Could these words actually have come from the mouth of a Supreme Pontiff?

[Gab123]

Yes, that’s why we have the Catechism of the Catholic Church to guide people out of confusion.

 

[Dovekin]

As Pope Benedict explained, the proper hermeneutic is the one used by these popes, the “hermeneutic of reform.” The “hermeneutic of continuity” was introduced later and really has nothing to do with the understanding of Vatican II. I am not sure why people keep bringing up h. of continuity and ignoring h. of reform.

Part of this may come from the dynamic explained at Vatican II in Dei Verbum:

the task of authentically interpreting the word of God, whether written or handed on, has been entrusted exclusively to the living teaching office of the Church. DV 10

Authentic interpretation is ongoing, entrusted to a living magisterium guided by the Spirit, not the dead letter of “stable formulas.” St John XXIII established that in his opening address to the Council, when he noted the difference between the truth we teach and the formulas that we use to teach it.

 

[Dovekin]

You did, and yet Dei Verbum as I quoted it treats them in the same way. I am not sure what you are getting at, whether you agree, disagree, or what.

 

[Gab123]

That you have to trust the Church, not the Internet.

 

[Gab123]

yes, pope Pius X was writing about modernist, who denied that the Church us a divine institution, the problem is that you are taking this out of context and applying it as if he was talking about the Vatican II documents. There will always be scoundrels within both the clergy and the laity, but again, what part of Vatican II puzzles you? What goes against infallible Church teaching?

 

[Dovekin]

???

To whom does “they” refer? As I said, I am not sure what you are getting at. I cannot find any plural that could make sense of this.

I do not think Dei Verbum allows for ambiguity in Scripture or Tradition because the only authentic interpretation comes from the Magisterium. You apparently think every interpretation is authentic and so Tradition is ambiguous? What are you trying to say, if not that? It just does not make sense to me.

The proposition, which asserts “that in these later times there has been spread a general obscuring of the more important truths pertaining to religion, which are the basis of faith and of the moral teachings of Jesus Christ,”—heretical. Auctorem Fidem

I guess I get something very different from Auctorem Fidem than you do. It seems to me to condemn the notion that conciliar documents are ambiguous, which I thought was your position? My resolution is to rely on the living magisterium, but you seem to have an alternative? I cannot figure out what it is.

Generally that is my position in these discussions, relying on the living magisterium. That is why I quote them, and Vatican II; to show their support for the positions I take. If you think you have a better understanding of what has been taught than Popes Benedict or Francis, I am glad to listen. But I have my doubts.

 

[Gab123]

So then be clear already. Exactly what texts according to you, needs to be corrected by the Church?

 

[Emeraldlady]

Hmm…was Pope John Paul II “misinterpreting” Nostra aetate when he organized the Assisi gatherings? Was Pope Paul VI “misinterpreting” Sacrosanctum concilium when he introduced the Novus Ordo Missae? I think not. So what is the correct interpretation of Vatican II? Was it the hermeneutic introduced by these two popes, or Pope Benedict’s “hermeneutic of continuity”?

[/quote]

From my Catholic perspective, this modernist trend of questioning every decision of all our Popes is the error of discontinuity. Over 2000 years the Church has striven to serve the generation of faithful through the living Magisterium. It’s truly nuts to believe that the teachings of the first Popes could serve 2000 years of Christianity without changing according to the fundamental tradition of mission.

Why waste your days making complications out of lets face it, very minimal expertise (compared to the Church). Try and strive for the fruits of the Spirit instead. Gal 5 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.