Could this be a hurdle for my wife converting?

[Lampo]

My wife is Lutheran and needed to get an annulment before we were to marry in 2002. It was going to be a simple “lack of form” annulment because her previous husband was Catholic and they were not married in the Catholic Church and did not seek a dispensation or convalidation. All the tribunal needed was her ex-husband’s baptismal record. It could not be found. The priest that was helping us ultimately granted the annulment himself. We received a dispensation and convalidation and were married in a non-denominational church. The priest said our marriage is a valid, Sacramental marriage.

I remember him saying at the time that there might be a problem in the future if my wife at some point decided to convert to Catholicism. I was pretty ignorant of my faith back then and didn’t think much about it. RCIA starts this August and my wife to go through it. What could the priest have been talking about when he said that? Thanks.

 

[LilyM]

He was probably talking about the fact, by my understanding, that a priest cannot on his own authority grant an annulment - or convalidate a marriage. The annulment must be granted by the Marriage Tribunal of whichever diocese dealt with the case, under the auspices of its bishop. And as far as I know convalidation cannot be validly done without a formal declaration of nullity issued by the proper authority.

What SHOULD have happened, in the case that the gentleman’s baptismal record could not be found, is that statements should have been obtained from him and/or anyone else who might have attended his baptism and could verify that it took place (parents, godparents, family members etc). A declaration of nullity could have been issued without a certificate if such evidence was offered. Was this evidence obtained and was a formal declaration of nullity issued by the Marriage Tribunal?

Sad to say, your marriage possibly was neither valid nor sacramental, as your wife’s first marriage is presumed to be valid unless a proper decree of nullity is issued stating otherwise. Seek advice from another priest on the matter as soon as you can.

 

[Orogeny]

My wife is Lutheran and needed to get an annulment before we were to marry in 2002. It was going to be a simple “lack of form” annulment because her previous husband was Catholic and they were not married in the Catholic Church and did not seek a dispensation or convalidation. All the tribunal needed was her ex-husband’s baptismal record. It could not be found. The priest that was helping us ultimately granted the annulment himself. We received a dispensation and convalidation and were married in a non-denominational church. The priest said our marriage is a valid, Sacramental marriage.

I remember him saying at the time that there might be a problem in the future if my wife at some point decided to convert to Catholicism. I was pretty ignorant of my faith back then and didn’t think much about it. RCIA starts this August and my wife to go through it. What could the priest have been talking about when he said that? Thanks.

I’m no expert on annulments, but a priest cannot grant an annulment on his own as far as I know. It is only the tribunal that can issue such a decree. I assume that is what the priest was talking about.

Peace

tim

 

[Lampo]

He was probably talking about the fact, by my understanding, that a priest cannot on his own authority grant an annulment - or convalidate a marriage. The annulment must be granted by the Marriage Tribunal of whichever diocese dealt with the case, under the auspices of its bishop. And as far as I know convalidation cannot be validly done without a formal declaration of nullity issued by the proper authority.

What SHOULD have happened, in the case that the gentleman’s baptismal record could not be found, is that statements should have been obtained from him and/or anyone else who might have attended his baptism and could verify that it took place (parents, godparents, family members etc). I don’t know why this wasn’t done.

Sad to say, your marriage possibly was neither valid nor sacramental, as your wife’s first marriage is presumed to be valid unless a proper decree of nullity is issued stating otherwise. Seek advice from another priest on the matter as soon as you can.

Thank you. The only people present at the time of his baptism were his grandma and the priest (and him of course.) His grandma and priest both died. Not too long ago, I asked the priest that did this for us if our marriage is sacramental and valid and he said yes.

 

[kage_ar]

Call the office of the Tribunal at your Diocese, reqest a copy of the lack of form paperwork that was granted to your wife (give them the year and approx. month this happened). You should have rec’d a copy of the paperwork at that time, however it could have been misplaced.

If the Tribunal has no record, then, discuss with them how to best proceede.

 

[LilyM]

Thank you. The only people present at the time of his baptism were his grandma and the priest (and him of course.) His grandma and priest both died. Not too long ago, I asked the priest that did this for us if our marriage is sacramental and valid and he said yes.

Well sounds like a statement from him should have been obtained then, and probably from whoever else might have heard from grandma or from the priest about the details of the baptism.

Priests have been known to give wrong advice before, sad but true, and of course he’s not going to tell you he was wrong even in the event that he knows he is! Which is why you should seek advice from another priest.

 

[Lampo]

Given what the priest told me, I have been receiving the Eucharist!

 

[LilyM]

Given what the priest told me, I have been receiving the Eucharist!

You weren’t to know that there was a possibility he was wrong, and so are hardly at fault in any of this. I’m sure God won’t hold it against you in the slightest.

But do seek independent advice before receiving again :yup:

 

[msugeotech]

I had to fill out an “Affidavit of Baptism” (I think that’s the form - if not it’s close) for my Tribunal case. Since the Baptist church didn’t keep “official” certificates, my letter only stated that I made a “profession of faith”. So, all was needed were 2 witnesses to verify I was baptized, and then had the form notarized by a Notary Public. I’d check into that, like LilyM said, and get that taken care of. The rest of it sounds pretty cut and dry.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

My wife is Lutheran and needed to get an annulment before we were to marry in 2002. It was going to be a simple “lack of form” annulment because her previous husband was Catholic and they were not married in the Catholic Church and did not seek a dispensation or convalidation. All the tribunal needed was her ex-husband’s baptismal record. It could not be found. The priest that was helping us ultimately granted the annulment himself. We received a dispensation and convalidation and were married in a non-denominational church. The priest said our marriage is a valid, Sacramental marriage.

I remember him saying at the time that there might be a problem in the future if my wife at some point decided to convert to Catholicism. I was pretty ignorant of my faith back then and didn’t think much about it. RCIA starts this August and my wife to go through it. What could the priest have been talking about when he said that? Thanks.

There are certainly odd thing being posted. In our RCIA and most RCIAs if you have catholic issued marriage paperwork then that is all you would need to pass the RCIA validity (related to marriage) to receive additional sacraments. So show your " dispensation and convalidation " paperwork

btw technically it is the Bishop who controls the annulments/marriages/all sacraments etc. The priest and marriage tribunal are all under his control.

 

[msugeotech]

Right. The Bishop is the one who actually issues the Decree of Nullity once the case has been judged by the Tribunal in the first instance, then ratified by the appellate Tribunal in the second instance.

 

[tinalewis]

Two quick things to consider here on finding Baptismal records:

Check with the church where your wife’s ex-husband was Baptized. Most Protestant churches keep Baptismal records. If the church is no longer active, then check with the governing body (example: Episcopal Diocese of Southwest Florida). When I was in RCIA my Episcopal church would only issue a statement on their letterhead with my date of Baptism and Confirmation which the church secretary signed. That was good enough.

I have also hear of instances where a photocopy of a Baptism entry in the family’s Bible was sufficient. So if there was such a thing kept in the family, then that’s at least some evidence of Baptism.

My prayers are with you -

 

[crondam]

In the RCIA classes that I teach, people with marriage issues will start the classes in August and continue to attend classes until such time that their marriage issues are taken care of and they are ready to receive Sacraments at Easter Vigil. We’ve had a couple attending classes for two years while marriage issues were being resolved. So, I would assume that your wife could still attend classes, that way she would be on track to get her Sacraments. If you have any questions about the marriage, then you (as a couple) should be talking to the RCIA coordinator. Ours works with couples to work on issues needing to be resolved.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

In the RCIA classes that I teach, people with marriage issues will start the classes in August and continue to attend classes until such time that their marriage issues are taken care of and they are ready to receive Sacraments at Easter Vigil. We’ve had a couple attending classes for two years while marriage issues were being resolved. So, I would assume that your wife could still attend classes, that way she would be on track to get her Sacraments. If you have any questions about the marriage, then you (as a couple) should be talking to the RCIA coordinator. Ours works with couples to work on issues needing to be resolved.

We have that practically every year though I am not sure it applies here

 

[Lampo]

Thank you all for your valued advice. And especially your prayers. I think my wife will start RCIA in August while pursuing the annulment. She is going to meet with one of our parish priests. When she was seeking the annulment back in 2002, the Tribunal was unable to locate the baptismal record (neither was I), so our priest issued us an “internal forum” annulment, which enabled me to receive the sacraments. There is no paperwork with this kind of annulment. I am going to meet with one of our parish priests ASAP to determine whether or not I can receive the sacraments now that my wife will most likely being going through the annulment process again (this time, probably the “full form” annulment) while coming into the Church. I think there might be the issue/possibility of causing scandal in the Church if I continued to receive the Sacraments.

Here’s a question I’ve thought of: If the priest determines that I should not receive the sacraments, what do I do when/if I have mortal sin on my soul!!??

 

[msugeotech]

I believe you are able to still go to confession. Be sure to ask your priest when you talk to him.

 

[kage_ar]

Thank you all for your valued advice. And especially your prayers. I think my wife will start RCIA in August while pursuing the annulment. She is going to meet with one of our parish priests. When she was seeking the annulment back in 2002, the Tribunal was unable to locate the baptismal record (neither was I), so our priest issued us an “internal forum” annulment, which enabled me to receive the sacraments. There is no paperwork with this kind of annulment. I am going to meet with one of our parish priests ASAP to determine whether or not I can receive the sacraments now that my wife will most likely being going through the annulment process again (this time, probably the “full form” annulment) while coming into the Church. I think there might be the issue/possibility of causing scandal in the Church if I continued to receive the Sacraments.

Here’s a question I’ve thought of: If the priest determines that I should not receive the sacraments, what do I do when/if I have mortal sin on my soul!!??

In this thread

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=220249&highlight=internal+%2B+Forum

Post #3, I link to a Canon Lawyer explaining what the internal forum actually is.

 

[CalGBear]

You weren’t to know that there was a possibility he was wrong, and so are hardly at fault in any of this. I’m sure God won’t hold it against you in the slightest.

But do seek independent advice before receiving again :yup:

I agree that you would not be culpable for what you honestly believed was valid and ok. From paragraphs 1859 and 1860 of the CCC (English translation, obviously… emphasis mine):

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

Of course, now that you are aware of the issues, you cannot claim ignorance for future actions in this area. I would consult with a priest to determine what course of action you and your wife should take to remain in a state of grace.