Could the Universe have Created Itself?

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By all means, share this evidence with me.

Sure it can, in the very same way that Christians believe God can account for his own existence. It’s the same assumption, just with one fewer entity involved. (Your explanation requires us to postulate God and suppose he’s eternal, whereas my explanation just assumes that something we already know exists is eternal.) In fact, this view would be preferable by Occam’s Razor.
But Occam’s Razor has to apply to be persuasive. It doesn’t apply here, because matter cannot make anything happen, it cannot move or change anything unless it be moved by something having the power to move or change it. And matter cannot give rise to mind, conscience, will, knowledge, order, purpose. These things require the application of intellect and will.

Oh, BTY, Pascal’s wager is more persuasive, more reasonable than unbelieve, certainly more persuasive than Occam’s Razor…

P.S. Watch the movie, it will give you scientific proof. And if you don’t think it does, just think of the fun you will have rebutting it!

Linus2nd.
 
But Occam’s Razor has to apply to be persuasive. It doesn’t apply here, because matter cannot make anything happen, it cannot move or change anything unless it be moved by something having the power to move or change it.
It can’t make anything happen? Literally everything you have ever observed has been caused by pieces of matter (or the equivalent, energy) interacting. Besides, who’s to say we fully understand how matter works? We still can’t account for the fundamental forces, e.g., why does matter induce a gravitational field?

It seems like you guys are content to rely on a God you barely understand (by your own admission), but apparently you aren’t willing to grant the same treatment to science. You’re assuming that we know absolutely everything there is to know about the universe, all the way down to metaphysical properties, which are beyond the realm of science anyway.
And matter cannot give rise to mind, conscience, will…
Prove it. I take it that you aren’t a fan of the theory of evolution?
…knowledge, order, purpose. These things require the application of intellect and will.
We certainly have knowledge, although we seem to have come about by the blind forces of nature. As for order and purpose, I don’t see what you mean.

Suppose hypothetically that you are right, and that there is indeed a purpose and order to the universe. Wouldn’t it be more apparent? Wouldn’t the overwhelming majority of people see this purpose and agree with each other on the matter? The thing is, they don’t. Everyone looks at the world and sees whatever purpose they wish to see, which is precisely what you’d expect to happen if there were no purpose at all.
Oh, BTY, Pascal’s wager is more persuasive, more reasonable than unbelieve, certainly more persuasive than Occam’s Razor…
Pascal’s wager isn’t an argument for God’s existence, it is an argument that it is more rational to believe in God simply because that option offers you a possible payoff. And frankly it doesn’t even argue that very well. I could dream up infinitely many gods that require me to believe in them for salvation, and all are just as likely as the Christian god. So your probabilistic argument falls apart since every payoff has an equal chance of occurring. Besides, God would know if I tried to believe just to get to Heaven, and he wouldn’t be pleased.

Seriously, you’ll have to do far better than “Believe as we Christians do, and you’ll get free chocolate and gummy bears for eternity…maybe”. 😛
 
It can’t make anything happen? Literally everything you have ever observed has been caused by pieces of matter (or the equivalent, energy) interacting. Besides, who’s to say we fully understand how matter works? We still can’t account for the fundamental forces, e.g., why does matter induce a gravitational field?

It seems like you guys are content to rely on a God you barely understand (by your own admission), but apparently you aren’t willing to grant the same treatment to science. You’re assuming that we know absolutely everything there is to know about the universe, all the way down to metaphysical properties, which are beyond the realm of science anyway.

Prove it. I take it that you aren’t a fan of the theory of evolution?

We certainly have knowledge, although we seem to have come about by the blind forces of nature. As for order and purpose, I don’t see what you mean.

Suppose hypothetically that you are right, and that there is indeed a purpose and order to the universe. Wouldn’t it be more apparent? Wouldn’t the overwhelming majority of people see this purpose and agree with each other on the matter? The thing is, they don’t. Everyone looks at the world and sees whatever purpose they wish to see, which is precisely what you’d expect to happen if there were no purpose at all.

Pascal’s wager isn’t an argument for God’s existence, it is an argument that it is more rational to believe in God simply because that option offers you a possible payoff. And frankly it doesn’t even argue that very well. I could dream up infinitely many gods that require me to believe in them for salvation, and all are just as likely as the Christian god. So your probabilistic argument falls apart since every payoff has an equal chance of occurring. Besides, God would know if I tried to believe just to get to Heaven, and he wouldn’t be pleased.

Seriously, you’ll have to do far better than “Believe as we Christians do, and you’ll get free chocolate and gummy bears for eternity…maybe”. 😛
One thing is certain, if you are dead set against believing in God, you never will. On the other hand, God will reward an honest effort. Sorry, no gummy bears, our glorified bodies will be beyond physical desires or needs. Just think of Heaven as the place of ultimate intellectual and psychological fulfillment.:). That sounds like a good place to me.

Linus2nd
 
One thing is certain, if you are dead set against believing in God, you never will.
And there it is, the last resort: “You just don’t believe in God because you’re closeminded!”

If you don’t have any rebuttal then just say so. Respectfully tip your hat and exit the discussion. Don’t try to get the last word by pretending that you’re concerned for my soul. I don’t need anyone’s charity or pity.
 
Seriously, you’ll have to do far better than “Believe as we Christians do, and you’ll get free chocolate and gummy bears for eternity…maybe”. 😛
You make it sound so appealing. :rolleyes:

The atheist version is, “Believe as we do and you’ll be free to imagine you make your own rules about chocolate and gummy bears…maybe… at least until you die and find out absolutely whether your gamble was, indeed, worth it.”

The problem is that we didn’t create reality so I see no reason to think “writing the rules” is within our prerogative.

It isn’t a question of chocolate and gummy bears in any case. It IS a question of meaning and purpose. We are here. We are creatures with an unquenchable need for meaning and purpose. To deny that meaning and purpose has anything to do with our why we are actually here, but are simply psychological “artifacts,” lacks substantive “oomph.” It is muzak for the soul. A quaint myth that has the same provenance as a drinken stupor
 
You make it sound so appealing. :rolleyes:

The atheist version is, “Believe as we do and you’ll be free to imagine you make your own rules about chocolate and gummy bears…maybe… at least until you die and find out absolutely whether your gamble was, indeed, worth it.”
The difference is that I’m not trying to sell atheism (that’s why you said this, not me). My atheism is a direct result of the failure of religion to supply answers in a satisfactory way. It is NOT the result of pragmatic concerns such as “What’s in it for me when I die?” If you want a guaranteed luxury, seek out your nearest car dealer, but I’m not peddling wares here.
The problem is that we didn’t create reality so I see no reason to think “writing the rules” is within our prerogative.
I’m not sure what you mean. Who said we are writing rules for anything?
We are creatures with an unquenchable need for meaning and purpose. To deny that meaning and purpose has anything to do with our why we are actually here, but are simply psychological “artifacts,” lacks substantive “oomph.” It is muzak for the soul. A quaint myth that has the same provenance as a drinken stupor
This is all emotional. You have not demonstrated purpose, you’ve simply shown that we desire it. I wish to be loved, but that does not in itself prove that I am loved.
 
This is all emotional. You have not demonstrated purpose, you’ve simply shown that we desire it. I wish to be loved, but that does not in itself prove that I am loved.
We desire meaning and purpose. Atheism does not provide a sufficient supply based upon my experience. Ergo atheism is not sufficiently meaningful nor purposeful. I continue to seek elsewhere.

At some point prospecting that only turns up rocks and lumps of clay ought to be abandoned. If you want to continue digging through rubble, I won’t try to stop you. You’re a big boy or girl. (I presume.)

You aren’t “selling” atheism but you are here throwing up constant commentary that attempts to dissuade others from mining in this hillside when - if you really had something to offer - you should be off reaping an abundance in your own. Obviously, you are here because the fruits of your labour in the atheism quarry have been negligible and you are doing some scouting.

My labours in Christianity have resulted in enormous payouts in terms of meaning and purpose. What reason would I have to stop, just because you can’t see the value in what I am extracting? I value and treasure it. That fact shouldn’t bother you if your atheism quarry is so rewarding. You are free to dig there and live off its spoils. I am just not sure why you would bother coming here to the intellectual wasteland and squander your time flapping your lips if it’s so “lush” over there.
 
We desire meaning and purpose. Atheism does not provide a sufficient supply based upon my experience. Ergo atheism is not sufficiently meaningful nor purposeful. I continue to seek elsewhere.
Atheism doesn’t seek to provide anything. It doesn’t promise you fame, fortune, or glory. It only offers intellectual honesty. There is zero evidence that there is purpose, or an afterlife, or any of the other promises of religion. No, I can’t promise anyone that atheism will make you feel good, but it won’t mislead you with wishful thinking.

And since the truth is what we’re seeking, shouldn’t that be all that matters? If you aren’t seeking truth and you just want an emotional crutch instead, then I would agree that atheism isn’t for you.
What reason would I have to stop, just because you can’t see the value in what I am extracting? I value and treasure it. That fact shouldn’t bother you if your atheism quarry is so rewarding.
It’s not a question of value or rewards. It’s a question of truth. You’ve displaced the quest for truth for the quest to make yourself feel good. Even if atheists were the most miserable people in history, that would be irrelevant as to whether or not they were being rational. Again, if you’re willing to forfeit rationality just to feel good, be my guest. Ignorance is bliss.
 
Our attempt at trying to find design in the universe may be somewhat illusory. For example, before Kepler, many astronomers thought that they had found the design of the solar system by epicycles, which today is regarded as wrong.
Your preference for a lack of design may also be illusory. 😃

So you see, the philosophy (not the science) of atheism is alive and well with you, even if Hawking thinks it is dead.
 
Atheism doesn’t seek to provide anything. It doesn’t promise you fame, fortune, or glory. It only offers intellectual honesty. There is zero evidence that there is purpose, or an afterlife, or any of the other promises of religion. No, I can’t promise anyone that atheism will make you feel good, but it won’t mislead you with wishful thinking.

And since the truth is what we’re seeking, shouldn’t that be all that matters? If you aren’t seeking truth and you just want an emotional crutch instead, then I would agree that atheism isn’t for you.
There is nothing honest about atheism. It demands proof for God, but no proof for Nogod.

What’s honest about that? :confused:

Besides, I’ve always believed that atheism is wishful thinking. The atheist cannot stand the thought of an Ego bigger than his own. That was the same problem of Adam and Eve. Nothing has changed. People do not hate God because he does not exist. They hate him because He does exist.

Chesterton was right.
 
To build on Tomdstone’s point, the unnerving thing is that theories that assume design can even appear to work. The Greek model of the solar system using epicycles and deferents was fairly accurate, for example. But this model was nonetheless far more complicated than our current model, which doesn’t assume any nice designs.

It’s not so much a question of accuracy. If you add enough ad hoc hypotheses you can make any explanation fit. It’s a question of simplicity and Occam’s razor.
 
There is nothing honest about atheism. It demands proof for God, but no proof for Nogod.
No, atheism is a lack of belief in gods, not the belief in no gods. Epistemologically they are very different.
Besides, I’ve always believed that atheism is wishful thinking. The atheist cannot stand the thought of an Ego bigger than his own.
That may be true for some people but certainly not all. When I was younger I dearly wanted to believe in God. The thought of no afterlife was unbearable, and it still gets to me sometimes. But hey, the truth hurts. It was only after my need for an emotional crutch disappeared that my belief in God also faded. In other words, I only believed in him because it comforted me.
 
To build on Tomdstone’s point, the unnerving thing is that theories that assume design can even appear to work. The Greek model of the solar system using epicycles and deferents was fairly accurate, for example. But this model was nonetheless far more complicated than our current model, which doesn’t assume any nice designs.
Yes, the presence of design anywhere in the universe should be unnerving to the atheist. Because if the atheist can design a sentence, there is no reason why the Creator could not design a universe.
 
It’s not a question of value or rewards. It’s a question of truth. You’ve displaced the quest for truth for the quest to make yourself feel good.
You do understand what the word “meaning” means, no?

It entails apprehending the importance of anything.

It might be “true” that I have a certain amount of lint in my pocket, but that would be insignificant and inconsequential. Are you going to accuse me of abandoning my “quest for truth” if I don’t spend an inordinate amount of time on a quest to identify every strand of lint because such an enterprise doesn’t suffice to “make me feel good” and I should not abandon a quest for the truth about lint?

So, NO, I haven’t “displaced the quest for truth.” What I have done is refined it, by distinguishing “meaningful” truth from insignificant truth according to the criteria I deem the most serious and sublime.

It isn’t a matter of “making yourself feel good,” it is a matter of discriminating one’s taste for “truth.”

One of Jesus’ most important sayings is, “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.”

The reason I think it is key is because it doesn’t apply so much to us, as if we have any pearls or any sacred valuables to cast, but because God does. Jesus was speaking of himself in the saying and, only, by extension, to the Apostles after their rebirth. It was an analogy referring to his mission undertaken to the darkness of the pig sty or dog run.

We are the dogs, the pigs, that only recognize slop (or straw as per Aquinas.) What is required of us is that we become less swine-like in order to recognize the pearls and sacred things cast our way, which God will not, in any case, give us so long as we remain piggish or houndish. The more brutish we are, the less likely we are to see things of value as having value. Pigs are only interested in one thing - devouring what is before them and trampling the rest in the mud.

So God’s problem is how to get the boars to see the pearls and value them.

If, like boars, our interest in “meaning” pertains only to what we can consume, then our meaning “detectors” will be attuned only to slop and we shouldn’t expect God, as pearl-caster, to give us anything more than detritus.

And, if we are only attuned to slop, our perspective on the nature of the “slop-giver” will only lead so far as the hand that drops it, since we only have interest in consumption to the point of satiation. A pointing hand means very little to a dog, but a hand holding a bone is quite a different story.

My perspective, as a discontented boar (or prodigal son stuck in the pig sty,) is that slop is insufficient, but in order to recognize, first the pearls and, only then, the hand of the pearl caster, I need to retune my boarishness away from an appetite for slop.

The irony is that you view that enterprise as “displacing a quest for truth” as if slop had any truth beyond that it is useful for fattening pigs.

Unfortunately, a leopard cannot change its spots and neither can a hog its appetite, which is why Christianity, especially Catholicism, with its view of our predicament (fall into the mud of concupiscence), Christ (the pearl caster) coming into the sty, our need for conversion from boarishness, grace as a vehicle for redemption from the boardom, all fit with where I am at.

It is not so much that I have misplaced my quest for truth, as having lost my appetite for eating slop and wallowing in mud, but having realized that, as a boar without much of a “taste” for pearls and sacred things, I have to rely on the pearl caster to work a miracle and change me into a being who recognizes that slop and mud do not have enduring value in order to see where real meaning is to be found. Metanoia is required, lest I end up trampling the pearls and turn against the Keeper of the Sacred.
 
It’s not so much a question of accuracy. If you add enough ad hoc hypotheses you can make any explanation fit. It’s a question of simplicity and Occam’s razor.
Both of which function to make any theory constrained and razed by them ad hoc since they both impose stipulations about what an explanation should look like, not what it actually is.
 
No, atheism is a lack of belief in gods, not the belief in no gods. Epistemologically they are very different.
.
Yes, of course, my cat “lacks a belief in God,” therefore it, too, must be an atheist. Ditto with my shoe, my teacup and this bush in front of my house. Atheism has certainly mushroomed of late, with every rock and pebble now proclaimed to be “atheist” owing to their lack of beliefs.

Clearly, NO epistemology is actually required to be an atheist, then.
 
You do understand what the word “meaning” means, no?

It entails apprehending the importance of anything.
But importance is a subjective notion, and so it is with many words in our language. For example, if you describe someone as annoying, what does that mean? Grammatically you are describing the person, but semantically you are describing yourself as well, because someone who is annoying to you may not be annoying to someone else. Importance is similar–it is not an inherent property, it is a subjective notion, an interaction between the object and your own preferences.

As for your comment about inanimate objects being atheists, you’re being intentionally difficult. Fine, an atheist is a being capable of cognition that lacks belief in God. Happy now?

Regarding Occam’s razor, eliminating ad hoc hypotheses to the greatest extent possible is important. Watch, I’ll explain rainbows with some ad hoc assistance: Rainbows are produced by pots of gold that are maintained by leprechauns. Why haven’t we seen leprechauns, you ask? They’re invisible, of course. Why can’t we touch them? They’re ethereal, silly! Ah, you want to find the pot of gold though? Well the pot of gold is at the end of the rainbow. Since rainbows change their orientation everytime you move, as they are merely optical phenomena, my theory is unfalsifiable.

Science would be dominated with this nonsense without Occam’s razor, because even a child could explain anything if ad hoc is allowed.
 
Of course it is :rolleyes:
A brilliant argument, as always. Next time you think that what is “important” is so obvious, just remember that some people dedicate their lives to scholarship. Some indulge in industriousness, or hedonism. Some are in such a state that they are willing to end their own lives.

It is profoundly arrogant to assume that your own preferences are universally held and that everyone shares your priorities.
 
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