Courtship Vs. Dating

[marceleonidas]

Hi all!

There’s a girl I would like to ask out; but I’m having a slight dilemma. My friends are saying I should get to know her more before asking her out: hang out, become friends etc. I have “hung out” with her quite a bit by now and I think I should invite on a “date” so that I may propose a courtship: Basically saying we agree to get to know one another with a clear understanding of what we want out of the relationship (Marriage? fling? discernment?).

Dating:
-Go on dates
-Allow natural chemistry to decide where the relationship goes (we feel strongly about each other = increased commitment)
-attraction towards each other is necessary
-Can end whenever
-No clear rules for what is appropriate (kissing, cuddling etc.) just whatever is natural at the moment

Courtship:
-Understanding of what each other wants (eg: I am looking for a spouse)
-Based on agreement NOT emotions
-agreed upon timeframe (eg: We agree to court for 4 months. I could find out she is evil after day 1 but I will still stick with her for 4 months)
-agreed upon rules for physical behavior (kissing allowed? cuddling allowed? permission required? eg: May I kiss you?)
-engage in everyday activities that may even be boring (work, volunteer, go to mass together etc). Dates are ok but just not the focus.

I know what I show here isn’t the precise traditional courtship model but it is my own very similar adaptation.

Context: I am 18. I am a bit young to be concerned over marriage but what can I say; its not going to stop me from rabidly chasing beautiful girls. I do however want to proceed with noble intentions. I intend to be the knight in shining armor for whomever God wills my bride to be.

Lets have a discussion.

 

[canadiannurse]

Hi all!

There’s a girl I would like to ask out; but I’m having a slight dilemma. My friends are saying I should get to know her more before asking her out: hang out, become friends etc. I have “hung out” with her quite a bit by now and I think I should invite on a “date” so that I may propose a courtship: Basically saying we agree to get to know one another with a clear understanding of what we want out of the relationship (Marriage? fling? discernment?).

Dating:
-Go on dates
-Allow natural chemistry to decide where the relationship goes (we feel strongly about each other = increased commitment)
-attraction towards each other is necessary
-Can end whenever
-No clear rules for what is appropriate (kissing, cuddling etc.) just whatever is natural at the moment

Courtship:
-Understanding of what each other wants (eg: I am looking for a spouse)
-Based on agreement NOT emotions
-agreed upon timeframe (eg: We agree to court for 4 months. I could find out she is evil after day 1 but I will still stick with her for 4 months)
-agreed upon rules for physical behavior (kissing allowed? cuddling allowed? permission required? eg: May I kiss you?)
-engage in everyday activities that may even be boring (work, volunteer, go to mass together etc). Dates are ok but just not the focus.

I know what I show here isn’t the precise traditional courtship model but it is my own very similar adaptation.

Context: I am 18. I am a bit young to be concerned over marriage but what can I say; its not going to stop me from rabidly chasing beautiful girls. I do however want to proceed with noble intentions. I intend to be the knight in shining armor for whomever God wills my bride to be.

Lets have a discussion.

My ideal dating for that age and even now is friends only. No physical affection that you wouldn’t do with one of your guy buddies. If and when you both realize there may be more, you can talk about what you would both like to do in terms of becoming a couple. Plan things publicly to avoid temptation and/or go on double dates. Treat her kindly, respect her body and stay chaste

 

[KendraDZ1902]

You can date someone and still have clear rules for what is appropriate.

 

[Xantippe]

Hi all!

There’s a girl I would like to ask out; but I’m having a slight dilemma. My friends are saying I should get to know her more before asking her out: hang out, become friends etc. I have “hung out” with her quite a bit by now and I think I should invite on a “date” so that I may propose a courtship: Basically saying we agree to get to know one another with a clear understanding of what we want out of the relationship (Marriage? fling? discernment?).

Dating:
-Go on dates
-Allow natural chemistry to decide where the relationship goes (we feel strongly about each other = increased commitment)
-attraction towards each other is necessary
-Can end whenever
-No clear rules for what is appropriate (kissing, cuddling etc.) just whatever is natural at the moment

**There is a more reasonable way to date. Namely, do everything on your dating list but a) be more discerning about character, compatibility and vocation and b) be more systematic the last item. I would, for instance, suggest that physical affection should closely track the level of commitment and certainty in the relationship. Different forms of affection say things just as much as speech does, and we shouldn’t say them without meaning them. **

Courtship:
-Understanding of what each other wants (eg: I am looking for a spouse)
-Based on agreement NOT emotions

**Emotions are really important. For instance, it’s your emotions that are attracting you to this particular young woman rather than another.
**

-agreed upon timeframe (eg: We agree to court for 4 months. I could find out she is evil after day 1 but I will still stick with her for 4 months)

**What does “stick with” mean in this context? Why would one “stick with” an evil person one wasn’t married to a minute longer than necessary?
**

-agreed upon rules for physical behavior (kissing allowed? cuddling allowed? permission required? eg: May I kiss you?)
**
This is better, but there is an internationally recognized signal for “Let’s kiss!”**

-engage in everyday activities that may even be boring (work, volunteer, go to mass together etc). Dates are ok but just not the focus.

**This is good, but it’s where good dating and marriage eventually goes. **

I know what I show here isn’t the precise traditional courtship model but it is my own very similar adaptation.

Context: I am 18. I am a bit young to be concerned over marriage but what can I say; its not going to stop me from rabidly chasing beautiful girls. I do however want to proceed with noble intentions. I intend to be the knight in shining armor for whomever God wills my bride to be.

Lets have a discussion.

Careful–you may catch one!

Good luck!

 

[buffalo]

**The ABC’s of Choosing a Good Wife: How to find & marry a great girl

**

 

[marceleonidas]

Ok yes emotions DO matter but they cannot be the basis of a relationship.

Perhaps that’s just obvious to some people but speaking as teenager of this generation I know that many my age don’t get that at all. When that idea was introduced to me it was mind blowing: “WOW! You mean people have good days and bad days but still remain loyal to eachother???”

When I mean “stick with” I’m saying you can be sure you wont just be dumped for making a mistake. There also wont be tons of drama. Again this may be obvious to some people but simply having an adult understanding/ agreement through clear and calm communication is something tons of people I know just dont seems to get.

 

[PolarGuy]

Actually, marceleonidas, emotions have a lot to do with being the basis of relationships. You might hear the phrase sometime, “the heart has reasons of which reason knows nothing.” When you talk about basing a relationship on “agreement, not emotions,” you are describing something more like a business partnership than anything else.

To weigh in on your original post, I think it might be coming on a bit too strong, and might scare someone away and/or come across as creepy, to launch into a “let’s have a courtship” talk.

I do however think you should – in your words – rabidly chase beautiful girls, and doingit with noble intentions Why not do something in the middle of what you and your friends are proposing, i.e., do some “fun stuff,” and maybe suggest doing some other things, i.e., going to Mass or other activities too?

 

[thewanderer]

Ok yes emotions DO matter but they cannot be the basis of a relationship.

Perhaps that’s just obvious to some people but speaking as teenager of this generation I know that many my age don’t get that at all. When that idea was introduced to me it was mind blowing: “WOW! You mean people have good days and bad days but still remain loyal to eachother???”

When I mean “stick with” I’m saying you can be sure you wont just be dumped for making a mistake. There also wont be tons of drama. Again this may be obvious to some people but simply having an adult understanding/ agreement through clear and calm communication is something tons of people I know just dont seems to get.

However, just because tons of people you know don’t get that doesn’t mean it is incompatible with dating. Honestly, you’re definition of courting sounds pretty much like my dating, except for the fact that we didn’t say no matter what we will stick together for x amount of time, instead, we both knew and understood that this relationship was committed and based on more than just emotions and so we would obviously not throw out the relationship because of a few days where we just “weren’t feeling it”. Setting out a set time frame during which you cannot break up is unnatural IMHO, and really not necessary, all you need is to be aware and mature enough to not rely solely on butterfly feelings about in determining whether or not to break up. Courtship is an unnessesary overreaction to the unhealthy dating that is often seen in the world around us. It is perfectly sufficient to fix dating by having a healthy dating relationship.

 

[marceleonidas]

Wow, I honestly thought people on this forum would be very pro courtship.

Haha yes though, perhaps you all are right. I realize now after rereading my post that I may be coming on as quite strong and overly …medieval?

I do think I will stick to my guns on the time frame thing though. But let me clarify. Obviously if it turns out the person you are “courting” is an evil psycho then a breakup may be good/ necessary. I’m only saying that you should stick with the person even while things dont go exactly as hoped or planned.
I’ll tell you why:
Because “being stuck with someone” is a glimpse at married life. Ok so they did something bad or it turns out that after the first 2 weeks this person is not very exciting… you still need to give them time to show their true character. BUT all the while remembering that if at the end of it if you DID stick with them and neither of you had any strong affection or willingness to sacrifice for each-other then its OK just to go your seperate ways. No breakup, no drama.

Remember:
Our character is determined by the choices we make.
Our love is determined by the sacrifices we make.

You need TIME to see both.

 

[Xantippe]

However, just because tons of people you know don’t get that doesn’t mean it is incompatible with dating. Honestly, you’re definition of courting sounds pretty much like my dating, except for the fact that we didn’t say no matter what we will stick together for x amount of time, instead, we both knew and understood that this relationship was committed and based on more than just emotions and so we would obviously not throw out the relationship because of a few days where we just “weren’t feeling it”. Setting out a set time frame during which you cannot break up is unnatural IMHO, and really not necessary, all you need is to be aware and mature enough to not rely solely on butterfly feelings about in determining whether or not to break up. Courtship is an unnessesary overreaction to the unhealthy dating that is often seen in the world around us. It is perfectly sufficient to fix dating by having a healthy dating relationship.

Yeah.

I would attribute rapid and repeated breakups and drama to:

1. immaturity

and

1. incompatibility.

and

1. going exclusive too rapidly (if the couple hadn’t prematurely gone exclusive, there wouldn’t be a need to break up)

That’s largely to do with the particular individuals involved than dating vs. courtship.

I’d add that it’s OK to take one girl out one Saturday night and another girl the next and a third girl the following Saturday. As long as one is not developing concurrent physical relationships (which is icky, no matter how light it is) and hasn’t announced exclusivity with multiple people, there’s nothing wrong with that. “Would you come to the concert with me Saturday?” is a commitment for Saturday, not for life (or even until further notice).

There’s a really good anti-courtship piece that I can’t find right now that explains that system, which is what our grandparents understood by dating–the reason “going steady” was a thing was that there wasn’t the assumption that going out once or twice with somebody meant that you needed to either stick with them or break up. You could go out with somebody from time to time without “going steady.”

I think dating needs a second look. A lot of courtship ideas are good, but AFTER you’ve located a good prospect via old school dating.

 

[Xantippe]

Actually, marceleonidas, emotions have a lot to do with being the basis of relationships. You might hear the phrase sometime, “the heart has reasons of which reason knows nothing.” When you talk about basing a relationship on “agreement, not emotions,” you are describing something more like a business partnership than anything else.

To weigh in on your original post, I think it might be coming on a bit too strong, and might scare someone away and/or come across as creepy, to launch into a “let’s have a courtship” talk.

I do however think you should – in your words – rabidly chase beautiful girls, and doingit with noble intentions Why not do something in the middle of what you and your friends are proposing, i.e., do some “fun stuff,” and maybe suggest doing some other things, i.e., going to Mass or other activities too?

Yeah.

I’d also suggest toning down the “knight in shining armor” stuff, because honestly, you don’t know what that means at this point and I would strongly suggest not overpromising and then underperforming. You’ll eventually get tired rushing around constantly killing dragons for your lady love. At some point, you’ll say, “Hey, could you get this dragon? Cause I’ve got a game to watch tonight.”

As to what being a knight in shining armor means, it could mean some VERY unpleasant stuff. And even without your future wife being unfair to you–family responsibilities do require some unappetizing assignments: disposal of dead (and not dead) critters, hazmat operations to deal with vomit or leaky diapers, science fair, history fair, etc. The list of unpleasant possibilities is practically endless.

 

[Xantippe]

Wow, I honestly thought people on this forum would be very pro courtship.

Why? Nearly all of us met and wooed our spouses much more conventionally.

I do think I will stick to my guns on the time frame thing though. But let me clarify. Obviously if it turns out the person you are “courting” is an evil psycho then a breakup may be good/ necessary. I’m only saying that you should stick with the person even while things dont go exactly as hoped or planned.
I’ll tell you why:
Because “being stuck with someone” is a glimpse at married life. Ok so they did something bad or it turns out that after the first 2 weeks this person is not very exciting… you still need to give them time to show their true character. BUT all the while remembering that if at the end of it if you DID stick with them and neither of you had any strong affection or willingness to sacrifice for each-other then its OK just to go your seperate ways. No breakup, no drama.

**Don’t waste some poor girl’s time if you decide after two weeks that you don’t like her.

That’s actually a huge dating offense–stringing people along when you’ve already decided that this one is not going to go the distance.
**

Remember:
Our character is determined by the choices we make.
Our love is determined by the sacrifices we make.

You need TIME to see both.

Certainly, but early on, things should be smooth and easy (barring some real problem–cancer, a major accident, death in the family, etc.).

If things aren’t easy and fun early on, it’s a major red flag. You shouldn’t have to be gritting your teeth to endure your sweetie’s company two months into your “courtship.”

 

[KendraDZ1902]

Honestly, relationships should naturally evolve. There shouldn’t be a “I wanna date/court you for X amount of time, then reevaluate.” If ANY of my exboyfriends or husband would have said that, they wouldn’t have dated me.
I dated my husband for almost 2 months before we became exclusive. Even after our exclusive talk, it still naturally evolved. I don’t think anyone should be obligated to stick around for any reason while just dating/courting/whatever else you want to call it.
I don’t think that a relationship should start with talks about things that may or may never happen. If the person is right for you, you will eventually have these talks. They shouldn’t be a first or second date thing. Heck, my husband and I didn’t talk about marriage until almost a year of dating exclusively. It wasn’t a forced conversation, it wasn’t unnatural or uncomfortable.
I don’t like the idea of “courting” when it comes to the fact that it seems like it is ONLY for marriage. I am still friends with some of my exes, because we had an established friendship. Finding your spouse should be fun, not some rigid thing that has all of these established rules. No, you shouldn’t do things that are immoral, but you shouldn’t act married when you don’t really know this person.

 

[Xantippe]

Honestly, relationships should naturally evolve. There shouldn’t be a “I wanna date/court you for X amount of time, then reevaluate.” If ANY of my exboyfriends or husband would have said that, they wouldn’t have dated me.
I dated my husband for almost 2 months before we became exclusive. Even after our exclusive talk, it still naturally evolved. I don’t think anyone should be obligated to stick around for any reason while just dating/courting/whatever else you want to call it.
I don’t think that a relationship should start with talks about things that may or may never happen. If the person is right for you, you will eventually have these talks. They shouldn’t be a first or second date thing.

Yes. Particularly not at 18.

I don’t like the idea of “courting” when it comes to the fact that it seems like it is ONLY for marriage. I am still friends with some of my exes, because we had an established friendship. Finding your spouse should be fun, not some rigid thing that has all of these established rules. No, you shouldn’t do things that are immoral, but you shouldn’t act married when you don’t really know this person.

Right. The courting system seems to encourage people to overcommit too early to people that they barely know, as if prospective spouses were totally interchangeable.

 

[underacloud]

Anyone who thinks courtship/dating should be emotionless, rational, and calm ought to read the Song of Songs.

marceleonidas, as others have addressed, there is plenty of middle ground between your ideas of dating and courtship. Take the best of both approaches and work out what’s right for you in your current situation.

Please consider though - asking someone to date is not too confronting. You just want to spend some time together and see how it goes. But asking someone to court is confronting - you are asking them to consider you as a spouse from the get go.

 

[Elizium23]

Anyone who thinks courtship/dating should be emotionless, rational, and calm ought to read the Song of Songs.

marceleonidas, as others have addressed, there is plenty of middle ground between your ideas of dating and courtship. Take the best of both approaches and work out what’s right for you in your current situation.

Please consider though - asking someone to date is not too confronting. You just want to spend some time together and see how it goes. But asking someone to court is confronting - you are asking them to consider you as a spouse from the get go.

What’s the difference? In Catholic belief, dating must lead to marriage. It cannot be twisted to some other purpose. Dating is not for “hooking up”, “exploring options”, “questioning sexuality”, “having a no-strings good time”. Catholics should always be up-front that dating equals courting for us. Especially in these modern times, where the concept of dating is so perverted and twisted that it is unrecognizable.

 

[underacloud]

What’s the difference? In Catholic belief, dating must lead to marriage. It cannot be twisted to some other purpose. Dating is not for “hooking up”, “exploring options”, “questioning sexuality”, “having a no-strings good time”. Catholics should always be up-front that dating equals courting for us. Especially in these modern times, where the concept of dating is so perverted and twisted that it is unrecognizable.

I agree on the general principle. Yes, we should date for the purpose of considering marriage. But the difference is what I was referring to; what it is that you’re asking of the other person.

Dating - you ask them to spend some time with you.

Courting - you ask them to consider you as a spouse.

I don’t think one needs to discuss things so directly in the first instance. After a few dates the two people may feel things are developing well, and can then talk about some expectations. But there’s no need to place such a burden on those first few dates.

 

[KendraDZ1902]

What’s the difference? In Catholic belief, dating must lead to marriage. It cannot be twisted to some other purpose. Dating is not for “hooking up”, “exploring options”, “questioning sexuality”, “having a no-strings good time”. Catholics should always be up-front that dating equals courting for us. Especially in these modern times, where the concept of dating is so perverted and twisted that it is unrecognizable.

Dating someone doesn’t always equal a marriage. I have to say that I am really glad that I didn’t marry my first boyfriend or the second one or even the third one. Fourth time was the charm for me.
You can absolutely date someone (exclusively or not) and do NOTHING immoral. You can go to the movies, go on hikes, dinner, game nights at a friend’s house, the possibilities of moral activities are kind of endless.
You can NEVER date and still hook up with people or question your sexuality or have a no strings good time.
I think dating IS exploring your options. You have the option of staying with this person or breaking up. You have the option of deciding that you want to see how said relationship is going to pan out. You have the option of deciding what exactly you want in a partner. You have the option of deciding to change your mind on what you want in a partner.
It seems like courting doesn’t give you very many options. I don’t like that.

 

[Elizium23]

Dating someone doesn’t always equal a marriage. I have to say that I am really glad that I didn’t marry my first boyfriend or the second one or even the third one. Fourth time was the charm for me.
You can absolutely date someone (exclusively or not) and do NOTHING immoral. You can go to the movies, go on hikes, dinner, game nights at a friend’s house, the possibilities of moral activities are kind of endless.
You can NEVER date and still hook up with people or question your sexuality or have a no strings good time.
I think dating IS exploring your options. You have the option of staying with this person or breaking up. You have the option of deciding that you want to see how said relationship is going to pan out. You have the option of deciding what exactly you want in a partner. You have the option of deciding to change your mind on what you want in a partner.
It seems like courting doesn’t give you very many options. I don’t like that.

What I am saying is that dating can never be used by a Catholic to create a relationship with someone who we would never think of marrying. I do not date married women, I do not date teenagers, I do not date men, I do not date abortion supporters, I do not date Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc. If we find ourselves on a bona fide date with someone who could not possibly be our spouse then we are doing it wrong.

 

[KendraDZ1902]

What I am saying is that dating can never be used by a Catholic to create a relationship with someone who we would never think of marrying. I do not date married women, I do not date teenagers, I do not date men, I do not date abortion supporters, I do not date Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc. If we find ourselves on a bona fide date with someone who could not possibly be our spouse then we are doing it wrong.

I think that you can have a few initial dates to learn if the person is pro life or what religion they are. I think if you are exclusively dating, then you should know those things about the person.
If when I met my husband, he hammered me with personal questions like that, I wouldn’t have given him my number. Lol:blush: