Could use some teen boy advice!

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Our son is 17. He goes to Mass w/o question and confession fairly regularly. He busses tables at a restaurant and the folks there love him. My concern is, he seems drawn to the ‘gothic’ type kids and manner of dress. We allowed a funky hair cut, but draw the line on body piercing and black pants w/ chains (he’s asked for both). He likes to use the line, “People shouldn’t judge me or others by how we look.” What’s a good explanation that a 17 yr old might respond to? —KCT
 
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KCT:
Our son is 17. He goes to Mass w/o question and confession fairly regularly. He busses tables at a restaurant and the folks there love him. My concern is, he seems drawn to the ‘gothic’ type kids and manner of dress. We allowed a funky hair cut, but draw the line on body piercing and black pants w/ chains (he’s asked for both). He likes to use the line, “People shouldn’t judge me or others by how we look.” What’s a good explanation that a 17 yr old might respond to? —KCT
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I think it’s great your son is so faithful.

Does he dress like this when he goes to work? I suspect not. Ask him why not, if after all there’s nothing wrong with dressing like a satan worshiper. Maybe then he’ll get the message that people do judge you by how you appear.

Would he ask out on a date a girl dressed like a prostitute? Would he be ashamed to bring a girl dressed like that to Mass with him? How come – I thought how you appear doesn’t matter.
 
Maybe say something like “But people DO judge the way you look. If you dress gothic, people will assume you are into satanism or witchcraft. Do you think that is the way to show you love Jesus?” My husband has a few gothics in his classes at school(he’s a high school teacher). He says that most of them are trying to fit in somehow or they are screaming for attention. However, some DO go over the line and get caught up in the satanism aspect. The first step to getting there is looking the part. He sounds like a great kid and there’s only a little bit of high school left for him. Try to get him past this hump and I will add him to my prayer list.

God Bless

Giannawannabe
 
ok…here’s a different perspective. I’m a goth (or at least that is what people tell me). I wear black, dye my hair different colours (most recently blue), have tattoos and peircings.

I believe that the way you dress reflects your personality. It DOES NOT reflect your religion/beliefs. Sure, people may think that I worship satan. When the question arises, it gives me an opportunity to teach others about christianity. Everyone has a statement that they like to present. Mine, personally, is that I have lived through so much in my short years, that I have had to grow up rather quickly. I express this by the way I dress. Dressing in black, to me, is a comfort thing. It also expresses my interest in things that most people aren’t into…ie. death etc. I have a strong appreciation for death because I’ve seen so much of it and also because I know that it will lead me somewhere far greater than this life. I feel there is nothing wrong with being a goth if you address it according to your morals and values.

To err on the side of caution. Do not look up gothic websites to gain perspective on your son’s interests. Many times, these websites are full of profanity, blasphemy, sexuality etc. This is because a lot of goth’s are atheists/agnostics (not satanists though there are a few). Because your son has such a strong faith life, I doubt that he is influenced by these things so please do not worry. There are a few gothic christian websites. I’ve been trying to find some that are catholic based but have yet to find them.

Here’s one anyway…
christiangoth.com/

I hope this helps. There is a lot of gothic christian perspective on this site and a lot of links…there are a lot of bible quotes as well to back up their philosophy’s.
 
Cont’d…

There is a wonderful story on this website that I am going to post right now…

The Black Sheep

Once there lived a little sheep,

who went a different way. Some would say

the sheep was black, or that he went astray.

**Because he thought **so differently he soon was cast aside.

His heart was very heavy and lonely deep inside.

But then the Shepherd found him and drew him to his side.

He felt so safe to share his heart; confessing while he cried.

At last the sheep felt special - he now was fully known

by the lamb who became our Shepherd and claimed us for his own.

Anne Peterson

I think this is a great poem to describe goths and christians. It’s true that many goth’s dress the way they do for attention but it is also true that the dress a certain way (in black) so they won’t be noticed. I guess it’s easiest to say that goth’s express their pain and suffering through their art, music, dress etc. Make sure you tell your son how much you love him. If he is feeling any pain, this will bring him comfort. If he likes the look, being loved is still a great feeling.

I hope this helped. If you have any questions, PM me, though I’m not an expert, i may be able to help you gain insight on your son’s interests.
 
I don’t think I’ve ever seen an adult Goth before in the workforce. Hmmm, maybe that’s a practical issue you could bring up. Either way, it’s a phase. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a Goth older than thirty either.

As for judging people based on how they look, I don’t see a problem with it. People choose the clothes they wear and the piercings/tattoos/ hair dye they have. They obviously do this for a reason and they do it so outwardly they are obviously trying to send people a message about themselves. Like they say, they’re just trying to express themselves. The message they express to me by doing that is they are dark, rebellious, and shortsighted. Do I want to hire someone dark, rebellious, and shortsighted? Nope.

Plus, what about the sin of scandal? Giving the appearance that you are a druggy Satan worshipper is a bad thing in and of itself.
 
Genesis,

The reason why you don’t see many goths older than thirty is because the gothic lifestyle did not exsist prior to 1975 (i believe, but it’s not any younger).
Also, the reason you don’t see many goth’s in the workforce is because most goths realize that in order to find a job, one must be able to tone down their self-expression, ie. black clothing. These are known as corporate goths or weekend goths often because they are only able to be themselves fully when they are off work.
I am able to say that the world is built for one specific type of people and the rest must adapt to this.

Please do not judge goths as satan worshippers because they are only trying to show the world another perspective, other than the norm. Unfortunatley, it’s not the athiests of the world who believe that goths are satan worshippers, it’s the christians, those who are supposed to be kind and compassionate to other, those who are not supposed to judge, lest they be judged themselves.
 
Dear Sarcophogus,

Obviously you do not fit the “profile” I posted. Here’s the thing though: is it that important to dress like that if it causes so many problems in trying to get jobs or it gives people the wrong impression?

I guess I really don’t get the whole expressing oneself thing. What is someone like yourself (a good Christian dressed like that) trying to express? Why is it so important to express this? Other there alternative ways to express this? Some people say things like “this is who I am.” I for one don’t define who I am by my clothing style.

I really don’t mean to be offending, I’m just looking at it from a practical point of view. Dressing like goth style just doesn’t seem like a good idea.
 
Some people may argue the nature vs. nuture aspect of goth. Some say that a goth attitude is a natural-born occurence, that people are driven by innate instictual processes to dress, think, like things that tend to be on the darker side of life. Others will argue that these things are shaped by your experiences, your exposure, and ulitmatley, the way your life is led. I tend to believe it’s both.

As for me, I don’t ever remember saying to myself…oh I think I’ll be a goth. Rather, it started when I was about 8 or so, going clothes shopping with my mom and always wanting my mom to buy me black clothing. Not because it was goth ( i had no concept of goth at that time) but because I liked the way they looked. I guess it was initially aestetic apeal. My mom always knew I was different. I never had any friends and took great comfort in stowing away in my room for hours on end, thinking and writing. When I was 10, I had read most of Poe’s works, I read Dante’s Inferno, and was reading much of Shakespeare’s Tragedies. I don’t know why I prefered them over his comedies, I just did. I liked horror movies and preferred Bach and Beethoven over the Spice girls and dreamed of not being Britney Spears but an Opera singer.My family considered me weird and dismissed it as an over-active intelligence gone crazy. But to me, it was only natural. Of course, at one point I could have chosen to dress like everyone else, conform to society’s ideals. I tried and found it unfulfilling and just not who I was. This was my phase when I tried to fit in with the popular crowd, dyed my hair blonde, denied that I like classical books/literature and pretended to be stupid. Ironically, this unhappiness but desperate need to fit in is what got me on the road to drug addiction NOT my gothic lifestyle. Eventually, I realized that I had to be happy with who I was. Being popular was not who I was. I found it much easier to dress semi-conformatively to go to work, than it was to change my entire persona to please others. I love myself when I dress the way I do. That is what drives me to keep doing so.

I hope this was a satisfying answer to your questions.
 
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sarcophagus:
I hope this was a satisfying answer to your questions.
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Interesting. Strangely enough, my experience growing up was somewhat similar to yours. I always kind of preferred being alone. I never really had any friends until college even though I still preferred being alone (they would drag me out:p ). I never listened to popular music (to this day I have never owned a cd) or dressed in any way that would be considered trendy at all. I definitely was not popular. I just did my thing.

That being said, I guess there would have to be come down to priorities for me in this sense. As a guy, this doesn’t really apply to me, but a girl should not try and conform by dressing all slutty, as is the style these days. However, if it means getting a job or even not giving people the wrong idea about me right off the bat, I don’t see how conforming by not piercing my face, having a natural hair color, and wearing “normal” yet moral clothes would be a problem.

I definitely would never suggest for you to change your persona. This may be the roadblock I can’t get passed: I just don’t see how changing your hair color or taking out your piercings would change your persona or make you love yourself less. Shoot I love myself whether I’m in a suit, sweat pants, a bathing suit, or I just got out of the shower:D.

I think I’ve read your posts before, given your intelligence and the fact that you are getting yourself to Mass and quitting drugs, there is reason enough to love yourself right there!🙂
 
Growing up, girls face tremendous amounts of pressure to fit into the latest trends and fads. This includes weight, etc. This may or may not have been the case when you were growing up, but it was when i was. It just felt so natural for me to dress the way I do that when I tried to change it, it made me depressed. It’s a very hard thing to discuss because each person’s reasons and experiences with goth are different. I change my hair colour to lift some of the boredom I feel. Not to be conceded, but I have a very high IQ…if something isn’t challenging me, I get so bored it isn’t even funny, so I deal by dying my hair…strange, yes, but it works. I like piercings because I think they look good and I have tattoos because they express a part of my being in art form.

I can’t claim that every body’s reasons are the same as mine cause chances are they arent.
 
I kind of figured this might be something that’s much different from the female perspective.

I guess I just don’t get it. Hey, if you ever run out of hair colors, you could try some challenging crossword puzzles to keep you busy. 😃
 
Use the weight of money.

He is 17 and chances are poor if he is busing tables.

Bad haircuts, clothing, piercings etc. cost $$$$$

College, Books, entertainment, dates, cars, car insurance, car maintenance, essentials(shampoo,razors…) etc. cost $$$$

What gives here? You - Parents? Why does your son think he has money to buy bad haircuts, clothing, piercings etc.

How much of a margin have you given him?

It is time to put a squeeze on him.

Never mind if you spend your money foolishly but it would help if you didn’t. When he can afford all of his own essentials costs which I am assuming you pay for at this time then he has earned the margin to do whatever he wants. By then he will probably have a son or daughter of his own. 😃
 
I think as long as he’s not wearing shirts with obsenities or shirts that promote music bands that associated with dark and /or satanic practices that I wouldn’t make an issue out of it. I think life experience will teach it’s own lessons. If you son is strong in his faith it may even give him an opportunity to be a witness to some teens that are lost and never be comfortable sharing things of faith with the more “straight-laced” kids.

In my highschool back in the late 80’s Goth was just becoming popular and most of us didn’t even have a name for it yet. I leaned more toward the “burn-out” look which is considerably more problamatic than the what most Goths wear. (As in tight-clothing, short skirts.) I wore a leather jacket summer, winter, fall or spring and heavy black eye-liner. My boyfriend (now my husband) and I had matching dog chains around our necks.
I had “goths” is my art class that were incredibly talented. They were the nicest “clique” is school. They talked with anyone, never were involved in any of the violent fights that broke out between groups like “Jocks” “preps” gangs of ethnic groups such as albanians and yugoslavians, and the more radical white supremist leaning burn-outs. (if you think this was some inner-city school-it wasn’t, actually and upper middle class suburb). None of them remotely gave off the impression they were in anyway satanic.
Now ofcourse I’m regular old mom, (the dog chain put away in a memory box), and hubby is just regular guy. His black combat boots with metal plating and spikes still reside in our closet and come out once a year for halloween when he takes our daughter trick or treating.
Youth have an idealism that we often lose when we become adults. Jesus associated with all kinds of people not just those that gave the appearance of being upright. Your son will most likely grow out of his idealism, and I’m not sure that’s a thing to look forwared to.
 
This is exactly the type of person that my husband (the high school teacher) says tend to become goths. Someone who doesn’t quite fit in and does not have many friends. By becoming goth, a person then actually becomes part of a “clique”, thereby fitting in somewhere. Even though goths say that they want to express their individuality, when they become goths they are actually conforming with a certain segment of the school population.
KCT, does your son fit in at school? Does he have many friends? Just wondering if this could be part of the reason he’s attracted to the gothic type kids.
I’m not saying that gothics are not nice kids, but I think that there is some type of problem or need being expressed by conforming with the gothic lifestyle.
Just my opinion.
God Bless
Giannawannabe
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sarcophagus:
Some people may argue the nature vs. nuture aspect of goth. Some say that a goth attitude is a natural-born occurence, that people are driven by innate instictual processes to dress, think, like things that tend to be on the darker side of life. Others will argue that these things are shaped by your experiences, your exposure, and ulitmatley, the way your life is led. I tend to believe it’s both.

As for me, I don’t ever remember saying to myself…oh I think I’ll be a goth. Rather, it started when I was about 8 or so, going clothes shopping with my mom and always wanting my mom to buy me black clothing. Not because it was goth ( i had no concept of goth at that time) but because I liked the way they looked. I guess it was initially aestetic apeal. My mom always knew I was different. I never had any friends and took great comfort in stowing away in my room for hours on end, thinking and writing. When I was 10, I had read most of Poe’s works, I read Dante’s Inferno, and was reading much of Shakespeare’s Tragedies. I don’t know why I prefered them over his comedies, I just did. I liked horror movies and preferred Bach and Beethoven over the Spice girls and dreamed of not being Britney Spears but an Opera singer.My family considered me weird and dismissed it as an over-active intelligence gone crazy. But to me, it was only natural. Of course, at one point I could have chosen to dress like everyone else, conform to society’s ideals. I tried and found it unfulfilling and just not who I was. This was my phase when I tried to fit in with the popular crowd, dyed my hair blonde, denied that I like classical books/literature and pretended to be stupid. Ironically, this unhappiness but desperate need to fit in is what got me on the road to drug addiction NOT my gothic lifestyle. Eventually, I realized that I had to be happy with who I was. Being popular was not who I was. I found it much easier to dress semi-conformatively to go to work, than it was to change my entire persona to please others. I love myself when I dress the way I do. That is what drives me to keep doing so.

I hope this was a satisfying answer to your questions.
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Binney:
Never mind if you spend your money foolishly but it would help if you didn’t. When he can afford all of his own essentials costs which I am assuming you pay for at this time then he has earned the margin to do whatever he wants. 😃
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He makes good tips and has been buying most of his own clothes since he started working at 15. (he wanted to work at 15, we didn’t tell him he had to) Because he earns his own money, we give him some leeway in spending it. He pays his share of the car insurance and tithes 10%. Other than some video games and clothes, he saves most of his money. He’s already put a deposit on his trip to World Youth Day and will pay for the whole trip himself. —KCT
 
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KCT:
He likes to use the line, “People shouldn’t judge me or others by how we look.” What’s a good explanation that a 17 yr old might respond to? —KCT
Click to expand...
I think this remark is one of the last of several used by kids growing up to complain that the world is not perfectly just and fair. It’s a sign of maturity when they begin to accept this (as I bet your son has in many other areas).

People have to judge others by the way they look much of the time; it’s how you know who to talk to in the store. We dress one way to go to work, one to mow the grass, and one to go to church because we recognize that how we look means something to ourselves and to other people. It’s how it is.

After you acknowledge that it is unjust, point out that it’s a waste to moon over the way things ought to be. Either deal with the way they are, or work on changing them.
 
This is one of the best arguments for school uniforms. If everyone dresses the same, no one is an outcast because of it. No one feels they need to dress one way or another to fit in various cliques.

Instead, you get cast out by the traditional standard, how bad you are at dodgeball:crying: . I could nail people, but I couldn’t dodge for the life of me which meant I was out in a matter of seconds and my cannon arm went unused. Life is so not fair:nope: .
 
To be honest I think you need to accept it, and accept what he is interested in. As he delves into the secular world, you need to show how he can bring his religion into it. Better to show him now, then for him try to figure it out himself and make a mistake. So get interested in that theme, and discuss and find boundries.

I remember when Christain rock just started to come out. People were agased by it. But it has done wonders the youth, it allows them to bring there religous lives into there secular lives.

Just my $.02
 
If he really doesn’t think people should judge him by the way he looks, then why is it important to him to take on a certain look? Will his own friends judge him if he looks too “establishment” as a result of pleasing a paying employer?

Your son thinks he is being a non-conformist. He is not. He is a conforming to a group where he feels safe and accepted. Again, if he doesn’t feel accepted by his peers unless he dresses like them, then they are the ones with the problem. It takes more self-confidence to dress differently than those he hangs with, than to dress differently than an employer wishes he would. He is afraid not to conform.

He might try to say he just finds multiple piercings attractive or manly or whatever. Bull. Dollars to donuts say it’s all about fitting in with the crowd.

Alan
 
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