Countries with high numbers of atheists are better off?

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Ask him which countries exactly. Then maybe you could refute or say something meaningful. If he’s talking about the Scandinavian countries, I think you can say “protestant work ethic” may have something to do with it. Even if they’re not exactly protestant anymore.
I often have similar thoughts, honestly, about why so many historically Catholic countries seem to have such bad government and corruption (with the exception of Austria).
 
QwertyGirl said:
I see way too much energy wasted on arguing points when it is futile. I don’t know if that’s the best use of anybody’s time.
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:grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes: well that is an interesting way to think of things. Let’s move on.
 
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I would also add that in Scandinavia and Germany it is not only “work ethics” but the type of people that matters.
“The Germans even in Africa are the Germans”, you know what I mean ?
 
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When I visited a Muslim country, I spontaneously spoke with an educated woman who tried to prove to me the importance of secularism for society.
When you look at the latest news, as radical extremists took power in Pakistan, you begin to rethink the words of that woman.
There are forms of theocracy from where people dream to run to the West as they run from hell to paradise.
The most vulnerable in such societies are girls and women.
 
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The Kingdom of God is different from the kingdom of this world.

“Better off” can be defined according to who is speaking.

Religious people - what is expected of such people?
 
So you would rather always win the argument than learn about reality. How about you take this information for what it presents and implement that new data into your world view and see where it takes you? It might lead you to fixing the problems the world has with your version of your religion you are pushing. Otherwise, you are doing exactly what one thing we despise about religion, the indoctrination to look for information that keeps painting the bulls-eye around your arrow. Live in an echo chamber much? Afraid of actually having a model of reality that reflects reality instead of how you wish it to be?
 
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Your friend is largely right, but atheists probably aren’t the cause. They’re probably the effect.
 
Russell_SA said:
So you would rather always win the argument than learn about reality. How about you take this information for what it presents and implement that new data into your world view and see where it takes you? It might lead you to fixing the problems the world has with your version of your religion you are pushing. Otherwise, you are doing exactly what one thing we despise about religion, the indoctrination to look for information that keeps painting the bulls-eye around your arrow. Live in an echo chamber much? Afraid of actually having a model of reality that reflects reality instead of how you wish it to be?
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I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at, he’s a mate and we we where just having a discussion… Plus this is called Catholic Answers Forums for a reason.
 
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Countries in the Arabian peninsula are very rich due to oil wealth. Some of their building construction is surpassing what exists in the West.

Scandinavian nations benefit from 1) oil wealth that would make US liberals scream to high heaven 2) the United States paying basically all of their defense bills.

Atheism is running on the fumes of the confidence of 19th Century and 20th Century judeo-Christian civilization.

At the current rate, it won’t last much longer.
 
Norway and Sweden have been ‘rich’ only over the last 50 years or so. They have abandoned the faith in the past… 25 years? So atheism is an effect not a cause. St. Bridget of Sweden is probably crying in heaven.
 
As others have said, the Scandinavian civilizations were built on a Christian foundation.
China is an example of an officially atheist country. Would your friend like to live there?
 
Tacceus starts of with, “Hi Everyone”. What part of that do you not see that it allows for everyone’s response?
Want a private conversation, take it off the public forum and close off your echo chamber to only the catholic. This was addressed to the topic of atheism and countries, not thing to do with catholism itself.

To clarify the point:
Tacceus ends with, “What can be said to defeat this argument?” So do you only skim over the bits you want to address and ignore what was said in full?

Pointing out that people just want to win a conversation instead of actually grow as an adult by changing their views based on reality instead of how they want it to be is something to treat with contempt. I would hope my friends would point that out for me so I could do better in the future. Again, how I want reality to be has no bearing on how reality actually is. We need to be adults and deal with how reality actually is. So if he wants to have evidence of better countries that are religious, then maybe he needs to fix how his religion may be a detriment to the betterment of that country. One question he could look at is to see if there is an actual correlation vs causation between the two points. Could be a friend and point that out as well or does none of this ever occur to you to suggest to your friend?
 
Russell_SA said:
Tacceus starts of with, “Hi Everyone”. What part of that do you not see that it allows for everyone’s response?

Want a private conversation, take it off the public forum and close off your echo chamber to only the catholic. This was addressed to the topic of atheism and countries, not thing to do with catholism itself.

To clarify the point:

Tacceus ends with, “What can be said to defeat this argument?” So do you only skim over the bits you want to address and ignore what was said in full?

Pointing out that people just want to win a conversation instead of actually grow as an adult by changing their views based on reality instead of how they want it to be is something to treat with contempt. I would hope my friends would point that out for me so I could do better in the future. Again, how I want reality to be has no bearing on how reality actually is. We need to be adults and deal with how reality actually is. So if he wants to have evidence of better countries that are religious, then maybe he needs to fix how his religion may be a detriment to the betterment of that country. One question he could look at is to see if there is an actual correlation vs causation between the two points. Could be a friend and point that out as well or does none of this ever occur to you to suggest to your friend?
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Yes it was made for everyone to have a response but I was looking for a catholic perspective. It was my first post and I wasn’t aware that people of other religions and beliefs use this forum as well, until now.

I replied to you the way I did because you where describing something completely different to what me and my friend had discussed it was a friendly discussion and I wanted the perspective of others on this forum about this . But in your original comment you didn’t really give a good response instead you where just deconstructing the way I had written this, saying stuff about my version of religion etc. All you had to was tell me what you believed and end it at that. Which you did at the end of this comment after all your unnecessary rambling "One question he could look at is to see if there is an actual correlation vs causation between the two points."

I agree a better word choice could have been used instead of saying “what could be done to destroy this argument” maybe “what can be done to challenge this argument” because I do respect my friends beliefs and never did end up challenging his beliefs. I just stated mine and this was after we had spoken to each other, but otherwise what I had written was fairly neutral. And like I said before I was only expecting a catholic perspective on this.
 
I think you are not going to change the world view of an atheist because he has a bias that is hard to over come.

When Christ came into the world he said to clothe the naked, feed the hungry, do acts of mercy. Love your enemy and do good to them. It was the Catholic church that helped those in need. Orphans, widows. Because they started taking care of the sick, hospitals were built. Nurses and doctors, the education system. Universities. Not to mention music and art. Your atheist friend is standing on the shoulders of giants and enjoying the view without looking at who really built a civilized world. The Catholic church has a 2 thousand year history and they were builders. Organizers.

Mother Teresa went to a foreign country, picked up the dieing from the street, brought them to a warm and dry place. Who does stuff like that? Saints do. Because they have the light of Christ in them.
 
Russell_SA said:
It might lead you to fixing the problems the world has with your version of your religion you are pushing.
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God asks us to take care of the poor and oppressed. Wealth is more about taking advantage of other people, so I would rather live in a country that is kind to it’s people, rather than a country that exploits.
 
So you’re promoting a higher tax burden when you move beyond the middle class income level. That’s the Scandinavian countries. They have one of the lowest gap between the upper and lower income brackets since they use their taxes to keep a solid middle class and tax people to stay in that bracket. This allows them to have a single payer health care system, free college tuition, government assistance that you can live on in between jobs and while you are retraining for a career, and other social safety nets. America is not like this at all at it’s fundamental identity.

This could come from the idea that secular democracies allow everyone to discover the process of the moral life for all instead of dictation of divine command theory. Secular democracies have it built into their processes how to fix their mistakes and continue to work towards solving their problems. Divine command theory just tells you what to think, not how to think. Also, nothing is held sacred in secular democracies that is infallible and not up to questioning and tossing out. I believe those are two possible answers to this.
 
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Too vague. Anyone can say what they want to support their theory, but it is only theory, only presupposition, not concrete proof. I see this more like those politic threads in the world news sub-Forum - your opinion is subjective, based on presumption on what you already think.
 
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Tacceus said:
My atheist friend told me that countries that are predominantly atheist, are better off, more developed, and have less problems in comparison to religious countries.
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I think he got it backwards. In countries that are well off and have less problems, sometimes the people abandon Almighty God…

Although not all atheist countries are that well off. North Korea is irreligious and a basket case compared to South Korea.

Atheistic East Germany was a dump compared to the West.
 
Russell_SA said:
Divine command theory just tells you what to think, not how to think.
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This is an inherently false statement. There are Christian thinkers, administrators and scientists, and what have you.

Belief in God does not stop one from thinking to achieve the highest form of excellence.

There are of course virtuous guideline on what we should and not do, so that we will not end up as evil geniuses.
 
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