Could the Universe be Uncaused?

  • Thread starter Thread starter PMVCatholic
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
P

PMVCatholic

Guest
I wanted to make a separate thread on this issue (my original thread was “Is it Rational to Believe God Exists?”).

Carl Sagan once wrote:

“In many cultures it is customary to answer that God created the universe out of nothing. But this is mere temporizing. If we wish courageously to pursue the question, we must, of course ask next where God comes from. And if we decide this to be unanswerable, why not save a step and decide that the origin of the universe is an unanswerable question? Or, if we say that God has always existed, why not save a step and conclude that the universe has always existed?” --Cosmos p.257

It seems logical to say that everything that exists has a cause. However, some believe that this statement only applies to events within the universe, not the universe itself. If the universe could be uncaused, would this nullify the existence of God? All answers would be greatly appreciated.

-Phil
 
PMVCatholic said:
It seems logical to say that everything that exists has a cause. However, some believe that this statement only applies to events within the universe, not the universe itself. If the universe could be uncaused, would this nullify the existence of God? All answers would be greatly appreciated.

-Phil
Click to expand...
Carl Sagan in Cosmos, 1980 A.D.

“Ten or twenty billion years ago, something happened – the Big Bang, the event that began our universe…. In that titanic cosmic explosion, the universe began an expansion which has never ceased…. As space stretched, the matter and energy in the universe expanded with it and rapidly cooled. The radiation of the cosmic fireball, which, then as now, filled the universe, moved through the spectrum – from gamma rays to X-rays to ultraviolet light; through the rainbow colors of the visible spectrum; into the infrared and radio regions. The remnants of that fireball, the cosmic background radiation, emanating from all parts of the sky can be detected by radio telescopes today. In the early universe, space was brilliantly illuminated.”

Genesis, 1200 B.C. : “In the beginning God said: ‘Let there be light.’”

As astronomer Robert Jastrow pointed out in God and the Astronomers.

“For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.”
 
It seems to me that the universe must have been caused.

The universe itself is not God, so it’s subject to creation like rocks and humans and angels.

The universe (to my knowledge) is also bound by time, so it would seem that it should have a beginning (as things bound by time do).

I think that these two things point to the conclusion that the universe is caused.

What do you think?
 
PMVCatholic said:
I wanted to make a separate thread on this issue (my original thread was “Is it Rational to Believe God Exists?”).

Carl Sagan once wrote:

“In many cultures it is customary to answer that God created the universe out of nothing. But this is mere temporizing. If we wish courageously to pursue the question, we must, of course ask next where God comes from. And if we decide this to be unanswerable, why not save a step and decide that the origin of the universe is an unanswerable question? Or, if we say that God has always existed, why not save a step and conclude that the universe has always existed?” --Cosmos p.257

It seems logical to say that everything that exists has a cause. However, some believe that this statement only applies to events within the universe, not the universe itself. If the universe could be uncaused, would this nullify the existence of God? All answers would be greatly appreciated.

-Phil
Click to expand...
Of course you know that the solemn teaching of the Catholic Church is that God created the universe, in time, out of nothing. ( CCC, Part 1 ). Catholics who wish to live in union with the Church and not in heresy must believe this. So who cares what Sagan or anyone else says. But if you want an answer to Sagan it is that the universe exists because God exists. God is pure, spirit with no potency, so he simply always existed and is the cause of everything else that exists. See the Five Ways of Thomas Aquinas: newadvent.org/summa/1002.htm#article3

Also, if Sagan were correct then why don’t we see things " popping " into existence every where?

Linus2nd
 
CharlesPM said:
It seems to me that the universe must have been caused.

The universe itself is not God, so it’s subject to creation like rocks and humans and angels.

The universe (to my knowledge) is also bound by time, so it would seem that it should have a beginning (as things bound by time do).

I think that these two things point to the conclusion that the universe is caused.

What do you think?
Click to expand...
I think that is a fair assessment. However, some physicists such as Stephen Hawking disagree with that logic.

“Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing.”
-Stephen Hawking
 
Based on what we know it is possible, but I still hold that it is unlikely. At this point I’m sticking with the first cause as being a god-force. I haven’t read all of Hawking’s recent works, but I have yet to see any proof of an accidental formation of the universe.
 
PMVCatholic said:
I think that is a fair assessment. However, some physicists such as Stephen Hawking disagree with that logic.

“Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing.”
-Stephen Hawking
Click to expand...
Isn’t the law of gravity not nothing, but something? And where did this law come from?
 
PMVCatholic said:
If the universe could be uncaused, would this nullify the existence of God?
Click to expand...
As others said, it’s not reasonable to think the universe is uncaused. But let’s hypothetically suppose that is reasonable. It would just mean that people are substituting the word “Universe” for “God.” It actually confirms the logical necessity of something “uncaused” to create creation.
 
djchez said:
Isn’t the law of gravity not nothing, but something? And where did this law come from?
Click to expand...
Interestingly, I have not read any work of a physicist yet that claimed to know where the laws of physics come from. However, I suppose it doesn’t mean that an answer couldn’t be found in the future. Having said that, the very fact that nature behaves under strict laws, such as gravity, is interesting in it’s own right.

-Phil
 
MarcoPolo said:
As others said, it’s not reasonable to think the universe is uncaused. But let’s hypothetically suppose that is reasonable. It would just mean that people are substituting the word “Universe” for “God.” It actually confirms the logical necessity of something “uncaused” to create creation.
Click to expand...
That is a good point. If the Universe where eternal in the past and self-existing, wouldn’t that make it on the same level as God? Thank you for bringing this up.

-Phil
 
PMVCatholic said:
Interestingly, I have not read any work of a physicist yet that claimed to know where the laws of physics come from. However, I suppose it doesn’t mean that an answer couldn’t be found in the future. Having said that, the very fact that nature behaves under strict laws, such as gravity, is interesting in it’s own right.

-Phil
Click to expand...
A physicist can not tell you where the laws of physics come from because it is not the realm of physics, nor is it of science for that matter. You need to look in another place.
 
The answer has to do with the fact that an Uncaused Cause would have to be absolutely simple—which the universe clearly is not—but personally I do not know the theology behind this, I hope someone else could explain.
 
MarcoPolo said:
As others said, it’s not reasonable to think the universe is uncaused. But let’s hypothetically suppose that is reasonable. It would just mean that people are substituting the word “Universe” for “God.”
Click to expand...
I don’t think that necessarily follows because God is all loving and the universe is not.
 
laircy said:
The answer has to do with the fact that an Uncaused Cause would have to be absolutely simple—which the universe clearly is not—but personally I do not know the theology behind this, I hope someone else could explain.
Click to expand...
Some might say that the Trinity is not absolutely simple, especially the Crucifixion of the Second Person of the Trinity, while the Father remained in heaven.
 
djchez said:
That’s how we know them, not how they are.
Click to expand...
Physical laws may not be laws, but more appropriately described as models or our best guess as to what is happening at the present time. Newton’s laws have been shown to be not absolute laws. As a whole, over a much vaster extent of time, the universe may be somewhat chaotic with the present physical laws not useful to describe the wider situation as a whole.
 
Tomdstone said:
As a whole, over a much vaster extent of time, the universe may be somewhat chaotic with the present physical laws not useful to describe the wider situation as a whole.
Click to expand...
It may be that the laws of the universe elsewhere in the universe vary from the laws we are familiar with. But it’s highly doubtful that this is a reason to call all the laws taken collectively as “somewhat chaotic.” There is at least one law that is operating everywhere in the universe and never stops operating: the law of the expanding universe, otherwise called the Big Bang. Some mysterious Force has caused the expansion of the universe from a tiny sigularity to its present size and nature, along the way allowing the creation of stars and their planets and their planets’ inhabitants, wherever they may exist. The universe is till expanding, and the Force is mysteriously expanding the universe at a faster and faster rate. Einstein was content to call this Force … God. Not the Christian God certainly, but God nonetheless. 😉
 
From my very small (compared to the All) place, being that I don’t have much matter, or energy in me and am around for a very short time, it seems as if the Universe must have a cause, because most things I know of DO have a cause.

But seeing as how limited I am, I cannot know or say with any certainty that the Universe was caused by something beyond. It is entirely possible that my line of thinking and reasoning has no concept at all as to the reality of the Universe.

To my limited and finite understanding it must have a cause, but in reality…I cannot begin to know.

My reason, like Newton’s laws of physics, no longer apply when we move to so grand a scale.
 
PMVCatholic said:
I wanted to make a separate thread on this issue (my original thread was “Is it Rational to Believe God Exists?”).

Carl Sagan once wrote:

“In many cultures it is customary to answer that God created the universe out of nothing. But this is mere temporizing. If we wish courageously to pursue the question, we must, of course ask next where God comes from. And if we decide this to be unanswerable, why not save a step and decide that the origin of the universe is an unanswerable question? Or, if we say that God has always existed, why not save a step and conclude that the universe has always existed?” --Cosmos p.257

It seems logical to say that everything that exists has a cause. However, some believe that this statement only applies to events within the universe, not the universe itself. If the universe could be uncaused, would this nullify the existence of God? All answers would be greatly appreciated.

-Phil
Click to expand...
The reason why you can’t say the universe has always existed is because the universe is not God. The universe is a created thing, it is not a person. God is a person and the definition of being God is that there is nothing and no one before or after God. The definition of being God is that He was not created or made and always existed. You can’t say that about the universe because the universe is not God or a god.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top