Could the Universe have Created Itself?

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By answering that challenge Thomistic Philosophers are showing that God can be reached with reason, science has not " killed " him and will never be able to do so.
If philosophers have shown that knowledge of God can be attained with reason, why do some philosophers reject the arguments? When you prove a mathematical theorem, such as the Pythagorean theorem in Euclidean geometry, there is universal agreement. No one disagrees with the proof. Why should not this be true for a proof for the existence of God, unless the proof is possibly not a proof but only an opinion? People can reasonably differ in their opinions, but not so with proofs.
 
If philosophers have shown that knowledge of God can be attained with reason, why do some philosophers reject the arguments? When you prove a mathematical theorem, such as the Pythagorean theorem in Euclidean geometry, there is universal agreement. No one disagrees with the proof. Why should not this be true for a proof for the existence of God, unless the proof is possibly not a proof but only an opinion? People can reasonably differ in their opinions, but not so with proofs.
Proofs require axiomatic premises. Without self-evident premises, the grounds for any argument remain as disputable as the premises.

Axiomatic premises are sometimes so self-evident that only an insane person could dispute them, which needn’t stop some individuals from doing so.

On the other hand, when the nature or subject of the proof makes it more difficult to work out the axiomatic first principles, the implications will often be as contentious as the premises.

It isn’t that proofs are not possible or merely opinions, but that the first principles are less likely to conduce agreement, for a number of reasons.

I can think of two right off the bat…

A slug would not accept the first principles of math because a slug’s brain cannot comprehend the first principles required for the rest of mathematics to fall into place. So obviously capacity for intelligence is one reason first principles are disputed. Some just can’t fully comprehend them.

Another reason could be simple dishonesty. If a particular first principle is accepted it leads to unwanted conclusions, therefore, first principles are denied. Whenever something important is at stake, this is more likely the problem. Whether a person accepts or denies mathematical first principles, not much is changed regarding how the conclusions impinge on lifestyle. So accepting mathematical first principles is not typically contended, except by math heads, perhaps.

This is why ethical and religious first principles are those most contended. There is much more at stake.

Scientific first principles have immediate and concrete payoff, so there is a built-in reward system for getting those “right.”

Ethical and religious first principles have more extended “stake” timelines - life long benefit or eternal welfare - the consequences of which are arguably less immediate and leave wriggle room as a result. Immediate payoff vs long-term. So the “short-termers” will challenge first principles proffered by “long-termers” and disagreements arise.
 
Proofs require axiomatic premises. Without self-evident premises, the grounds for any argument remain as disputable as the premises.

Axiomatic premises are sometimes so self-evident that only an insane person could dispute them, which needn’t stop some individuals from doing so.

On the other hand, when the nature or subject of the proof makes it more difficult to work out the axiomatic first principles, the implications will often be as contentious as the premises.

It isn’t that proofs are not possible or merely opinions, but that the first principles are less likely to conduce agreement, for a number of reasons.

I can think of two right off the bat…

A slug would not accept the first principles of math because a slug’s brain cannot comprehend the first principles required for the rest of mathematics to fall into place. So obviously capacity for intelligence is one reason first principles are disputed. Some just can’t fully comprehend them.

Another reason could be simple dishonesty. If a particular first principle is accepted it leads to unwanted conclusions, therefore, first principles are denied. Whenever something important is at stake, this is more likely the problem. Whether a person accepts or denies mathematical first principles, not much is changed regarding how the conclusions impinge on lifestyle. So accepting mathematical first principles is not typically contended, except by math heads, perhaps.

This is why ethical and religious first principles are those most contended. There is much more at stake.

Scientific first principles have immediate and concrete payoff, so there is a built-in reward system for getting those “right.”

Ethical and religious first principles have more extended “stake” timelines - life long benefit or eternal welfare - the consequences of which are arguably less immediate and leave wriggle room as a result. Immediate payoff vs long-term. So the “short-termers” will challenge first principles proffered by “long-termers” and disagreements arise.
What are the axioms or first principles that you are talking about that are necessary to prove that God exists?
 
What are the axioms or first principles that you are talking about that are necessary to prove that God exists?
  1. From nothing nothing comes.
  2. Everything that begins to exist needs a cause.
  3. For everything that exists a sufficient reason for its existence is necessary.
  4. Contradictory statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same time.
 
  1. From nothing nothing comes.
  2. Everything that begins to exist needs a cause.
  3. For everything that exists a sufficient reason for its existence is necessary.
  4. Contradictory statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same time.
For (2) what is your definition of the term “cause”. Take for example, the question of lung cancer. Does smoking cause lung cancer or are the two merely correlated?
How does cause differ from correlation?
 
For (2) what is your definition of the term “cause”. Take for example, the question of lung cancer. Does smoking cause lung cancer or are the two merely correlated?
How does cause differ from correlation?
Are you saying lung cancer doesn’t have a cause?

Does failure to identify a specific cause constitute a refutation of the principle?

If not, why are you asking?
 
er… the universe isn’t the totality of everything that exists. The universe exists within the Creator and He is infinite. And ‘nothingness’ refers to the state within the Creator before matter or space was created. They were created from ‘nothing’, that is, from no pre-existing material. You could argue that all the rest of the infinite Creators presence in which the universe does not yet currently reside in consists of Him, the Creator, and ‘nothingness’.
Err… God is not a thing. Come on, work with me here Paddy. Maybe a pantheist might call God a thing, but surely no Christian. Therefore, like I said, the universe is the totality of everything that exists.
 
Err… God is not a thing. Come on, work with me here Paddy. Maybe a pantheist might call God a thing, but surely no Christian. Therefore, like I said, the universe is the totality of everything that exists.
…and everywhere in God where there is no universe there is no-thing? 😉
 
You have it all jumbled up. I am speaking for Thomistic Philosophy only. It has been under rentless attack by well known men of science and the philosophy of science which grew out of Galileo and Newton and has reached a screaming pitch today. By answering that challenge Thomistic Philosophers are showing that God can be reached with reason, science has not " killed " him and will never be able to do so.
Oh come on, it’s not under “relentless attack”, his physics was shown to be wrong a long time back, end of story. Outside of historians why would anyone care? Concentrate on what he got right.

It doesn’t matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn’t matter how smart you are. If it doesn’t agree with experiment, it’s wrong. - Richard Feynman
We are not saying that Philosophy " reveals " the totality of God and His relationship with man or man’s relationship with him. That is job of Faith. We are witnessing to the God who reveales himself in nature. That is why I don’t understand your objection. And I must say your particlar slant is one I have never run across before. Is this something you have acquired on your own or have you gotten it through some source? Can you explain it?
Do you mean knowing a bit of science, or do you mean knowing Christ? Surely neither is exactly a rarity?

And who is this royal “we” you speak of? When did you get to be leader of a gang? 😛
 
…and everywhere in God where there is no universe there is no-thing? 😉
Sorry, you’ll have to explain what you mean by “everywhere in God”? Don’t you believe God is simple and unchanging? How can a changing universe be a place in an unchanging God? :confused:
 
Sorry, you’ll have to explain what you mean by “everywhere in God”? Don’t you believe God is simple and unchanging? How can a changing universe be a place in an unchanging God? :confused:
I presume God is infinite. The universe is finite. And that ‘we live and move in God’. So the universe is in God. Not God. And not infinite.
🤷
 
Oh come on, it’s not under “relentless attack”, his physics was shown to be wrong a long time back, end of story. Outside of historians why would anyone care? Concentrate on what he got right.

It doesn’t matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn’t matter how smart you are. If it doesn’t agree with experiment, it’s wrong. - Richard Feynman

Do you mean knowing a bit of science, or do you mean knowing Christ? Surely neither is exactly a rarity?

And who is this royal “we” you speak of? When did you get to be leader of a gang? 😛
 
Oh come on, it’s not under “relentless attack”, his physics was shown to be wrong a long time back, end of story. Outside of historians why would anyone care? Concentrate on what he got right.
When you challenge the fact that it has been under relentless attack, you demonstrate ignorance of the history of philosophical discussion which has taken place since the early 1700s at least and certainly as it has been going on in the last fifty years or so.

Not " end of story. " Condemning the philosophy of St. Thomas or to doubt the validity of Thomas’ Five Ways on the basis that his " physics " is wrong, is arguing against a straw man, for Thomas was not teaching " physics " or any branch of science.

He simply stated, " The first and more manifest way is the argument from motion. It is certain, and evident to our senses, that in the world some things are in motion. Now whatever is moved is moved by another, for nothing can be in motion except it is in potentiality to that towards which it is in motion; whereas a thing moves inasmuch as it is in act. For motion is nothing else than the reduction of something from potentiality to actuality. But nothing can be reduced from potentiality to actuality, except by something in a state of actuality. Thus that which is actually hot, as fire, makes wood, which is potentially hot, to be actually hot, and thereby moves and changes it. Now it is not possible that the same thing should be at once in actuality and potentiality in the same respect, but only in different respects. For what is actually hot cannot simultaneously be potentially hot; but it is simultaneously potentially cold. It is therefore impossible that in the same respect and in the same way a thing should be both mover and moved, i.e. that it should move itself. Therefore, whatever is in motion must be put in motion by another. If that by which it is put in motion be itself put in motion, then this also must needs be put in motion by another, and that by another again. But this cannot go on to infinity, because then there would be no first mover, and, consequently, no other mover; seeing that subsequent movers move only inasmuch as they are put in motion by the first mover; as the staff moves only because it is put in motion by the hand. Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God. " ( S.T. Part 1, ques 2, art 3 )

First, it is clear Thomas is not teaching science by saying, " It is certain, and evident to our senses, that in the world some things are moving. " He is stating a self-evident fact. Do you or Feynman deny that it is self-evident that some things are " moving " in the world? If so, you must show that it is not self-evident to the senses that some things in the world are " moving. " You must also explain how stating that something is self-evident is " teaching science or physics. " For I am unaware that something that is self-evident is scientific data.

You must also show how stating that, " whatever is moved is moved by another " is contrary to the facts of science or that this is disproven by science.

And why should anyone care that Thomas’ proofs are and have long been under attack? Because it is an attack that is unwarranted and unjust, it based on false assumptions and it is made by those who have been and do now teach that only science has access to the truth about reality. Futher, most of those attacking the validity of the Five Ways have ulterior motives. They are desireous of disproving any argument which can lead to the conclusion that God exists. Generally, these regard Revelation as less of a threat to their godlessness than the arguments of Thomas. In fact they regard Revelation as a joke. That is why it is important to defend Thomas.

The remainder of your comments are expressions of emotion and prejudice and do not merit a response.

Linus2nd
 
I presume God is infinite. The universe is finite. And that ‘we live and move in God’. So the universe is in God. Not God. And not infinite.
🤷
You might be taking bible literalism a bit far here - God isn’t physical so how can He be infinitely long, infinitely wide and infinitely tall?

In Acts 17:24 Paul says “The God who made the world and everything in it”, so a couple of verses later when he says “For in him we live and move and have our being”, the traditional interpretation is he’s saying God is the source of and sustains our existence.

biblestudytools.com/commentaries/
 
It’s a science website. You might want to reduce Almighty God to the status of scientific hypothesis, but the guys who wrote that page disagree, as I hope do all Catholic scientists and the Pope.
You are correct, I let my prejudices get in the way. The article took the right and correct approach in no going further.

Linus2nd
 
You might be taking bible literalism a bit far here - God isn’t physical so how can He be infinitely long, infinitely wide and infinitely tall?

In Acts 17:24 Paul says “The God who made the world and everything in it”, so a couple of verses later when he says “For in him we live and move and have our being”, the traditional interpretation is he’s saying God is the source of and sustains our existence.

biblestudytools.com/commentaries/
If God exists then we exist in him. And he is infinite. It does not matter that one is material and the other spiritual. Spiritual does not mean non-existent or not infinite. It just means existence as we do not know it.
 
Paddy Walker,

When you say, " If God exists then we exist in him. And he is infinite. It does not matter that one is material and the other spiritual. Spiritual does not mean non-existent or not infinite. It just means existence as we do not know it. " , you are arguing against a straw man. You must argue against the nature of God as he has revealed himself to the Israelites in the Old Testament, and to Christians in the New Testament and as has been treated of by St. Thomas in his various Theologies and Commentaries.

All these define God as a Pure Spirit, Eternal in existence and Infinite in Power and Perfection, and the Creator of the entire universe, and all that is in it, out of nothing in time. And while it is true that God is most intimately active in his creation, guiding it to its proper end and upholding it in existence, he himself dwells in the Eternal Now, while his creatures dwell outside that Eternal Now in the realm of time and matter.

It is inadmissible to argue against a " god " of your own creation.

Linus2nd
 
But time and matter were created within the eternal now, because there was nothing else.
It does not matter to me that there is a region within the eternal now where time and matter also exist. Its not a problem to me.
 
When you challenge the fact that it has been under relentless attack, you demonstrate ignorance of the history of philosophical discussion which has taken place since the early 1700s at least and certainly as it has been going on in the last fifty years or so.
😃 Relentless attack? Shirley Knot. That would mean at least one philosopher leading the charge in every generation since 1700. Please list these massed hoards of philosophers.
*Not " end of story. " Condemning the philosophy of St. Thomas or to doubt the validity of Thomas’ Five Ways on the basis that his " physics " is wrong, is arguing against a straw man, for Thomas was not teaching " physics " or any branch of science.
He simply stated, " The first and more manifest way is the argument from motion. It is certain, and evident to our senses, that in the world some things are in motion.*
Motion, however you define it, is physics. Not metaphysics. Not cake making. Not motorcycle maintenance.
First, it is clear Thomas is not teaching science by saying, " It is certain, and evident to our senses, that in the world some things are moving. " He is stating a self-evident fact. Do you or Feynman deny that it is self-evident that some things are " moving " in the world?
Science is about empirical evidence, meaning sense experience, observation, the things which are evident to our senses.

I deny that in the world only some things are moving, as it’s evident to my senses that all things are moving. All things change continuously. Teresa de Ávila knew that: nada te turbe, nada te espante, todo se pasa, Dios no se muda (let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, everything passes, God does not change).

So it was a Catholic saint from my neck of the woods who started your so-called “relentless attack” around 1550, a couple of generations before Galileo and a while before your massed hoards.

Times were simpler then.

Or so they say.
For I am unaware that something that is self-evident is scientific data.
Then Yoda, you have much to learn.
*You must also show how stating that, " whatever is moved is moved by another " is contrary to the facts of science or that this is disproven by science. *
Already did so several times in several ways on other threads. Was released for good behavior. Well, no, as we both know I escaped.
And why should anyone care that Thomas’ proofs are and have long been under attack? Because it is an attack that is unwarranted and unjust, it based on false assumptions and it is made by those who have been and do now teach that only science has access to the truth about reality. Futher, most of those attacking the validity of the Five Ways have ulterior motives. They are desireous of disproving any argument which can lead to the conclusion that God exists. Generally, these regard Revelation as less of a threat to their godlessness than the arguments of Thomas. In fact they regard Revelation as a joke. That is why it is important to defend Thomas.
Yikes, calm down, you’ll do yourself a mischief. Can you cite evidence that the majority of Catholics are the slightest bit bothered. or even know of, yon argumentums? Fashions come and fashions go, but we live by faith, not by sight :cool:.
 
If God exists then we exist in him. And he is infinite. It does not matter that one is material and the other spiritual. Spiritual does not mean non-existent or not infinite. It just means existence as we do not know it.
That seems more complicated than the doctrine of the trinity, quantum mechanics and brain surgery rolled into one but it’s been a long day. 🙂
 
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