Council gave no basis for dissent

[curlycool89]

The Second Vatican Council, at least in the Western world, was followed by decades of dissension from authoritative Catholic teaching, a phenomena that did much to weaken the Church’s evangelizing mission.

Many are the reasons for this widespread dissent, not the least of which was the fact that Vatican II coincided with a period of massive cultural upheaval in the West.

However, it cannot be truthfully said the council’s teachings were a counsel to the faithful to fashion the will of God as they see fit. Some took what Vatican II said about the sense of the faithful, about conscience and about religious liberty as opening the door for the faithful to reject or select only some Church teachings. In fact, that is not the case.

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This article appeared in our local diocesan paper, and I think it gives a good example of the right interpretation of Vatican II, especially for today’s Catholics.

 

[evener]

As a traditionalist, I believe the Vatican ll documents are beautiful and inspired, and have no problem at all with them, but what was done in the council’s name, rightly or wrongly, I regret having had to live through. Namely, bishops, priests and religious using it as justification for injecting their innovations into religious life, but especially what was done to our liturgy.
Tearing out our altar rails, putting the tabernacle in some broom closet, nodding towards the altar instead of genuflecting towards the tabernacle, if He was left in His own house, Communion in the hand, requiring all to remain standing through and after Communion. What’s next, hold hands and grin at each other? It was like one gift after another given to the freemasons. Is it any wonder in some areas 70% of catholics doubt the real presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
The documents can easily stand on their own. The wrecking ball of innovations? I hope not.

 

[Pulvis]

The Second Vatican Council, at least in the Western world, was followed by decades of dissension from authoritative Catholic teaching, a phenomena that did much to weaken the Church’s evangelizing mission.

Many are the reasons for this widespread dissent, not the least of which was the fact that Vatican II coincided with a period of massive cultural upheaval in the West.

However, it cannot be truthfully said the council’s teachings were a counsel to the faithful to fashion the will of God as they see fit. Some took what Vatican II said about the sense of the faithful, about conscience and about religious liberty as opening the door for the faithful to reject or select only some Church teachings. In fact, that is not the case.

Read more

This article appeared in our local diocesan paper, and I think it gives a good example of the right interpretation of Vatican II, especially for today’s Catholics.

Walter +Cardinal Kasper; Who was a Pereti at V-II, and a student of Hans Kung:
“In many places, [the Council Fathers] had to find compromise formulas, in which, often, the positions of the majority are located immediately next to those of the minority, designed to delimit them. Thus, the conciliar texts themselves have a huge potential for conflict, open the door to a selective reception in either direction.”

“For most Catholics, the developments put in motion by the council are part of the church’s daily life. But what they are experiencing is not the great new beginning nor the springtime of the church, which were expected at that time, but rather a church that has a wintry look, and shows clear signs of crisis.”

“For those who know the story of the twenty councils recognized as ecumenical, this [the state of confusion] will not be a surprise. The post-conciliar times were almost always turbulent. The [Second] Vatican, however, is a special case.” April 2013

Those attendees at the Council who desired a certain “liberation” of The Church did affect the final documents. To think otherwise is to deny a large body of factual, documentable evidence. The refusal on the part of some, especially in the Higher positions of The Church to acknowledge this publicly, has allowed the “spirit of V-II” crowd to infect, and affect their will on The Church. It is well past time to admit that the Emperor has no clothes.

 

[manualman]

Pulvis, Don’t you think that ALL councils have had their share of Judases in attendance (and voting)? I’m pretty sure human nature has been darn near the same since Adam wiped the apple juice off his chin.

The fact that certain dissenters were present and even that they had an effect on the council in no way undermine’s God’s sovereignty over the results of it. It’s an ecumenical council. Either Ecumenical Councils are divinely protected against error or they’re not. Either Vatican II is as reliable as Trent or neither are anything more than the sum of wisdom of their participants (and God help us).

 

[Pulvis]

Pulvis, Don’t you think that ALL councils have had their share of Judases in attendance (and voting)? I’m pretty sure human nature has been darn near the same since Adam wiped the apple juice off his chin.

Absolutely agree.

The fact that certain dissenters were present and even that they had an effect on the council in no way undermines God’s sovereignty over the results of it. It’s an ecumenical council. Either Ecumenical Councils are divinely protected against error or they’re not. Either Vatican II is as reliable as Trent or neither are anything more than the sum of wisdom of their participants (and God help us).

I would disagree with your assessment as to the amount of influence our Lord has in the actions of Councils. Historically, especially in the period of the Old Testament, the Jews made demands of God and His Priests which went counter to His desires, but were relented to. Think the Jewish desire for a King. The History of The Church has shown that numerous times less than Holy men have risen to power within the Church, that they have caused scandal among the Faithful, and yet Our Lord’s promise has held firm.
I have no doubt that this current crisis will solve itself the same way.
In the Church, prior to this day, very few Catholics outside of Rome were aware of the goings on. Now with our technology, we have almost instant access to every thought. And we have access to the documents, encyclicals and letters from many previous Popes, Councils and Doctors of the Church to give us insight into, and awareness of what was done correctly, and what was done wrong. And how the wrongs were corrected.
In the final analysis, Councils are formed of Men, Ordained yes, but men none the less. And as we all have free will, men can, and do, sometimes make decisions which are influenced by personal agendas and prejudices.
Just as we have witnessed in the last 50 years, some in the Priesthood have not taken their Vows seriously, and some have no qualm whatsoever in using the ambo to espouse agendas in direct opposition to Church teaching. It happens. All we can do is protect ourselves with a complete knowledge of the Faith, Prayers, Fasting, Penance.

"[18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. "

and

“[18] And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. [19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.”

Scripture from drbo.org/index.htm

I believe this!

 

[Robert_Bay]

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