Could the Universe have Created Itself?

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Phil_Marinus said:
Doubt that, because then we will ( hopefully ) be in the spiritual realm, not the human mortal realm, time will tell I guess
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Don’t forget that at the general resurrection we will receive our bodies back in a glorified form which is not exactly the same as spiritual. For example, Christ talked and ate with his disciples after his death but before he returned to the Father, yet could pass through walls, which may or may not be an ability of a glorified body (I guess he could have done the same before he died). What our role will be in the next life is unclear, but we do know that we will have our bodies back.

The good nuns always taught us that spirits, like the angels, are space specific, that is, they are not everywhere simply because they are spirits. Only God is everywhere, they taught us. But, they said, an angel can think where he wants to be and he is there. It sounds plausible to me. It also agrees with the idea of a guardian angel specific to a single person, and demons who “wander about seeking the ruin of souls” and who also possess individual human beings. I think the nuns had their theology right.
 
Phil_Marinus said:
Mmmmmmm… Well me thinks there is a difference between thinking something , and knowing something as actual fact… I guess one day we will know for sure…
How do you know for sure that the universe is the realm of the spiritual realm ?
Seen one buzzing by your house ?
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We do know that God created angels as part of his overall creation of the universe. We do know that angels play a role in the physical realm serving as guardian angels to men, and messengers from God to men (“men” generically speaking, of course). We do know that our own spirits definitely play a part in the physical world. It would seem that the only reason we cannot instantly go where we wish to be is that our spirits are attached to our bodies until death, Then, too, there is the case of Padre Pio, who reportedly could be in two places at the same time while living in his monastery in Italy. Nice trick if you can do it. Also, he frequently dispatched his angel to perform some deed for him, but that of course could be imaginary is not mandatory to believe.
 
“I like to believe that the moon is still there even if we don’t look at it.”

Albert Einstein.

Einstein was commenting on his distrust of an idea from Werner Heisenberg, who believed that reality is what can be observed. This leads to the uncomfortable conclusion that if there are different observations, there must be different realties dependent on the observer. Thus Heisenberg was saying that the moon does not “exist” until you see it.

Einstein felt that there was a subatomic reality independent of observation. He spent his remaining years trying unsuccessfully, to develop a “unified theory” resolving the paradoxes of quantum theory with his ideas about relativity. Thus, while he believed the moon is there even though we can not see it, he was not able to prove it. This conflict in ideas remains unresolved.

But it is interesting to contemplate the idea that the moon might not be there if you can not see it.

Basically matter is in a wave form when not observed and exists as energy - when observed it has substance and becomes particles. So is anything really there unless we observe it?
 
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JamesCaruso:
It would seem that the only reason we cannot instantly go where we wish to be is that our spirits are attached to our bodies until death,
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Our spirits are immaterial, so the property of location in the spatial plane does not apply to them. 🙂
 
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JamesCaruso:
This leads to the uncomfortable conclusion that if there are different observations, there must be different realities dependent on the observer.
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While this is hardly relevant to the thread, I must say I agree with Heisenberg that physical things only exist insofar as they are perceived. However, I don’t think it follows that there are 6 billion different universes. I think the world is like an algorithm that calculates what perception of it we will have. Our choices can affect the algorithm, much as if it were an MMORPG.
 
SentinelofTruth said:
While this is hardly relevant to the thread, I must say I agree with Heisenberg that physical things only exist insofar as they are perceived. However, I don’t think it follows that there are 6 billion different universes. I think the world is like an algorithm that calculates what perception of it we will have. Our choices can affect the algorithm, much as if it were an MMORPG.
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I disagree. What experiments such as those performed by Heisenberg say or do not say about reality, it is not reality that determines our perception. That is determined by our tools and by our choices of what we are looking for.

And it is a huge mistake to use our observance of ultimate and fleeting states of existence to make sweeping statements about reality in general. God did not create us to wander around in the " universe " of ultimate particles. They are interesting to be sure, but that is not the universe we function in. When we get down to these ultimate conditions we are getting mighty close the Unmoved Mover of St. Thomas. We may even be getting down to something like God’s continuing act of creation ( assuming that we are permitted to suggest such a thing, Thomas never addressed that question and neither has anyone else that I know of and I don’t think the Church has said anything about it.)

Linus2nd
 
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Linusthe2nd:
I disagree. What experiments such as those performed by Heisenberg say or do not say about reality, it is not reality that determines our perception. That is determined by our tools and by our choices of what we are looking for.
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If reality doesn’t determine our perception then what does?
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Linusthe2nd:
And it is a huge mistake to use our observance of ultimate and fleeting states of existence to make sweeping statements about reality in general. God did not create us to wander around in the " universe " of ultimate particles.
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I made no statement about God’s reason for creating us. Also, I do not use by observances to make this statement.
 
What this question is asking is can a non-existent universe create itself into existence? The idea is illogical.
 
SentinelofTruth said:
If reality doesn’t determine our perception then what does?
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I was trying to say that experiments like that tell us nothing about the reality we perceive. Naturally, it is reality which determines our perceptions. But it is the reality that can actuall be sensed - without tools.
I made no statement about God’s reason for creating us. Also, I do not use by observances to make this statement.
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I was objecting to this statement, " I think the world is like an algorithm that calculates what perception of it we will have. Our choices can affect the algorithm, much as if it were an MMORPG. "

You seem to be implying that the world is thinking and that our thinking affects the world. I would disagree that the world is like an " algorithm. " What do you mean by that?

Linus2nd
 
JamesCaruso said:
Don’t forget that at the general resurrection we will receive our bodies back in a glorified form which is not exactly the same as spiritual. For example, Christ talked and ate with his disciples after his death but before he returned to the Father, yet could pass through walls, which may or may not be an ability of a glorified body (I guess he could have done the same before he died). What our role will be in the next life is unclear, but we do know that we will have our bodies back.

The good nuns always taught us that spirits, like the angels, are space specific, that is, they are not everywhere simply because they are spirits. Only God is everywhere, they taught us. But, they said, an angel can think where he wants to be and he is there. It sounds plausible to me. It also agrees with the idea of a guardian angel specific to a single person, and demons who “wander about seeking the ruin of souls” and who also possess individual human beings. I think the nuns had their theology right.
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Be great to have a new body, although this one has been good,but it’s worn out,
 
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Linusthe2nd:
I was trying to say that experiments like that tell us nothing about the reality we perceive.
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I said nothing about Heisenberg’s experiments.
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Linusthe2nd:
You seem to be implying that the world is thinking and that our thinking affects the world. I would disagree that the world is like an " algorithm. " What do you mean by that?
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The world is not thinking. Our thinking, however, or rather our will, certainly does affect it.
By algorithm I mean that physical objects do not exist in themselves. Do you know programming? If so it would be much easier to explain this.
 
SentinelofTruth said:
I said nothing about Heisenberg’s experiments.
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Well, I beg your pardon.

The world is not thinking. Our thinking, however, or rather our will, certainly does affect it.
By algorithm I mean that physical objects do not exist in themselves. Do you know programming? If so it would be much easier to explain this.

We don’t live in an illusory universe, I don’t care what you have learned in programing. Err…are you serious. Because if you are that is serious.

Linus2nd
 
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Linusthe2nd:
We don’t live in an illusory universe, I don’t care what you have learned in programing. Err…are you serious. Because if you are that is serious.
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First, I didn’t learn this in programming. I was just saying it would be easier to explain if you knew programming.
Second, the universe is not in the fullest sense “illusory”, because it is true that our actions affect other people, but the aspect of it’s inherent reality is illusory.
 
SentinelofTruth said:
First, I didn’t learn this in programming. I was just saying it would be easier to explain if you knew programming.
Second, the universe is not in the fullest sense “illusory”, because it is true that our actions affect other people,
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but the aspect of it’s inherent reality is illusory.
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And what do you mean by its " inherent reality? " And how is that illusory? And what has that got to do with the O.P.?

Linus2nd
 
Linusthe2nd said:
Why don’t you take a look at the references I gave? Thomas Aquinas has some interesting things to say, so does Fr. Spitzer.
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In his video ‘Scientific Evidence of God’s existence’, he spends over an hour explaining that it is generally accepted that there was something we call the Big Bang, then he says that if there was start, then something must have started it. ‘And let’s call that something…God’.

Well, there you go. Who could possibly argue with that…
 
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