling for delatinization. But that means that in the past there was latinization. Why was there latinization in the past and if there was latinization in the past, how do we know that there will not be latinization sometime later on in the future?

There is a complex history that includes political as well as spiritual identities that will be locally variable for each Eastern Catholic church. In the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church before the Soviet era, a Greek Catholic in Poland or the Austro-Hungarian empire was simply a second class citizen. Pressures from overzealous Latin priests and bishops who felt (as is documented by some) that the Greek-Slavonic rite was only a temporary stopping point to the Latin Church, in addition to the general social oppression of a predominantly Latin upper class and nobility in the days of serfdom made latinizations an almost predictable thing - whether they originated externally or internally.

Couple that with constant polemic onslaughts from the Tsarist side of the border to become part of the Muscovite Church and negate the Union. Latinziations became not only a way to potentially improve one’s social standing on one side but also a way to distance themselves from the ever-present threat from Muscovy on the other side. No Greek Catholic could hold nobility in either Poland or the Austro-Hungarian Empire unless they were Latin, or in a few very limited cases (like Count Ostrozhky who had great political influence) Orthodox.

Metropolitan Sheptytsky’s family is a good example. His ancestors include hierarchal luminaries like Metropolitan Atanasy Sheptytsky and clergy in his family can be traced back to the Union of Brest. His great-grandfather renounced his Greek Catholic identity when forced to by the Polish nobility in order to keep his own status as nobility and retain his ancestoral properties. His own father initially threatened to disown him when Metropolitan Andrey told his father he wanted to join a Ukrainian Greek Catholic monastery and return to his ancestral particular Church. It is not then by chance that he became the first great hero of the beginning of delatinization of the UGCC, as it was very close to him personally.

It’s much deeper than just saying the Rosary or using Sacred Heart devotions. Those are only the outward sign of a sometimes very painful and circuitous past that involve a complicated combination of spiritual, cultural, and ecclesiastical histories. Delatinization at least for the UGCC takes on an even greater importance and recovery of identity dating back to the Union and our original concept and declaration of communion with Rome that is theological, spiritual, liturgical, and even cultural. The Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is part of the Church of Kyiv as our *Catechetical Directory * reminds us, and not some neopolonized, neolatinized ghetto.

Since Rome herself has used the term “latinzation” on several occasions, probably most recently in the Instruction, the term is very reasonable and appropriate to use, and is most certainly not “steeped in exaggeration”.

 

[Seamus_L]

Malphono
I'd have to strongly disagree in the case of the Fatima devotions. In the Diaspora, they became very popular with Ukrainians and Ruthenians during the Cold War for the same reasons they did with Poles, Lithuanians, Slovaks, etc of the Latin Rite. The message was one they very strongly related to. Our Lady of Fatima was a bastion of hope in a world that seemed to be falling to the forces of Communism.

 

[Diak]

I would strongly disagree as we have always had Molebens and Akafists to wonderworking icons of the Mother of God associated with miracles and have been succour against overting oppressors and disasters long before the 20th century (we have one coming this Saturday, the Mother of God of Hoshiv whose miracles were declared as authentic by Metropolitan Atanasy Sheptytsky). During the Soviet oppression there were frequent underground services to the Mother of God often to one of her wonder-working icons, and the “Fatima devotions” did not take on except in areas of the diaspora where again, our churches and people are in a great minority compared to the Latins.

As a private devotion, of course one can do what one desires (of course taking spiritual direction and the direction of our hierarchs into account). But as a public devotion, that is another matter entirely left to the Synod (and Rome when she feels compelled to remind us of the necessity of returning to our authentic liturgical/spiritual tradition).

Ultimately what is or isn’t a latinization is not for any Latin to decide, nor as to the propriety of the elimination of latinizations, but for the Synod of the particular Church in question in line with the more general directives from Rome. These directives in the last 40 years have universally been towards delatinization and a return to a more faithful observance of the tradition.

 

[Seamus_L]

It was the Diaspora I was referring to Father Deacon ! And the Fatima devotions were popular and they weren’t forced on anyone. Some devotions originating in the West simply spread to the faithful and became part of there heritage. I believe Blessed Theodore Romzha was devoted to the Sacred Heart.
Ultimately my opinion that de-Latinization is not a good thing, will have no bearing on what actually happens, but I think in future you will see a very steady stream of parishoners out of the Byzantine churches, and into the Orthodox Churches as they realise that being fully Orthodox requires severing ties with Rome.

 

[Aramis]

Thank-you, Father Deacon!

One other thing, tho’… Vatican II, with it’s status as a general council, if not an ecumenical council, as Romans understand that term, put the internal sovereignty of the ECC’s into the deposit of faith.

For latins, the council may seem purely pastoral, but it addressed a huge and major issue in the various eastern churches, both in union and not: What exactly does it mean to be Catholic?

For many, pre-VII, the decisions in several plenary councils had been that the “Unia” were nothing but a step in bringing all Christians into the Roman Church and Latin praxis… to borrow the Byzantine term, Oikonomia… a concession for the good of souls that should eventually be done away with. Further, several councils prohibited voluntary transfer to the Eastern Catholic Churches… Pope John XXIII altered that; Vatican II made it doctrinal that a person has a right to worship in the Rite in which they are enrolled.

Vatican II’s effect was to substantiate John XXIII and Paul VI’s changes in praxis, and make them part of the way the Romans saw the East.

 

[Diak]

It was the Diaspora I was referring to Father Deacon ! And the Fatima devotions were popular and they weren’t forced on anyone. Some devotions originating in the West simply spread to the faithful and became part of there heritage. I believe Blessed Theodore Romzha was devoted to the Sacred Heart.

I didn’t miss that perhaps - you may have missed the rest of my reply which partially attributed its use in the diaspora (and not in the homelands) to the fact that once again it was a situation with Greek Catholics in a very small minority surrounded by those who not only used that devotion but questioned why we were not using the same devotion (I myself have been not only questioned but criticized by Latin laity during the Soviet times by replying that I did not use that devotion publicly and would not in a parish).

I would even go farther and say its use may have been further accentuated by the number of biritual clergy who also served in diasporal parishes during that time.

I also do not consider Latin devotions that began in the mid-18th century as “part of my heritage” but rather an unfortunate and unintended consequence of latinized usage and departure from the authentic received tradition which could not be enforced because of the prevailing political and social millieu.

I guarantee that any celebration of the Moleben to the Mother of God in front of one of our traditional wonderworking icons (the Moleben being a parochial setting of the ancient Paraklisis) with the wonderful samopodobny singing of “Presvyataya Bohoroditse, spasi nas!” sung in its unique, robust and beatiful harmony will be much more preferred and “beloved” in our Ukrainian Catholic parishes than any of the devotions to which you have referred (Fatima, Sacred Heart, etc.).

 

[Diak]

but I think in future you will see a very steady stream of parishoners out of the Byzantine churches, and into the Orthodox Churches as they realise that being fully Orthodox requires severing ties with Rome.

Actually that “stream” greatly increased and peaked in past times when the Latin bishops tried to interfere like enforcing clerical celibacy, and not when we are being faithful to our own traditions.

The creation of three Orthodox hierarchies in the US - the OCA, the American Carpatho-Russian Diocese, and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church is largely due to large scale defections from the Greek Catholics to the Orthodox Church. And all of those were formed in the height of the glories of “latinization”. So if that is where latinizations really lead…that is much more borne out in history than your contention. I don’t see anything of that ilk in the foreseeable future with the direction of Rome and our Synod, thank God.

Thriving parishes like St. Elias in Canada or Sts. Volodymyr and Olha in Chicago speak for themselves in growth since starting when fidelity to the authentic received tradition is stressed and encouraged. That’s what I see as the future.

A greater concern to me is not a trickle to the Orthodox, but the continued attrition to the Latins when someone can turn around and say “that’s not that different from what we do, and they have a school”.

 

[marymol]

Thank you for the above posts that have helped to see how diffrent the experiences and perspectives can be of the diffrent Churches and how persons who are not all that much familiar with such inner histories and particular experiences ( let alone the higher Liturgical matters ) can easily err and for many , how it is best to leave such to those who have been entrusted to delve into these matters under proper authority and prayerful discernment !

Again, what comes to mind is that Holy Spirit arranged scene in St.Luke , when our Lord chose to stay in the Temple, to listen to and ask questions of the authorities there …to the amazment of all …

Yet, when Bl.Mother and St.Joseph came to ask Him, " why have You done this to us …" , that is all it took Him to accept that as The Father’s will and Voice , from the rightful God ordained authority in His life …and He went with them …setting the example of the superior virtue of trusting obediance …

How so humbling, in contrast to those with hardly any such claims to wisdom or knowledge who choose to debate …question …

Thank You Lord for the above - for showing the Way , having foreseen these scenarios where persons very little ( atleast in knowldege of much of these things ) are tempted to doubt even after having been adviced by Mothers otherwise …

Pardon and Mercy !

 

[OhMalley]

You make a good point. And stuff like that has happened- the Roman Rite was completely changed in the 60’s. We lost the Mass that had organically developed from the time of the catacombs in a span of 5 years…

That’s not true.

The Pauline Mass is closer to the Mass of the early church.

The Tridentine Mass that we know today doesn’t go back to the first millenium let alone the first century of the Church

As far as the “organic argument”, that came in about the time people beagn to be laughed at for claiming the Ordinary Form of the Mass was “invalid.”

 

[jimmy]

That’s not true.

The Pauline Mass is closer to the Mass of the early church.

The Tridentine Mass that we know today doesn’t go back to the first millenium let alone the first century of the Church

As far as the “organic argument”, that came in about the time people beagn to be laughed at for claiming the Ordinary Form of the Mass was “invalid.”

P. Benedict himself uses the ‘organic’ argument in his own books. It is recognized by all good theologians that the liturgy must develop organically.

 

[bobzills]

P. Benedict himself uses the ‘organic’ argument in his own books. It is recognized by all good theologians that the liturgy must develop organically.

Would this be organically as determined by the Pope of Rome, or organically as determined by the Patriarch of Constantinople or Moscow, etc.?

 

[Hesychios]

Would this be organically as determined by the Pope of Rome, or organically as determined by the Patriarch of Constantinople or Moscow, etc.?

Organically means it happens locally as an adaption to circumstances without direction from above. A bit of tweaking here and there.

It sounds like an invitation to chaos but it’s really not.