Could the Universe have Created Itself?

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The universe developed as it did restrained only by laws of physics such as gravity.
This brings to mind the question: What is a law of physics? Take for example Newton’s law of gravity. Is it really a law or is it simply a low-mass approximation of general relativity? And how can the law of gravity be a law if, as claimed by the Russian émigré scientist Eugene Podkletnov, gravity can be shielded and thereby negated?
 
The problem with this solution to the dilemma is that the laws of physics were not, originally, immutable. The cosmological constants and laws of physics were completely “accidentally” set if they were not so ordered by God. That means each of the thirty or so constants could have been set along a wide range with wildly divergent results. It was kind of like winning thirty lotteries simultaneously without even buying the tickets. It requires much more faith to subscribe to a non-ordered universe than to a divinely ordered one.
They could have been, but we don’t know that do we? Therefore, the lottery ticket comparison is baseless as is your statement on degrees of faith.
 
This brings to mind the question: What is a law of physics? Take for example Newton’s law of gravity. Is it really a law or is it simply a low-mass approximation of general relativity? And how can the law of gravity be a law if, as claimed by the Russian émigré scientist Eugene Podkletnov, gravity can be shielded and thereby negated?
New developments and discoveries can potentially change the list, but I haven’t heard any major announcements.
 
This brings to mind the question: What is a law of physics? Take for example Newton’s law of gravity. Is it really a law or is it simply a low-mass approximation of general relativity? And how can the law of gravity be a law if, as claimed by the Russian émigré scientist Eugene Podkletnov, gravity can be shielded and thereby negated?
Please provide the experiments which supposedly shield gravfity. I haven’t heard of any.

Linus2nd
 
Do you demonstrate that level of “smart” with, for example, your wife? Do you cross and double-check, keep your eyes peeled, never allow yourself to be conned, swindled nor naively treated etc., etc., by your wife, as an aspect of your “moral duty,” every second of the day?

What you are doing is confusing objective proof with trust.

If God were a snow leopard, alien, flying spaghetti monsteri or garden fairy, then your vigilance regarding proof would be warranted and to your credit.

However, either there is one Creator God who is the explanation for all that is, including yourself OR there is not. It is really that easy. Either / Or

If there is such a God, then trust is the appropriate response.

If not, no amount of proof will ever substitute for or create trust, just as no amount of proof will ever suffice to warrant trusting and loving your wife.

We treat other PERSONS differently than we do objects or events. Persons can never be completely objectified, which is why they can never be sufficiently evidenced in an objective sense, to warrant trust or love.

The trust and love we have for other persons might be broken but it can never be fully proved or warranted by evidence. Trust is a risk we take by putting ourselves into the “hands” of the other, just as love is the risk of pouring yourself out for the other.

Neither of these can ever be contingent on proof or they would never begin to be actualized - we would never trust nor love if these depended upon sufficient and objective “evidence.”

“Smart” is one thing, wisdom is something else, completely. Solomon was the wisest man on Earth until he became smart. That is when things fell apart for him and for Israel.

No other “god” would be worthy of worship in the same way that God is. Lesser “deities” might be respected, feared, tolerated, revered, honored, esteemed, avoided, denounced, hated, sought, proved, falsified, etc., but towards THE God who is Being Itself, Ipsum Esse Subsistens, Actus Purus, the Source of all that exists, there can only be one possible response - absolute faith and loving trust. That is the ONLY means by which he can be intimately known.

We do not come to know other human persons by “proofs” or evidence, we get to know them by entering into a personal relationship with them. By establishing mutual trust we come to know “who” they are are, not “what” they are.

It might be possible to prove “that” God is, but those proofs would never come close to revealing WHO God is.
Objective knowledge can never take the place of subjective intimacy.

Mere children can be very good at the latter, while astrophysicists and biochemists can be totally incompetent.

This universe might be solely and completely an “objective” place or it could be profoundly subjective. You are hedging your bets on objectivity.

What do you think Jesus meant by his words? Do you think he was utterly naive and easy to swindle when he could read the thoughts and intentions of the astute brainiacs and power mongers who held high political or religious office and sought to crucify him?

Perhaps he “knew” something they were - despite their intelligence - completely oblivious to. A light in their darkness?
You are presupposing I have been approached by such a god. Mind you, I have never been approached by a deity. Nevertheless I have been approached by people peddling gods. And that makes a world of a difference.
 
Why would atheists be embarrassed by being unable to prove a negative? Try it sometime. In fact, why would they care? The same thing applies for agnostics.
For the same reason that Bertrand Russell refused to call himself an atheist. He knew he could not prove atheism, and yet he had made that demand for theism. So he called himself an agnostic, which is to say he allowed the possibility of God while at the same time living as though God does not exist.

But it is a true dilemma to allow the possibility of God while at the same time living as though God does not exist.

It is far more logical, once you allow the possibility oif God, to pursue God as far as life allows. But certainly not to shut God off at the age of 18 as though 18 conferred upon you some kind of infallible omniscience.
 
You are presupposing I have been approached by such a god. Mind you, I have never been approached by a deity. Nevertheless I have been approached by people peddling gods. And that makes a world of a difference.
You have been approached by such a God. God does not deny anyone his presence.

Why do you think you are in this forum if not for the approach of God? :confused:
 
Please provide the experiments which supposedly shield gravfity. I haven’t heard of any.

Linus2nd
Please see the following antigravity site:

americanantigravity.com/news/space/eugene-podkletnov-on-gravity-shielding.html
americanantigravity.com/
americanantigravity.com/news/space/john-brandenburg-poynting-vector-antigravity.html
I believe that some of the results announced here are controversial and not widely accepted. However, I read that NASA was looking into some of their claims.
 
You have been approached by such a God. God does not deny anyone his presence.

Why do you think you are in this forum if not for the approach of God? :confused:
I was in a Muslim forum half an hour ago. I was an a Hindu forum two months ago. Interpreting place to be s enough to drive a man to polytheism. Or insane!

So if Mormons come to your door this afternoon, that’s deity calling you to convert? In any case, whatever you may reply, I am sure Mormons and Muslims have a similar response.

Recap: Up to now, the message is reason until reason doesn’t point to your god, then consider god reveals truth to those who are unwise, and if that doesn’t work consider god speaks to you just by winding up talking with Catholics, and when the other answers that s/he has spoken with others, the dodge-du-jour is now…?
 
The universe developed as it did restrained only by laws of physics such as gravity.
It is not that easy to say what is a fundamental law of nature and what looks like a law but is just a fit to a curve and is really not a law at all. Take for example, Kepler and his three laws of planetary motion, which can be derived from Newton’s Laws of motion. Before he came across his 3 laws of planetary motion, Kepler explained the orbits of the planets by a geometric method involving regular polyhedra, which today we reject as comparable to curve fitting. But we accept his 3 laws of planetary motion as fundamental in some sense.
 
I was in a Muslim forum half an hour ago. I was an a Hindu forum two months ago. Interpreting place to be s enough to drive a man to polytheism. Or insane!
But why?
Muslims believe in God do they not?
I am not sure about Hinduism, but I believe it has a henotheistic concept of God, which is not the same as the Christian concept of praying to the saints for intercession, but people have drawn parallels along those lines.
 
I was in a Muslim forum half an hour ago. I was an a Hindu forum two months ago. Interpreting place to be s enough to drive a man to polytheism. Or insane!

So if Mormons come to your door this afternoon, that’s deity calling you to convert? In any case, whatever you may reply, I am sure Mormons and Muslims have a similar response.

Recap: Up to now, the message is reason until reason doesn’t point to your god, then consider god reveals truth to those who are unwise, and if that doesn’t work consider god speaks to you just by winding up talking with Catholics, and when the other answers that s/he has spoken with others, the dodge-du-jour is now…?
The true God is the God of us all: Christians, Jews, Mormons, Muslims.

That you are visiting all these forums may well be a repeated call to find Our Lord.

Good luck in your search.
 
I sincerely want to thank everyone who has been involved in this conversation over the last several days. On my part, I have read many points that have prompted thought for me. That’s why I come.

Sometimes I run into people who only want to win their points, but this group was obviously out to help me and the others who vary from classic Catholicism. It has been wonderful.

I really don’t have anything of value to add to the conversation, so I am going to bow out and give a great deal of thought to the points made.

May all of you Gods bless you and your family and my each of us know the truth before we take those last breaths.

All my very best,

John
 
I sincerely want to thank everyone who has been involved in this conversation over the last several days. On my part, I have read many points that have prompted thought for me. That’s why I come.

Sometimes I run into people who only want to win their points, but this group was obviously out to help me and the others who vary from classic Catholicism. It has been wonderful.

I really don’t have anything of value to add to the conversation, so I am going to bow out and give a great deal of thought to the points made.

May all of you Gods bless you and your family and my each of us know the truth before we take those last breaths.

All my very best,

John
Thank you for your lively visit, John. 🙂

May God bless you and your family in your search for the truth.
 
Values vary over time and cultures. For example, some couples say it is a mortal sin to use any form of artificial birth control, even if they already have 10 children. However, there are environmentalists who say it would be wrong not to use ABC in such circumstances. There are some who say that marriage between homosexuals should be allowed. there have even been cases where Roman Catholic priests have blessed such marriages. In fact, I got a school magazine from my Catholic school which talks about the accomplishments of alumni and alumnae and has pictures celebrating marriages. Well, what do you know: On one page of this Catholic magazine, there was a picture of two homosexual men getting married and we are supposed to celebrate that? There was a time when slavery was accepted, now it is not. There was a time when torture at an Inquisition was accepted. Now it is not.
The variety of values does not imply that all beliefs and values are relative. Otherwise relativity would apply to the value of the belief that all beliefs and values are relative! 🙂

Do you believe the truth is relative? If so what is it relative to?

Don’t you believe we should always do what we are convinced is right?
 
Do you believe the truth is relative? If so what is it relative to?
It is relative to the culture. Take for example, the question of capital punishment. During the Inquisition times, there are examples of people who were excommunicated when they opposed burning of a heretic at the stake (see the books by Charles Lea). However, nowadays, according to an article in the local Catholic diocesan newspaper, Christians are called to oppose capital punishment. So which is it? What is the truth about capital punishment? Is it right or wrong? Or does it depend on the time and culture you live in and therefore a relative truth?
 
Don’t you believe we should always do what we are convinced is right?
No, I do not. Take for example the married couple who are convinced that it is right to use artificial birth control. Instead of using ABC, which they are convinced is the right thing to do for them in their circumstances, they should instead listen to the infallible voice of the Roman Catholic Church which teaches that it is a mortal sin.
 
Please see the following antigravity site:

americanantigravity.com/news/space/eugene-podkletnov-on-gravity-shielding.html
americanantigravity.com/
americanantigravity.com/news/space/john-brandenburg-poynting-vector-antigravity.html
I believe that some of the results announced here are controversial and not widely accepted. However, I read that NASA was looking into some of their claims.
Yes, highly questionable. Not at all anything you can hang your hat on. I will await an experiment which places such a possibility beyond doubt to the average layman. Personally I doubt it can be done. Gravity is real, hardly anyone doubts that but shielding it is quite another thing.

Linus2nd
 
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