Courtship for adults?

[hopefully]

I met a gentleman at Church who I have known for a little over a year. We often see each other in group settings that is Church-related. We have communicated via text and have had conversations together. I really enjoy and appreciate the time I spend with him as well as admire him as a person. I also have the feeling and have seen occasions where he seemed to like me back. I am interested in discerning marriage between us if course that is also what he wants. I just want to be prepared

I would like to know more about traditional Catholic courtship. I am in my late twenties and he is in his early thirties, therefore, a lot of the literature and websites that speak about courtship for teenagers does very little to help me. I also recognize that traditional Catholic courtship is also very difficult as we are living in a secular environment and with technology etc.

Basically my questions are:

1. What are the guidelines around

• Calling each other pet names up until marriage?
• Going out to dinner alone together or is spending time together during the day better?
• how often to see, call, and text each other etc?
• being alone in the car together (driving)
• is kissing/hugging ok or best to avoid completely?

1. How exactly is courtship usually initiated between two individuals (without family or parents in my case) or is it automatically assumed?
2. How long should courtship and engagement period last for two consenting adults in the thirty age range?

Basically, how should courtship look like for two adults around the thirty age mark?

Please feel free to share your personal experiences if you don’t mind. Thank you and God bless.

 

[Jen7]

I’m happy for you! But I’m also afraid there aren’t the “guidelines” you seek. At least not really. Sure, folks write and sell books that will purport “rules” for these items. But in my experience it’s a strange path to walk. For one thing, since the rules are made up, you’re just following one person’s opinion. Read enough courtship books and you’ll see even the courtship-promoters disagree. Some allow kissing on the cheek, some allow only handholding. Some promote chaperoned dates, some say you can be out alone before dark as long as it’s in public. It can drive you a little crazy if you’re searching for the “right way.”

Personally, though, I feel the whole courting/purity culture is an imprudent foundation for a Catholic marriage. Or any marriage. The subtle message is “sex is bad, human emotions are out of control and scary, and we need a zillion rules to save us from our careening lusts long enough to walk to the altar!” But What happens after you say “I do”? Truly. You’ll have no idea. And to me that is very creepy. Courtship authors seem to think you’ll go from never having held hands to throwing off your clothes and diving passionately into each other’s arms. Riiiiiight.
This is going to be your first time finding out what your now-husband REALLY thinks & feels about many personal topics and experiences. And my guess is it won’t always be sexy. I heard about a woman who married the model chaste man after a courtship that included zero physical touch. After marriage she realized he was still not into physical connection and did not actually wish to consummate their marriage. Awkward. But how could she have known ahead of time?!

I recommend fewer rules and gradually get a sense of what this guy is made of. Just keep your head on straight, let him show his cards, figure out how ya’ll handle tension and disagreements, stay resolved to save sex for marriage and let him show you if he shares those values too. Courting or dating are there to figure out what you’re both made of. Prop the whole thing up with too many canned “rules” and you miss the person underneath them all. And when the goal is to decide if you want to team up with this person forever… that could be a tragic miss!

I say fewer rules… more casual “getting to know” and see where it goes. If you want any kind of “guidelines” I recommend “Boundaries” by Dr. Cloud and Townsend. Great advise for dating… or ANY other relationship in your life!

Have fun!

 

[Retsel]

Take it slow and do fun things together.

While doing so, discover if he is really worthy of your admiration and compatible with your beliefs.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Catholicism doesn’t have rules for this sort of thing. All you’re expected to do as an adult is avoid a near occasion of sin, which basically means don’t do anything physical that would cause you to become sexually aroused. The only thing on your list that relates to that is “is kissing/ hugging okay or best to avoid completely”. I sincerely doubt that any Catholic dating couple in the Western world has avoided kissing and hugging completely during their entire courtship. People usually will kiss and hug a little but when they feel themselves getting sexually aroused they will stop. Where that point is might be different for different people.

The rest of the stuff you mention such as going out to dinner, using pet names and being alone together in a car is normal behavior for two adults, at least in the US and other Western countries. Presumably when you’re “alone together in the car” you’re not engaging in a heavy makeout session or having sex in the back seat, etc., you’re just going somewhere together in the car. As for how often to see, call and text, that’s kind of up to the couple.

I’m not sure what country you live in or what experiences of dating you have had in the past. It may be that some countries have cultural dating “rules”, but those are cultural, not specifically Catholic.

I also think maybe you’re overthinking this whole thing. Most of the stuff like calling each other and using pet names just develops naturally with a relationship. We don’t think about it. As for how long the courtship period should last, usually if you’ve been dating somebody exclusively for several months you’ll start discussing with them where the relationship is going, like is it leading to a commitment, to marriage, etc because if not then you won’t want to waste time in your 30s on a relationship with somebody who doesn’t want to commit.

If you’ve known this guy for a little over a year, you should already be going on dates together, asking him for coffee etc and not just doing things in a group setting.

The reason that there aren’t websites for adults on Catholic courtship is that usually by the time somebody is in their 20s or 30s, they don’t need help from a website on how to date. It’s common sense adult behavior. Teenagers on the other hand need guidance because they might not know yet what’s appropriate behavior on a date.

 

[hopefully]

This is such an excellent answer, thank you! You are so right. There is definitely a vibe where
I’ve even been told by various traditional Catholics that love is not necessary to marry. This must be because they don’t trust the early emotions that come with this. There is a Catholic girl who I know who doesn’t like touch and even wants to convince her future husband to sleep in a different bed after a short while in order to not get attached.

I do feel a connection with this gentleman and of course I am attracted to him. For example, we look at each other often and we are often near each other in crowded settings so we can be close or strive to be near each other. I really didn’t know to handle this. I kept asking myself if I am a dirty person just because of these feels and and whether I have the idea of love distorted.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Personally, though, I feel the whole courting/purity culture is an imprudent foundation for a Catholic marriage. Or any marriage.

I agree with you, it’s silly.

My mother had an active dating life in her 20s and 30s before Vatican II and she didn’t have a whole bunch of “rules”, other than no making out or heavy petting, and being careful about things like going with a guy to his apartment alone (in those days, that sent a cultural message that you might be willing to have sex with the guy). A couple of good-night kisses were okay and maybe an occasional additional kiss between two people who were engaged or close to being engaged, but you didn’t go beyond that. Holding hands and ordinary hugging or putting an arm around somebody’s shoulders were considered non-sexual and normal; even kissing could be non-sexual if it was just a quick peck and not some big huge 10-minute embrace. People didn’t date without touching each other. If you watch a lot of old Hollywood movies from the 1950s or earlier, you’ll see how people basically got along.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

There is definitely a vibe where
I’ve even been told by various traditional Catholics that love is not necessary to marry. This must be because they don’t trust the early emotions that come with this.

That’s not a “traditional Catholic” view, it’s the view of a particular person, or in some cases a cultural view. There are people who pick a marriage partner based on factors other than romantic love, sort of like arranged marriages. And that’s okay if it’s what the two people want, it can even work out well and sometimes the couple falls in love over time. But it’s not a Catholic requirement that you choose a partner in that way.

There is a Catholic girl who I know who doesn’t like touch and even wants to convince her future husband to sleep in a different bed after a short while in order to not get attached.

This girl has issues that don’t relate to Catholicism. I have known people who were like this. Usually they are dealing with some medical or psychological issue.

It seems like you are meeting a lot of people whose approach to dating and romance is a bit odd at least by Western standards. I wouldn’t use them as examples of “how Catholics date” or how anybody dates to be honest.

 

[Jen7]

I do feel a connection with this gentleman and of course I am attracted to him. For example, we look at each other often and we are often near each other in crowded settings so we can be close or strive to be near each other. I really didn’t know to handle this. I kept asking myself if I am a dirty person just because of these feels and and whether I have the idea of love distorted.

Of course you aren’t dirty for being attracted to him! As far as “how to handle this”… I would say less thinking about “it” (your attraction to him) and more getting to know who he is! Have ya’ll talked before? Been out for coffee? Started any kind of friendship? I’m a bit unclear if this romance is based only on standing close together in a crowd and reading things into each other’s “looks.” If so… invite him to join you some Saturday for… whatever you like to do. Take a hike, bike through town, go to a local festival, grab lunch at your favorite place, volunteer at a soup kitchen or animal shelter - anything, really. Think less; do more.

 

[hopefully]

This girl has issues that don’t relate to Catholicism. I have known people who were like this. Usually they are dealing with some medical or psychological issue.

I do know this somehow came from the home for her. She was raised by parents who told her that this was the way. You are right though - I don’t think this is normal either. I didn’t get a good feeling about it as I was listening to this. It’s not practical. There is nothing wrong with enjoying the love between your husband/wife in a fruitful marriage, if anything it glorifies God and we need more Catholic families such as this so we can beat the meaningless, lustful and fruitless image of relationships secular society has created. God created our emotions and desires for a reason, He would never set us up to fail.

It seems like you are meeting a lot of people whose approach to dating and romance is a bit odd at least by Western standards. I wouldn’t use them as examples of “how Catholics date” or how anybody dates to be honest.

Yes, well it is a Traditional Catholic environment and a lot of the singles do sadly seem awkward when it comes to Courtship etc. I certainly believe there is a big difference between dating for traditional Catholics and dating that Post Vatican II Catholics engage in. That’s what I’ve noticed.

 

[Jen7]

It seems like you are meeting a lot of people whose approach to dating and romance is a bit odd at least by Western standards. I wouldn’t use them as examples of “how Catholics date” or how anybody dates to be honest.

oint_up_2:t2:oint_up_2:t2:oint_up_2:t2:

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Yes, I’ve noticed that there are some traditional Catholics who date and even dress more like the Amish than like any sort of normal Catholic people. I’m not sure what “tradition” they are following because I had a huge family of Catholic aunts and uncles who all dated and married during the 20th century and well before Vatican II, and none of them looked or acted like that.

 

[hopefully]

Yes, we’ve definitely spoken! He has also paid me compliments etc and I’ve caught him staring a few times! We seem to linger around waiting for each other and then go out for coffee together with the group. We’ve had a few conversation via text regarding how our week is etc. We are definitely friends. He seems more quiet and reserved in person than when we message each other which we have only done on a few occasions so far. I would prefer him to make the first move! Ask me out for dinner or coffee.

 

[Peeps]

I would prefer him to make the first move! Ask me out for dinner or coffee.

My husband and I started dating when we were 15 and 16 years old. We dated for six years, and then married. We were virgins when we married, but we enjoyed plenty of kisses during our dating years! We celebrated our 40th wedding anniversary this year.

I wouldn’t wait for the man to make the first move. Although we see mostly macho cool guys on TV, movies, and read about these dudes in books, many real-life men are shy and need some encouragement to speak up. Many men are truly afraid of being rejected by a woman, often because they HAVE been rejected by a woman! So rather than take a chance on being hurt again, they back away and go through agonies trying to work up the courage to invite a woman out for a date.

So have pity on the shy, quiet guys!! Gently encourage him!

Or just speak right up and ask, “Hey, how about meeting at (moderately-priced restaurant of choice, preferably something reasonably quiet that encourages couples to enjoy a conversation as well as good food!) after work? I’m free on Wednesdays and Thursdays–do either of those days work for you around 6 p.m.?”

Or ask him to accompany you to a concert (preferably something decent, like your local chamber orchestra or folk music duo!). Or perhaps ask if he would join you for a walk through a local museum or art gallery.

A shy guy will be very relieved and happy that you broke the ice and approached him!

In our marriage (40 years!) I have always been the one to initiate various activities, recreational pursuits, dinners out, etc. My husband would be content to just stay home and eat Kraft Macaroni and Cheese, watch TV, and surf the web. I encourage him to develop his interests (for the last few years, he’s been into collecting and refurbishing typewriters!). There is nothing “forward” or unlady-like or “hen-pecking” about being outgoing! I am a natural talker and love to chat up people in lines at the grocery store, or in my workplace cafeteria! The current trend of people spending their lunch hours studying their Smart Phone is driving me insane, and I am seriously considering getting a large high sign and setting it on my lunch table–a sign that says, “Let’s TALK!”

Again, I’m not talking about being an obnoxious, pushy “broad” who forces a man into a relationship that he’s not interested in. I’m just encouraging you to help out a shy guy who is a good prospect for a long-term relationship and hopefully marriage and family! Being shy is difficult–people who are shy are often lonely and they WANT someone to make the first move and be their friend (or more).

If you wait too long, you might lose him, because some other woman WILL speak up and invite him out.

Hope this advice gives you something to think about.

 

[hopefully]

how about meeting at (moderately-priced restaurant of choice, preferably something reasonably quiet that encourages couples to enjoy a conversation as well as good food!) after work? I’m free on Wednesdays and Thursdays–do either of those days work for you around 6 p.m.?”

Or ask him to accompany you to a concert (preferably something decent, like your local chamber orchestra or folk music duo!). Or perhaps ask if he would join you for a walk through a local museum or art gallery.

Thank you so much for your long and thoughtful answer! I would prefer not to ask him first as I’m really shy myself. I have given him signals by texting him first, twice!

 

[Jen7]

Glad to hear it! Although a shy, introverted man may not make the first move. I know that’s not preferred. But at your age I wouldn’t wait forever. It sounds like it’s time to stop doing things with “the group.” Maybe invite him out one-on-one once to something pretty casual. See if he gets the hint and picks it up from there.

I should add, I DIED on the hill of “he makes the first move” when I was dating years ago. So I get the appeal, I really do. But I suppose I’ve become less rigid as my life has gone on. What, I would ask, do you loose by making the first move if he picks up the ball and runs with it after this? These days well-meaning guys have not been taught to make the first move. I think a lot of truly well-intentioned gentlemen think they are being polite to wait for her to “go first.” They don’t want to come off as pushy or grabby or inappropriate. In Catholic circles everyone is just so dang afraid of looking like the “lustful one.” The one who really WANTS the other. Fear of lust is overrated, though. What we should really be watching out for is selfishness. Just food for thought!

 

[Jen7]

I would prefer not to ask him first as I’m really shy myself. I have given him signals by texting him first, twice!

You two sound like two very sweet introverts who could be perfect together! I wish I could invite you both someplace and then “get sick” and have to go home, leaving you both conveniently alone! Have a local friend who could do it for me?! Otherwise I can only pray that one of you can play the extrovert for a bit & break the ice! Best of luck!!

 

[Jen7]

My husband and I started dating when we were 15 and 16 years old. We dated for six years, and then married. We were virgins when we married, but we enjoyed plenty of kisses during our dating years! We celebrated our 40th wedding anniversary this year.

Peeps, that is a truly beautiful story!! I was 25 when I met my husband & 27 when we married. I wish we’d met as teens and married younger. You and your husband are lucky for all the bonus years of togetherness you have on me and my husband! Thanks for sharing your story that those early loves last, too. I feel they get a bad wrap often. I hope my kids are mature enough to find their future spouse at 16.

God bless you and your husband!

 

[hopefully]

Ahh thank you! Hahaha! I wish I could have the courage! Please keep us in your prayers.

 

[1ke]

I would like to know more about traditional Catholic courtship.

There really isn’t such a thing.

How young people interact is more cultural than religion based.

My in-laws, who are 90, went to dances and out on dates in the 1950s. There was no “chaperoned courtship”.

The modern courtship movement is evangelical Protestant for the most part. There are some Catholics who’ve bought into it.

What are the guidelines around

There aren’t any. Use your own prudential judgment in these matters.

Basically, how should courtship look like for two adults around the thirty age mark?

However you two think it should.

How long should courtship and engagement period last for two consenting adults in the thirty age range?

In most cases proximate preparation for marriage is 6 months to 1 year. This has noting to do with courtship. It has to do with sacramental prep.

I also have the feeling and have seen occasions where he seemed to like me back. I am interested in discerning marriage between us if course that is also what he wants. I just want to be prepared

Whoa, Nellie. You’ve seen him at Church and get a feeling he may like you, and you want to discern marriage with him. Tell him that and he’ll likely run, not walk, in the other direction. You don’t even really know him.

If he asks you out, go. Take things one day at a time, and chill.

How exactly is courtship usually initiated between two individuals (without family or parents in my case) or is it automatically assumed?

Forget this courtship business. You two are adults, and while it is certainly appropriate to do things in groups, the modern courtship movement is basically a Protestant thing and it’s got some kooky ideas.

Certainly you aren’t interested in seeing someone for a casual fling, but you need not be focused on “discerning marriage” right out of the gate either. Focus on getting to know the other person as a person, then go from there.

He will likely not be thinking in terms of “courting” but rather “dating”.

 

[1ke]

There is definitely a vibe where
I’ve even been told by various traditional Catholics that love is not necessary to marry.

Well, while this is true strictly speaking, it’s certainly not how I’d want to live my marriage.

This must be because they don’t trust the early emotions that come with this.

We can get blinded to a person’s bad qualities if we are too infatuated with them, so it is good to get past the infatuation stage to discern deeper feelings and deeper issues. Good communication and paying attention to warning signs through a person’s behavior help us avoid bad decisions. Also, that is why the Church requires time for discernment— no whirlwind romances.

kept asking myself if I am a dirty person just because of these feels and and whether I have the idea of love distorted.

If you are having these sorts of thoughts, perhaps you need some help from a priest or counselor.