court ordered not to raise religious issues with my daughter.

[riffer791]

This is a good good question for anyone that knows about law. Iv been going through a court battle to get contact with my daughter after my ex accused me falsely of threatening to kill them and got a 4 year intervention order on me.
Iv just gotten to the stage of being allowed to have my daughter visit me at home with supervision from my sister, but in order to get that contact i had to sign a so called agreement part of which forbids me from raising religious issues with my daughter or taking her to any religious functions. I was reluctant to sign, but was told by my atheist lawyer that the visits wouldnt go ahead if i didnt sign that part of the agreement, and that it would only be until the final orders were made. i was made to feel as though i didnt have a leg to stand on and it was only ment to be temporary, so i signed and it passed through the court.
now its bothering me that im no allowed to talk to my daughter about God, and i feel as though i made a mistake by signing away my religious freedom and im worried that i may not get it back.
The thing is though that the commonwealth of australia constitution act section 116 states

Commonwealth not to legislate in respect of religion
The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.
So does the court order count as a law that the constitution is refering to and therefore illegal?

 

[Hokomai]

I don’t know about Australian law, but I would be surprised if anyone’s constitution gave everyone the right to do anything they wanted in the name of religion. Catholics can’t hold large Masses in the middle of bust airports. Hare Krishna devotees can’t chant the names of God in the Supreme Court. Your civil authority has placed limitations on you. In my experience, men with family trouble (yes, I’m a man), are not the best people to judge the wisdom of their every action. Put aside your tendency to litigate, and be the best father you can possibly be within the rules laid down. Remember, as a father, that you are there to make your daughter’s life a wonderful one, and to resist the idea that she is ‘yours’ and that your ‘power over her’ is being limited. We men instinctively like to fight for our families. Unfortunately, instinct is not the best guide. Fighting is not always the best choice. The main thing is to do your duty as a father to the extent you are able. The law limits this. Accept it, and do the best you can for your daughter. I am not a believer, but I think your local priest would be likely to give you good advice. But don’t ask him for help in obtaining your rights. Ask for help in being a good father.

 

[Dymphna82]

I think you should fight it in court. You need a constitutional lawyer.

 

[St_Francis]

I would make it clear to my lawyer that I expect him to work hard to lift that restriction in the final orders and comply wiith the current order which is, as you say, temporary.

God gives us crosses to help us grow in holiness. Offer this cross up, increase yiur prayers, perform mortifications and alsmgivings. And pary some more. Focus these prayers not on your desire but on your daughter and your ex-wife–God can do much more than you can.

Also, I have always been so amazed by St Elizabeth of Hungary, whose in-laws forced her to leave her home and her children when her husband died. Ask for her intercession as well as your other saints’.

 

[Zenas]

I don’t know all the fine points of the law in Australia but it is a well established principle that the custodial parent (in your case the mother) has the exclusive right to administer religious training to the child. So if your beliefs and hers are different, she has the right to impart her beliefs to the child. You do not. That is one of several reasons “joint cusody” has become widely used throughout the United States.

 

[Irishmom2]

I would also suggest that in addition to seeking counsel from a constitutional lawyer, you find one that is also Catholic. Ask your parish priest, he may be able to recommend a fellow parishioner that will be able to help you. I don’t think the atheist lawyer has the passion for your case that someone else would. I wish you all the best. May God bless you and guide you in your struggle.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

… my dear friend ,

… i’m an aussie but no legal eagle , but my close friend went thru a divorce and the wife is atheist and he christian and in the custody battles his lawyer was quite strongly adamant that he had the right to have a say in his 2 young daughters religious beliefs , abnd he had his hands tied like yours for a good while , i would find a great lawyer who is christian or at least extremely favourable towards religion and respects your wishes with this and will fight tooth and claw for you , change lawuers , get a good one is my advice and work it out as best you can , your iin my prayers dear friend …

… may god bless and love you and yours ,

… john …

 

[aicirt]

Interesting. How old is your daughter? What does not taking your child to religious activities include? Mass? Attending a cousin’s communion and/or party? Celebrating Christmas? Seems pretty opened ended.
I would comply because the most important thing right now is that the child have contact with her Dad, and you with her. So you’ve won that point. But you must tell your lawyer that this will be an issue later. You are who you are, and the child should know her parent just as she knows Mom as a person who has a different religion or no religion at all.

 

[riffer791]

would make it clear to my lawyer that I expect him to work hard to lift that restriction in the final orders and comply wiith the current order which is, as you say, temporary.

I have been stressing to my lawyer that my legal right to tell my daughter about the faith is important to me, but she seems disinterested in discussing the matter, and doesnt seem concerned with defending my religious freedom. that being said, i am getting to know my daughter again despite every effort from my ex to prevent that.
My ex (never married) is into that wicca trash and very antichristian. i suspect she will try hard to prevent me from introducing brooke to the truth, and when it comes to the trial she will push to have me forbiden to evangelise to her in the final orders. and ill be stuck with a lawyer disinterested in or maybe unable to defend my religious freedom. getting a catholic constituional lawyer might not be possible. im getting legal aid funding so im not really free to pick any lawyer i want not all lawyers do legal aid work. and if i find another lawyer ill have to apply for funding again which i might not get.

Interesting. How old is your daughter? What does not taking your child to religious activities include? Mass? Attending a cousin’s communion and/or party? Celebrating Christmas? Seems pretty opened ended

brooke is 11. it sais in the order “That neither party raise issues about religion with the child or attend any religious function while the child is in their care”
i guess that means i cant take her to mass, or cenacles, or anything like that, shes alowed to spend christmas with me though.

I don’t know all the fine points of the law in Australia but it is a well established principle that the custodial parent (in your case the mother) has the exclusive right to administer religious training to the child. So if your beliefs and hers are different, she has the right to impart her beliefs to the child. You do not. That is one of several reasons “joint cusody” has become widely used throughout the United States

.
Im pretty sure we still have joint custody, not that it seems to count for anything, im a victim of purgery, and im being treated like a dangerous psycopath, its not true. but ill accept this cross, and i forgive my ex i dont want to be dragged down into hatred and resentment to me thats a victory in itself.

 

[aicirt]

Hmmm. What is this world coming to? So you a Catholic who must attend Sunday Mass can’t take your daughter with you? What are you suppose to do? I assume you’ll leave her with your sister. Actually, I wouldn’t make an issue of it. I would just ask your sister to sit for you. I think you want to show yourself as someone who is agreeable and willing to do what is required so the child knows her other parent. Providing a calm atmosphere for her while she is with you will give testimony to your Catholicism. Let the other parent be the crazy maker.
Was your daughter baptized? Did she attend Church with you before the separation?

 

[St_Francis]

Well, I was going to say don’t dump a good atheist lawyer for a mediocre of bad lawyer who happens to be Carholic, but it sounds like you don’t really have much of an option.

The good news is that yoir ex is not allowed to introduce her to Wicca, either.

And the really good news is that a father’s influence is generally stronger than a mother’s when it comes to religious things like this.

So what I would suggest is that you develop a very good fatherly relationship with her–be careful but do not avoid discipling her as often happens with non-custodial parents-- and maintain your spiritual life while she’s visiting but explain that you are not permitted to discuss it with her or take her with you–show her that you are being obedient to the authorities in this matter. But let her also see a disciplined spiritual life from you. Let her see as much of how Catholics live as possible while complying with the order–Catholics go to Mass each Sunday; Catholics engage in prayer and meditation each day. Evsn tho you two don’t talk about it, she will see that you are doing these things, reading these books (slowly), etc, and how Catholics interact with the culture: not watching certain tv shows, not allowing things to disturb one’s equanimity, etc.

What I have seen personally is that the most important and influencing aspect is to maintain a good and encouraging relationship with one’s child(ren).

This is in God’s Hands. Your daughter is His daughter as well, and He can and does love her even more than you do.

 

[Zenas]

it sais in the order “That neither party raise issues about religion with the child or attend any religious function while the child is in their care”

Any idea how that language got in the order? Did the mother request it or did the judge just put it in? Do you have any idea whether that is a common practice in the jurisdiction where you live?

 

[FormerWarrior]

This is a good good question for anyone that knows about law. Iv been going through a court battle to get contact with my daughter after my ex accused me falsely of threatening to kill them and got a 4 year intervention order on me.
Iv just gotten to the stage of being allowed to have my daughter visit me at home with supervision from my sister, but in order to get that contact i had to sign a so called agreement part of which forbids me from raising religious issues with my daughter or taking her to any religious functions. I was reluctant to sign, but was told by my atheist lawyer that the visits wouldnt go ahead if i didnt sign that part of the agreement, and that it would only be until the final orders were made. i was made to feel as though i didnt have a leg to stand on and it was only ment to be temporary, so i signed and it passed through the court.
now its bothering me that im no allowed to talk to my daughter about God, and i feel as though i made a mistake by signing away my religious freedom and im worried that i may not get it back.
The thing is though that the commonwealth of australia constitution act section 116 states

Commonwealth not to legislate in respect of religion
The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.
So does the court order count as a law that the constitution is refering to and therefore illegal?

I don’t know about australian law, but in the US, there are some rights which you cannot sign away. For example, an agreement not to declare bankruptcy is not enforceable in the US. However, there are some circumstances in which you can lose or relinquish Constitutional rights. You really need an expert in that area of law.

The other thing you might consider, is to choose your fights. If it is only a matter of a relatively short time before you would gain full rights, then do you really want to start a fight which could derail or delay that process. If an order against you was just lifted, you might want to just stay on the down low and bide your time. Just enjoy the company of your daughter. Children learn by example, anyway, more than by words.

 

[riffer791]

Any idea how that language got in the order? Did the mother request it or did the judge just put it in? Do you have any idea whether that is a common practice in the jurisdiction where you live?

my understanding is, after the psyc report was good, and the report from the contacts centre was good, disproveing my ex’s claim that brooke is afraid of me. she decided to agree to have me spend time with brooke at home on a saturday with supervision from my sister, so her and her lawyer wrote up the agreement with the part about us not being allowed to raise religious issues with her. and it was given to me to sign. then it was given to the judge and the terms in the agreement were ordered by the court. i dont know if it happens often, but to me it seems typical that these days in a mostly athiest society that religious freedom is challenged. its the devils work.

Well, I was going to say don’t dump a good atheist lawyer for a mediocre of bad lawyer who happens to be Carholic, but it sounds like you don’t really have much of an option

Ill talk more to my lawyer about my concerns and hopefully i can make her understand how important it is that i am allowed to talk to Brooke about the faith.
Brooke and i are getting along well as we allways have, shes been quite affectionate towards me. she knows im a dedicated catholic and she doesnt seem disapointed or distanced by it. i pray for her often that she will choose to be baptised and not be led astray into a perverse kind of lifestyle. it really bothers me that i want to introduce her to Christ and the truth, its my duty to, but im forbidden by the secular authoroties to do so. im not sure what will happen if i breach the order. maybe they will suspend my contact.
It reminds me of the early apostles,when they were whipped by the jews and told not to preach about Jesus but they rejoiced that they were worthy to suffer for the sake of Jesus and went and preached anyway. im tempted to ignore the order, would it be against the constitution for them to take my daughter from me because i spoke to her about religion?

Was your daughter baptized? Did she attend Church with you before the separation?

When me and my ex were still together i sugested we get her baptized, my ex was totally against it, we debated about it for a while but she dead set refused to allow her to be baptized. i wasnt really a practicing catholic back them i just thaught fine Brooke can decide to get baptised later in life when she can choose for herself. after we seperated my parents were going to church and they took brooke with them during my weekend with her.
my ex had a big winge about it. shes a very spiritual person i dont know exactly why she has such a hatred for christianity, i think shes just deceived

 

[riffer791]

I don’t know about australian law, but in the US, there are some rights which you cannot sign away. For example, an agreement not to declare bankruptcy is not enforceable in the US. However, there are some circumstances in which you can lose or relinquish Constitutional rights. You really need an expert in that area of law.

The other thing you might consider, is to choose your fights. If it is only a matter of a relatively short time before you would gain full rights, then do you really want to start a fight which could derail or delay that process. If an order against you was just lifted, you might want to just stay on the down low and bide your time. Just enjoy the company of your daughter. Children learn by example, anyway, more than by words.

thanks for all your advice.
the trial and final orders will be in april next year. i guess i could hold out until then. like i said if the situation arises where i ought mention somthing that has to do with religion to my daughter, but im forbidden by a court order to do so it just really gets to me. i dont know if i can keep my mouth shut that long, i want to tell her to pray and ask God for help with the things she needs, i want to witness to her and tell her about the Virgin Mary and the apparitions at Fatima and Kibeho Rwanda etc.
Maybe ill have to comply with the court order without help from a constitutional lawyer, but i would like to fight this, maybe its time more catholics were bolder and took a stand in defense of the truth and religious freedom, otherwise we will just be ignored, and walked all over, we could wake up one day and realise we have no religious freedom, because the majority of us were too lukewarm in the faith and too scared of alittle persecution.

 

[FormerWarrior]

thanks for all your advice.
the trial and final orders will be in april next year. i guess i could hold out until then. like i said if the situation arises where i ought mention somthing that has to do with religion to my daughter, but im forbidden by a court order to do so it just really gets to me. i dont know if i can keep my mouth shut that long, i want to tell her to pray and ask God for help with the things she needs, i want to witness to her and tell her about the Virgin Mary and the apparitions at Fatima and Kibeho Rwanda etc.
Maybe ill have to comply with the court order without help from a constitutional lawyer, but i would like to fight this, maybe its time more catholics were bolder and took a stand in defense of the truth and religious freedom, otherwise we will just be ignored, and walked all over, we could wake up one day and realise we have no religious freedom, because the majority of us were too lukewarm in the faith and too scared of alittle persecution.

Perhaps there is a way to both make your legal point, and keep the process to be with your daughter on track. My concern would be that if you start filing motions to overturn existing orders, that everything could get bogged down and delayed.

However, there is a statute of limitations for taking legal action. In the US, that statute starts to run at the moment that a reasonable person would have known that he or she was harmed. For a matter like this, the typical window is one or two years, depending on the jurisdiction. You would need to talk to a lawyer, but it may be possible to file suit after you have full rights to be with your daughter. If you fail to file anything on time, then you may relinquish those rights. I am not giving legal advice, but just saying that it might be worth talking to counsel. Usually, an attorney will meet with you at no charge to discuss the merits of a case, and to explore options.

 

[riffer791]

thanks formerwarrior.
if the order not to raise religious issues with my daughter ends up retained in the final orders, then ill see about fileing a suit to get it overturned, assuming thats possible.

the only reason i signed that part of the so called agreement (although i really didnt want to) is because i was told i had to for the visitation orders to progress allthough i couldnt really understand why. im being descriminated against because im diagnosed as a schizophrenic. but i have clean drug screens, a good psyc report, a decent family report (i dont think the interviewer believed everything i said), proof from my doctor that i take my medication regularly, no convictions for violence. there was no violence during my relationship with my ex, (allthough thats no what she claims) and i quit drinking totally, and got a good report from the supervisers at the contact centre.
i figured that ought to give me some traction, apparently not, my ex is calling all the shots, so sais my lawyer, and i was made to feel as though i didnt have a leg to stand on, because i have a mental illness. so i signed just so i could go ahead with the updated visiting arrangement. i regreted it straight away, i even asked if i could unsign it. i could see that keeping my mouth shut about God was going to be a problem.

I had my visit with my daughter yesterday with my sister supervising, a conversation come up about when my town was evacuated because it was expected to flood, then it didnt, i just said “I said my prayers, I know God heard my prayers”.
i doubt brooke will tell her mum, but even if she finds out, if she and the court are going to punish me for that then so be it.
maybe if it comes to that then my lawyer will show some concern for this issue. if not then ill seek another lawyer.

Thanks for all your concern and advice and prayers.

 

[FormerWarrior]

thanks formerwarrior.
if the order not to raise religious issues with my daughter ends up retained in the final orders, then ill see about fileing a suit to get it overturned, assuming thats possible.

the only reason i signed that part of the so called agreement (although i really didnt want to) is because i was told i had to for the visitation orders to progress allthough i couldnt really understand why. im being descriminated against because im diagnosed as a schizophrenic. but i have clean drug screens, a good psyc report, a decent family report (i dont think the interviewer believed everything i said), proof from my doctor that i take my medication regularly, no convictions for violence. there was no violence during my relationship with my ex, (allthough thats no what she claims) and i quit drinking totally, and got a good report from the supervisers at the contact centre.
i figured that ought to give me some traction, apparently not, my ex is calling all the shots, so sais my lawyer, and i was made to feel as though i didnt have a leg to stand on, because i have a mental illness. so i signed just so i could go ahead with the updated visiting arrangement. i regreted it straight away, i even asked if i could unsign it. i could see that keeping my mouth shut about God was going to be a problem.

I had my visit with my daughter yesterday with my sister supervising, a conversation come up about when my town was evacuated because it was expected to flood, then it didnt, i just said “I said my prayers, I know God heard my prayers”.
i doubt brooke will tell her mum, but even if she finds out, if she and the court are going to punish me for that then so be it.
maybe if it comes to that then my lawyer will show some concern for this issue. if not then ill seek another lawyer.

Thanks for all your concern and advice and prayers.

Just keep the end game in sight. Don’t get emotional about the legal process, even though it can be maddening and frustrating. Your goal is to be with your daughter, so do what you need to in order to make that happen. The more time passes, and your visits are successful, then the more latitude you will have. Keep in mind that the system will always err on the side of what it thinks the child’s best interests are. It will come down on you like a ton of bricks, before it will stop to consider your rights. So, don’t taunt it. It is a system, like any other, which can work for you or against you. I have a very close relationship with my personal attorney. We have a meal together at least once per week. Part of the value I get from the relationship is his objective eye. He can see things more objectively than I can, when it is a matter which I an enmeshed with. If you can, then find legal counsel of your own to guide you. Just having that (name removed by moderator)ut, can clarify what the best course of action is. The decision is always yours, it is only advice.

At the end of the day, the positive role model that you provide speaks louder than any words. Keep that in mind. You will continue to live your life in a spiritual way, and kids are far more influenced by action than they are by words.