Council of Trent Help, Por Favor

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Hey, if anyone’s got the time, I’d love for some help for my responses to these arguments a protestant friend of mine has with these Canons from the Council of Trent concerning faith and works. I am a very novice apologist, and have given some pretty petty answers. (I have taken out all the Canons that I’ve answered soundly. These are the ones where I am totally unsure of.) I would love if anyone could just look at one or two of these and suggest a a really good response, especially one backed up by scripture. This guy is really inteested in the Faith and is a lot more Biblically sound than I. I know I (or we) can get him if the right information is presented to him. Thank you so much for even looking at this lengthy post. I’d appreciate any and all help I could get. His responses are in ] and mine are in ( ).

Thank you guys so much and God bless!!👍

CANON X.-If any one saith… that it is by that justice (whereby He merited for us to be justified) itself that they are formally just; let him be anathema.

[Titus 3:4-8, illustrates wonderfully how we merit nothing, but rather it is imparted or imputed to us, which absolutely results in the persevering to good works!]

(I agree. We do merit nothing. It is a gift form God freely given and there’s nothing we could have done to have gotten it. However, we are in possession of that gift, and any gift can be neglected or violated. We have to be active in love and the Christian life to keep that gift sparkling new)

CANON XI.-If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God; let him be anathema.

[My only objection to this canon is that the “grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost” is not necessary for justification, but is rather a necessary effect of justification. The “Perseverance of the Saints” as Reformed theology puts it is necessary to prove justification, but is not part of justification. This is a weighty distinction as our will co-operating with the Holy Spirit (by His Grace alone) after we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit is sanctification, for which we will be glorified (Romans 8). If we are to attribute this to our justification, then we actually do “earn” a portion of our salvation through the works of penance.]

(Over my head, man. I read it 1000 times. Still don’t get it)

CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.
(Notice the word merely. We do believe works are fruits of faith indeed. We just go beyond that. Not only is works or love a fruit of faith, but just as I explained in the paper, is also a foundation of salvation.)

**CANON XXVII.-If any one saith, that there is no mortal sin but that of infidelity; or, that grace once received is not lost by any other sin, however grievous and enormous, save by that of infidelity ; let him be anathema. **

[Based on afore mentioned scripture, we are not “kept in” justification by our works, nor can we “fall out” of justification by our sins. They may be evidence which testifies to our unregenerate state, but they do not produce saving grace. I am curious as to where they draw these inclinations from the Holy Scriptures.]

(Above my head)

CANON XXX.-If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema.

[Where do they find this in Holy Writ? Making up for sins is quite contrary and opposed to anything the Bible teaches. Also 2 Corinthians 5:8 makes this impossible unless Christ is in purgatory.]

(I don’t know. But let me ask you this: Why would they make the claim if they couldn’t back it up?)

CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.

[What is a “good merit”?]

(Over my head, man. That is for a priest. )*
 
Hola. I might be able to come back in a bit to comment, but in case I don’t, I thought you might be interested in checking out this debate, where Father Pacwa explained quite clearly the Catholic doctrine of justification by faith and works:

(If it doesn’t show, just go to: youtube.com/watch?v=v0JueyifsXA)

I think the actual debate starts up until the third video, but I’m not sure; you might want to check them all out anyway.
 
Loved_Disciple said:
Hola. I might be able to come back in a bit to comment, but in case I don’t, I thought you might be interested in checking out this debate, where Father Pacwa explained quite clearly the Catholic doctrine of justification by faith and works:

(If it doesn’t show, just go to: youtube.com/watch?v=v0JueyifsXA)

I think the actual debate starts up until the third video, but I’m not sure; you might want to check them all out anyway.
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Hey, thanks! Will totally use this 🙂
 
These are just brief comments. In order to understand the Catholic doctrine more fully you need to read good material on the subject. There’s lots available online. You might also want to consider good books, like Robert Sungenis’ Not by Faith Alone (from what I’ve heard it’s pretty good and should clarify all your doubts concerning this doctrine).
Binto said:
CANON X.-If any one saith… that it is by that justice (whereby He merited for us to be justified) itself that they are formally just; let him be anathema.

[Titus 3:4-8, illustrates wonderfully how we merit nothing, but rather it is imparted or imputed to us, which absolutely results in the persevering to good works!]

(I agree. We do merit nothing. It is a gift form God freely given and there’s nothing we could have done to have gotten it. However, we are in possession of that gift, and any gift can be neglected or violated. We have to be active in love and the Christian life to keep that gift sparkling new)
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Well, we surely can’t merit the initial grace. That is the “nothing” you can agree to, and that is solid Catholic teaching. But once we’re in that state of grace we’re enabled by God, through faith and by our constantly being open to His grace (our only possible merit), to actually become fully just persons by growing in the good works of charity God expects us to produce.

Let’s now check out the passage brought to you:

4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

So far it’s easy to conclude that not only was it NOT thanks to anyone’s good works that the Word of God became man, died and resurrected from the death; but rather that BECAUSE of how lost we were without His grace did we need for God to come to our rescue.

Then it reads:

7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Surely we’re justified by his grace. That’s how we’re made heirs of eternal life. The understanding of how that happens is what differentiates protestants and Catholics.

8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

There it is. We have to be careful to keep doing good works, since they’re profitable and good, not merely automatic signs of our justification.
Binto said:
CANON XI.-If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God; let him be anathema.

[My only objection to this canon is that the “grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost” is not necessary for justification, but is rather a necessary effect of justification. The “Perseverance of the Saints” as Reformed theology puts it is necessary to prove justification, but is not part of justification. This is a weighty distinction as our will co-operating with the Holy Spirit (by His Grace alone) after we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit is sanctification, for which we will be glorified (Romans 8). If we are to attribute this to our justification, then we actually do “earn” a portion of our salvation through the works of penance.]

(Over my head, man. I read it 1000 times. Still don’t get it)
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Justification and sanctification are inseparable. One can’t enter heaven being fully justified and partially sanctified, since nothing truly unclean will enter heaven (see Ap 21:27).

Again, your friend is arguing that all that is necessary for justification itself is faith, not a single work. You might want to bring up to him what kind of faith exactly is that which counts:

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. (Gal 5:6)

If that faith is not worked out in acts of charity (whichever these may be), it avails of nothing. And that working out of faith by good works is ONLY possible thanks to the infusion of God’s grace in our hearts.
Binto said:
CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.
(Notice the word merely. We do believe works are fruits of faith indeed. We just go beyond that. Not only is works or love a fruit of faith, but just as I explained in the paper, is also a foundation of salvation.)*
Jesus clearly stated that our righteousness has to exceed that of the pharisees and scribes; otherwise we won’t enter the kingdom of heaven (see Mt 5:20). So, if it can be exceeded, it can also be matched and even not met.

And we don’t need to prove anyone our sanctification. As a matter of fact we’re better off doing good works in secret, for our Father who sees them in secret will reward us (see Mt 6).

A little more on my next post.
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Binto said:
**CANON XXVII.-If any one saith, that there is no mortal sin but that of infidelity; or, that grace once received is not lost by any other sin, however grievous and enormous, save by that of infidelity ; let him be anathema. **

[Based on afore mentioned scripture, we are not “kept in” justification by our works, nor can we “fall out” of justification by our sins. They may be evidence which testifies to our unregenerate state, but they do not produce saving grace. I am curious as to where they draw these inclinations from the Holy Scriptures.]

(Above my head)
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This is an easy one. I’ll give you two proofs that Christians (not only pagans) are able to commit sins so serious that will make them enter into a state of spiritual death:

If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. (1 John 5:16)

(So a brother in the faith can commit a variety of sins, ranging from not deadly to deadly ones.)

Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. (James 5:19-20)

(This passage lays it out clearly: even believers can fall from the truth and enter into spiritual death. As a bonus it shows that whoever helps him convert back shall “hide” a multitude of sins from the sight of God.)

And there are other passages you can quote, but these two are pretty clear and strong.
Binto said:
CANON XXX.-If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema.

[Where do they find this in Holy Writ? Making up for sins is quite contrary and opposed to anything the Bible teaches. Also 2 Corinthians 5:8 makes this impossible unless Christ is in purgatory.]

(I don’t know. But let me ask you this: Why would they make the claim if they couldn’t back it up?)
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This has a pretty strong Scriptural ground as well. You have to study the Catholic doctrine of temporal punishment. You’ll realize that not only does Purgatory exist thanks to the mercy of God and the Sacrifice of our Lord, but it is precisely thanks to that that we believe it.

Just briefly I refer you to 2 Sam 11 and 12, the case of king David, who committed a grave sin by pretty much having a beautiful woman’s husband killed so he could have her. He fully received God’s forgiveness, yet he had to suffer a temporal punishment for his sin: the death of their first child (2 Sam 12:13-14) inspite of king David fasting and praying for the little one’s life to be spared.

Another case would be on Numbers 14:13-23, where Moses asks God for mercy for the israelites, and they do receive it; however they were not allowed to see the promised land.
Binto said:
CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.

[What is a “good merit”?]

(Over my head, man. That is for a priest. )
Click to expand...
In this context a “good merit” is simply our free will (which is a gift of God) that we are voluntarily joining with Gods grace so that He can do His full work in our lives, which is not only saving us, but using us to love and save others.

Many protestants deny that we do anything of our own to cooperate for salvation – not even using our given free will. This is as wrong as saying that we’re pre-programmed, wireless puppets that are merely doing what we’re supposed to be doing.

I hope you can meditate on how sound and logical our doctrine really is. If you can explain it in a charitable way, you may become an instrument of God to bring someone home. And yes, that can be a good merit of yours. 😃
 
My friend, this is beautiful. Thank you so much for taking the time to respond. I appreciate it so much!
 
I mean seriously, I cannot thank you enough! I am learning so much from this! This sure will quench his questions about this. Thank you!
 
Glad to help. Should you have any more questions, hopefully here in the forum you’ll get good answers.

Hasta luego.
 
I really appreciate reading the responses as well. Much more eloquent than anything I could have come up with own my own. Thank you for taking the time to formulate all of them 🙂
 
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