Counsel: "Divorce and the Scarlet 'D': 3 Tips to Improve Self-Esteem."
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Robert_Sock
Guest
Death to the self. Self esteem is evil, and condemned by many saints. We need to kill the lower-ordered self so a higher-ordered self (perfectly humble) may emerge.
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Elizium23
Guest
Self-esteem is evil? Wow, I have never heard that one before. [citation needed]
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Robert_Sock
Guest
I WILL speak to my Lord, I who am but dust and ashes. If I consider myself anything more than this, behold You stand against me, and my sins bear witness to the truth which I cannot contradict. If I abase myself, however, if I humble myself to nothingness, if I shrink from all self-esteem and account myself as the dust which I am, Your grace will favor me, Your light will enshroud my heart, and all self-esteem, no matter how little, will sink in the depths of my nothingness to perish forever.
-The Imitation of Christ
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Elizium23
Guest
Not a Magisterial document.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
Come on, you did not ask for a Magisterial document and never did I claim that it was one. Since when are posts necessarily Magisterial? Here at CAF, we often post comments from a wide variety of sources, and I’m fond of The Imitation of Christ.
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Elizium23
Guest
You made the bold assertion that “self-esteem is evil, and condemned by many saints.” This naturally implies that there is Church teaching to that effect. So far, the only evidence you have offered is one paragraph from a non-saint. Your assertion flies 8n the face of Christ’s command to us, “Love your neighbor as yourself”, which presupposes self-esteem.
Vainglory is one of the Seven Deadly Sins, but we are not talking about vainglory but simple self-esteem here.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
Let’s turn this around: You show me where the Church and Saints uphold self-esteem as something of religious value. It’s esteem that we need, not self-esteem. Esteem towards others and esteem of religion itself.
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Elizium23
Guest
I found this article edifying. Catholic.net, which I have not used before, is rated “green” (excellent) by Catholic Culture website reviews.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
Thank you for that article. I’m a research psychologist and have been against the “self” for a long time, at odds with the field of psychology.
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Goya
Guest
^^^"…love your neighbor as yourself". --Christ Jesus
If we do not esteem ourselves, let alone if we disdain ourselves, then the love we have to offer to our neighbors, would be of little value.
That said, I get what Mr. Spock is saying. Many church fathers and saints emphasize the importance of ‘dying to self’.
Both of y’all are right; yet both are saying things that appear to be patently contradictory.
Seems we have something of a paradox here. We must die to self, and esteem ourselves minimally, while loving ourselves, and loving the gift of life that the Lord has blessed us with, that we may love our neighbors, meaningfully.
Imagine that…a paradox…in Christianity.
If we do not esteem ourselves, let alone if we disdain ourselves, then the love we have to offer to our neighbors, would be of little value.
That said, I get what Mr. Spock is saying. Many church fathers and saints emphasize the importance of ‘dying to self’.
Both of y’all are right; yet both are saying things that appear to be patently contradictory.
Seems we have something of a paradox here. We must die to self, and esteem ourselves minimally, while loving ourselves, and loving the gift of life that the Lord has blessed us with, that we may love our neighbors, meaningfully.
Imagine that…a paradox…in Christianity.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
The lower-ordered “self” is impure and must be mortified. After the mortification, which may have to wait until our purification in Purgatory, gives rise to a higher-ordered “self” which is qualitatively and quantitatively superior to the old “self.” God is LOVE, and so too our innermost being must become pure LOVE (with no room for any sort of pride, including self-esteem).^^^"…love your neighbor as yourself". --Christ Jesus
If we do not esteem ourselves, let alone if we disdain ourselves, then the love we have to offer to our neighbors, would be of little value.
That said, I get what Mr. Spock is saying. Many church fathers and saints emphasize the importance of ‘dying to self’.
Both of y’all are right; yet both are saying things that appear to be patently contradictory.
Seems we have something of a paradox here. We must die to self, and esteem ourselves minimally, while loving ourselves, and loving the gift of life that the Lord has blessed us with, that we may love our neighbors, meaningfully.
Imagine that…a paradox…in Christianity.
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Elizium23
Guest
My initial disbelief just goes to show you how deeply ingrained in our consciousness the pernicious lies of Freud and Jung have become. The intent of psychotherapy was to destroy the Church through co-opting the function of the Sacrament of Penance. And look how well it has done toward that goal. I know a priest who is very wary of psychiatry and the associated pharmaceuticals that so often attempt to replace the good-faith practice of religion. And I am just as wary of psychology and psychotherapy as an attempt to replace it as well. I think anything good that can be accomplished through psychotherapy can equally be done through frequenting the Sacrament of Penance as well as receiving competent spiritual direction.
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Goya
Guest
I think we tread a fine line in dealing with the concept of ‘self-esteem’–why I referred to it as a paradox. We have a tension created by conflicting forces pulling us in opposite directions.
I understand the word “self-esteem” itself was coined by Freud. And I understand that Freud wasn’t exactly Catholic friendly. But it does not necessarily follow that any or all concepts he dealt with or even championed, would therefore be anti-Catholic, or even un-Catholic.
I think there is a fine line to be tread wrt self-esteem–we must avoid the trappings of pride, yet we must also avoid the subscribing to the “Culture of Death.”
Yes, self-esteem may lead to egoism, which in turn could lead to narcissism…
…and self-esteem certainly seems to place the self at a central focal point…but that would be a mis-application of self-esteem according to Catholic theology, rather than a rendering of self-esteem as patently inconsistent with Catholic teaching.
The counter-point illustrates this point. For if we esteem ourselves not at all, how can we also pretend to value life itself?
If we place no value on our own lives, what value can we pretend to place on anyone else’s?
If we esteem ourselves nothing…what love can we pretend to give?
Christ himself established the bench mark of the love we are to give to others, as the love we have for ourselves. To diminish that value to absolute nothing…to zero…is to then take Christ’s words as meaning–give your neighbor nothing; love him nothing–for you are nothing, and you are therefore to love yourself, nothing.
On the flip side, Christianity is very much developed on the notion of denying the self, self-sacrifice, surrender of the will, and such.
Hence I maintain it is a paradox on its face–and the key to resolving the paradox, is in what the esteem of self is plugged into.
If God—then it is right ordered;
If virtually anything else…then wrongly ordered, but to differing degrees (e.g.–one who’s self-esteem is plugged into serving and loving others, would still be wrongly ordered in so much as it fails to yield primacy to God…yet far less wrongly ordered, than self-esteem plugged into wealth, fame, how others esteem them, and such worldly concerns).
But the bottom line is that ‘self-esteem’ is not inherently wrong; it just presents something of a challenge in negotiating it, and reconciling it to Catholic teaching.
JMHO/FWIW.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
Self-esteem takes our positive attributes and ascribes them to the self, when in fact they are from God. We need to transform the esteem that is focused inwardly and experience the esteem outwardly. To hold others in high esteem, for example, knowing that they are a product of God just like we are a product of God.
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Goya
Guest
IMHO, that would be a mis-application of ‘self-esteem’.
That is what I was alluding to above, in terms of orientation of the valuation of one’s self.
What you are describing, to me, would be disoriented self-esteem, detached from God centeredness. And it is that disorientation that leads to self-centeredness, selfishness, and narcissism–not the ‘self esteem’ itself.
Look at the last sentence you wrote:
To hold others in high esteem, for example, knowing that they are a product of God just like we are a product of God
How can you not esteem yourself, while at the same time acknowledging that you are a product of God? Made in His image?
And how can you pretend to value and esteem others, when here, you plug the very value of that esteem, to what you should rightly value in yourself???
That illustrates the point I was making about when Christ admonished us to “…love your neighbor as yourself”.
Again, that is Christ, admonishing us to love others according to our love for ourselves; to esteem others, according to our own estimation of ourselves. To nullify the latter (or render it an evil), is to render the former, meaningless. For if we do not esteem and/or love ourselves…then the love and estimation we would yield to our neighbors, according to Christ’s admonition…would be meaningless, valueless, worthless, and for naught.
IOW: Surely Christ did not admonish us to yield farce to our neighbors, in the guise of love.
The bottom line is that self-esteem is a positive, when we esteem ourselves for what the Lord esteems us for, for His love, and for how we can love and serve Him.
Self-esteem becomes dis-oriented, and a negative, when we lose sight of that (and worse still, when we seek the value of our own estimation on things that are self oriented, or ‘pleasure oriented’, or such).
But self-esteem is not inherently evil.
JMHO.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
I believe this all has to do with one’s spiritual level and the path one is currently on. I would be interested if you could find a Church document or saint who explicitly endorse self-esteem.
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Goya
Guest
IOANNES PAULUS PP. II
EVANGELIUM VITAE
To the Bishops
Priests and Deacons
Men and Women religious
lay Faithful
and all People of Good Will
on the Value and Inviolability
of Human Life
*1. The Gospel of life is at the heart of Jesus’ message. Lovingly received day after day by the Church, it is to be preached with dauntless fidelity as “good news” to the people of every age and culture.
At the dawn of salvation, it is the Birth of a Child which is proclaimed as joyful news: “I bring you good news of a great joy which will come to all the people; for to you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, who is Christ the Lord” (Lk 2:10-11). The source of this “great joy” is the Birth of the Saviour; but Christmas also reveals the full meaning of every human birth, and the joy which accompanies the Birth of the Messiah is thus seen to be the foundation and fulfilment of joy at every child born into the world (cf. Jn 16:21).
When he presents the heart of his redemptive mission, Jesus says: “I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly” (Jn 10:10). In truth, he is referring to that “new” and “eternal” life which consists in communion with the Father, to which every person is freely called in the Son by the power of the Sanctifying Spirit. It is precisely in this “life” that all the aspects and stages of human life achieve their full significance.
**The incomparable worth of the human person **
- Man is called to a fullness of life which far exceeds the dimensions of his earthly existence, because it consists in sharing the very life of God. The loftiness of this supernatural vocation reveals the greatness and the inestimable value of human life even in its temporal phase. Life in time, in fact, is the fundamental condition, the initial stage and an integral part of the entire unified process of human existence. It is a process which, unexpectedly and undeservedly, is enlightened by the promise and renewed by the gift of divine life, which will reach its full realization in eternity (cf. 1 Jn 3:1-2). At the same time, it is precisely this supernatural calling which highlights the relative character of each individual’s earthly life. After all, life on earth is not an “ultimate” but a “penultimate” reality; even so, it remains a sacred reality entrusted to us, to be preserved with a sense of responsibility and brought to perfection in love and in the gift of ourselves to God and to our brothers and sisters.
In a special way, believers in Christ must defend and promote this right, aware as they are of the wonderful truth recalled by the Second Vatican Council: “By his incarnation the Son of God has united himself in some fashion with every human being”.2 This saving event reveals to humanity not only the boundless love of God who “so loved the world that he gave his only Son” (Jn 3:16), but also the incomparable value of every human person.
The Church, faithfully contemplating the mystery of the Redemption, acknowledges this value with ever new wonder.3 She feels called to proclaim to the people of all times this “Gospel”, the source of invincible hope and true joy for every period of history.** The Gospel of God’s love for man, the Gospel of the dignity of the person and the Gospel of life** are a single and indivisible Gospel.
For this reason, man-living man-represents the primary and fundamental way for the Church. 4
…
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Goya
Guest
[cont’d]
“You shall love your neighbour as yourself” (Lk 10:27):“promote” life
75.** God’s commandments teach us the way of life. The negative moral precepts, which declare that the choice of certain actions is morally unacceptable, have an absolute value for human freedom: they are valid always and everywhere, without exception. They make it clear that the choice of certain ways of acting is radically incompatible with the love of God and with the dignity of the person created in his image.** Such choices cannot be redeemed by the goodness of any intention or of any consequence; they are irrevocably opposed to the bond between persons; they contradict the fundamental decision to direct one’s life to God. 99
I…
It is therefore a service of love which we are all committed to ensure to our neighbour, that his or her life may be always defended and promoted, especially when it is weak or threatened. It is not only a personal but a social concern which we must all foster: a concern to make unconditional respect for human life the foundation of a renewed society.
We are asked to love and honour the life of every man and woman and to work with perseverance and courage so that our time, marked by all too many signs of death, may at last witness the establishment of a new culture of life, the fruit of the culture of truth and of love.
w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031995_evangelium-vitae.html
I see no express exclusions for estimation of self.
“Self-denial” refers to denial of pleasure for oneself. It refers to subordinating the desires of the self, for the self, not denial of self, for God.
Rather commitment of self for God, and to God, by serving and loving others, for God, is the ‘self-denial’ that we are called to.
IMHO, you are subscribing to Freud’s conception of ‘self esteem’, when you impute his thoughts, to the patent concept of estimation of one’s self, which may, for the sake of avoiding confusion, perhaps be better described as gratitude for the gift of life.
For what is the ‘self’, but life itself?
Denying oneself for its own sake, is as worthless as doing good deeds for the praise one receives from the direct beneficiaries of those deeds.
Instead what we are called to do, is to ‘deny the self’, that God may use that same self (i.e.–us) according to His Holy Will. Not to deny the self, for its own sake. That would be no different than the ‘nirvana’ of the Buddhists.
We are called to the fulfillment of life–to maximize our talents (God’s gifts to us), that our gift of ourselves back to God (our efforts, approaching of our potential, and service to Him and His Holy Will), may be a worthy gift, born of gratitude for the wonderful gift that it is; not rendering it a worthless shell, for the sake of ‘self-denial’, and intentional suffering.
Seems to me that Christ communicated as much through His parable of the talents.
jmho/fwiw.
“You shall love your neighbour as yourself” (Lk 10:27):“promote” life
75.** God’s commandments teach us the way of life. The negative moral precepts, which declare that the choice of certain actions is morally unacceptable, have an absolute value for human freedom: they are valid always and everywhere, without exception. They make it clear that the choice of certain ways of acting is radically incompatible with the love of God and with the dignity of the person created in his image.** Such choices cannot be redeemed by the goodness of any intention or of any consequence; they are irrevocably opposed to the bond between persons; they contradict the fundamental decision to direct one’s life to God. 99
I…
- The commandment “You shall not kill” thus establishes the point of departure for the start of true freedom. It leads us to promote life actively, and to develop particular ways of thinking and acting which serve life. In this way we exercise our responsibility towards the persons entrusted to us and we show, in deeds and in truth, our gratitude to God for the great gift of life (cf. Ps 139:13-14).
- This new law also gives spirit and shape to the commandment “You shall not kill”. For the Christian it involves an absolute imperative to respect, love and promote the life of every brother and sister, in accordance with the requirements of God’s bountiful love in Jesus Christ. “He laid down his life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren” (1 Jn 3:16).
It is therefore a service of love which we are all committed to ensure to our neighbour, that his or her life may be always defended and promoted, especially when it is weak or threatened. It is not only a personal but a social concern which we must all foster: a concern to make unconditional respect for human life the foundation of a renewed society.
We are asked to love and honour the life of every man and woman and to work with perseverance and courage so that our time, marked by all too many signs of death, may at last witness the establishment of a new culture of life, the fruit of the culture of truth and of love.
w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031995_evangelium-vitae.html
I see no express exclusions for estimation of self.
“Self-denial” refers to denial of pleasure for oneself. It refers to subordinating the desires of the self, for the self, not denial of self, for God.
Rather commitment of self for God, and to God, by serving and loving others, for God, is the ‘self-denial’ that we are called to.
IMHO, you are subscribing to Freud’s conception of ‘self esteem’, when you impute his thoughts, to the patent concept of estimation of one’s self, which may, for the sake of avoiding confusion, perhaps be better described as gratitude for the gift of life.
For what is the ‘self’, but life itself?
Denying oneself for its own sake, is as worthless as doing good deeds for the praise one receives from the direct beneficiaries of those deeds.
Instead what we are called to do, is to ‘deny the self’, that God may use that same self (i.e.–us) according to His Holy Will. Not to deny the self, for its own sake. That would be no different than the ‘nirvana’ of the Buddhists.
We are called to the fulfillment of life–to maximize our talents (God’s gifts to us), that our gift of ourselves back to God (our efforts, approaching of our potential, and service to Him and His Holy Will), may be a worthy gift, born of gratitude for the wonderful gift that it is; not rendering it a worthless shell, for the sake of ‘self-denial’, and intentional suffering.
Seems to me that Christ communicated as much through His parable of the talents.
jmho/fwiw.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
Show me where it says that we should glorify the self. Are there any saints who became saints while glorifying themselves?
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