Coveting thy neighbors wife?

[passivesquid]

now im only 18 years old so dont get excited!

ive known this girl along time and she has a boy friend.(this i know)and im starting to have feelings for her. when im with her im not nervous like with other girls and the world just seems right. but she does have aboyfriend of 2-3 years. are my feelings a direct violation of the commandment thow shall not covet thy neighbors wife?(even though nobody in this litle triangle or what ever shape it is, is actually married) does it count as a sin? if so why?! its not my fault. is it bad that i enjoy myslef with her while shes already in arelationship and (though i wish niehter her nor her bf anyharm)i want her for myself? i dont understand! is this god testing me? (shes been dropping some pretty big signs that she might be breaking up with him and we fit so well together,(our teacher mistook us for acouple). i just wish i knew what gods plan is (is he testing me?, is he finally giving me what ive been longing for?, or am i just frackin crazy?!) ijust dont know anymore!

 

[JezuUfamTobie]

(Doesn’t this belong in the moral theology section? )

I can tell you that the fact that she has a boyfriend is completely irrelevant to whether or not your thoughts and feelings are sinful.

If your thoughts are chaste, I don’t think you’re committing any sins simply by feeling attracted to a particular girl. Pray for the virtues of wisdom and prudence, though. I am sure you are striving to make all your thoughts and actions glorify God, and you will need prudence in order to know the best course of action. It would be very tempting for many guys to slip into manipulative or uncharitable behavior in your situation.

You’re never going to know all the details of God’s plan for you in this life (so you might as well stop trying to guess … this is the voice of experience) but you can be sure that whatever happens, you will be provided with sufficient grace to respond in the best way possible. Everything that God allows to happen to you is for purposes of calling you closer to Him, even if it doesn’t appear that way at the time.

Bottom line: unless you’re lusting, it sounds like these feelings are normal and not sinful. Just don’t give these thoughts permission to lead you into sin.

 

[Rawb]

I have been in that situation before, (all the great girls are always taken!) and when I find myself there I pray for their relationship. I don’t like wishing bad things on other people, and if they’re dating then they care for each other and a break up would hurt them. As soon as a girl has a boyfriend I automatically place her in the ‘taken’ category, and until she is no longer dating it is not my place to try and ‘drop little hints’ or ‘flirt harmlessly’ with her. It is especially not right to point out flaws in a boyfriend (unless of course they’re abusive). Also if this girl came to me and asked me if I think she should break up with her boyfriend I refuse to answer either way.

That’s my experience with this. Once I worked out this system my life became a lot more peaceful!

 

[chevalier]

As much as the answers above from JezuUfamTobie (I must finally address you about that blatant use of Polish one day, BTW ) and Rawb may seem different, they are both great and fit within the same scope.

Attraction is a normal thing. Married people also feel attracted to others and there are such others that feel attracted to married people. Some people are able to joke and make fun of it, some are more on the serious, intense side and will stay away.

What hasn’t been mentioned is that boyfriends aren’t husbands and girlfriends are wives. This by far does not mean that everything goes (should one even negate any moral obligations following specifically from a romantic relationship, there’s always the question of justice (truth, promise) and charity (how we deal with others’ feelings)).

If this helps, I’ll tell you how I (try to) deal with it: I don’t believe that a romantic relationship completely puts the girl out of question and out of the pool. At the same time, I’m not the judge of someone else’s relationship. I’ve never really had the guts to conclude that I’d be a better boyfriend and bring about the end of a romantic relationship - even if, as I said, it’s not marriage.

As for the definition of coveting, on the sexual side of things, if you “look at her to lust after her” (or obviously if you go further), you commit adultery with her in your heart - if you don’t, you don’t. The non-sexual aspect of coveting is a bit more elusive and more difficult to grasp, but since the VI deals with sexual things and the IX in the Bible mentions coveting slaves or animals or material possessions as well, perhaps compare it to wanting to steal a close person - a daughter, a son, a mother, a father, from someone. Would a desire to steal someone’s girlfriend because she’s such a beautiful, kind, smart, generally amiable girl, count? I believe yes, in some way, although we need to point out a girlfriend is not a wife, so it’s not the same as with a married woman. She’s sacramentally single, so to say. However, rather than thinking, “I so wish she were my girlfriend instead,” it might be better to think, “I so wish I could have a girlfriend like she,” or even better, “I’m so happy for her boyfriend. I trust in God’s mercy I’ll be similarly gifted one day.” Trust, trust, trust, trust. You never know what’s going to happen tomorrow. No matter how great a match someone feels to be for you, there might always be someone more your type or more to your needs. God’s mercy is infinite and the fact that He has created such a wonderful girl doesn’t limit His power in any way. Contrary, it only shows how great it is. Jesus said God cared for every single bird, so how much more for each and every single one of us. Trust Him.

If you care for some advice, I would leave the whole situation to God, actually. You don’t really want to go through the hassle of second-guessing or whatever else a relationship with a person in turmoil might bring. She leaves him for you, what next? She might get disappointed with you and go back to him. Or she might find someone still better and leave you in favour of that person. Whichever happens to her current boyfriend, might happen to you. If she wants to break up because that relationship doesn’t work for her, let her. But it might be better not to teach her the habit of upgrading boyfriends (swapping for a better model). And definitely better not to teach her the habit of flirting when she’s “taken”. No matter what people say about there arising no religious obligations from a pre-marital romantic relationship, flirting around is just sleazy.

 

[BobP123]

now im only 18 years old so dont get excited!

ive known this girl along time and she has a boy friend.(this i know)and im starting to have feelings for her. when im with her im not nervous like with other girls and the world just seems right. but she does have aboyfriend of 2-3 years. are my feelings a direct violation of the commandment thow shall not covet thy neighbors wife?(even though nobody in this litle triangle or what ever shape it is, is actually married) does it count as a sin? if so why?! its not my fault. is it bad that i enjoy myslef with her while shes already in arelationship and (though i wish niehter her nor her bf anyharm)i want her for myself? i dont understand! is this god testing me? (shes been dropping some pretty big signs that she might be breaking up with him and we fit so well together,(our teacher mistook us for acouple). i just wish i knew what gods plan is (is he testing me?, is he finally giving me what ive been longing for?, or am i just frackin crazy?!) ijust dont know anymore!

Technically, you’re not coveting your neighbor’s wife. But you MAY be coveting your neighbor’s goods, also sinful. (At least some look at “significant other” as that.) Tough call for me to make though.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

now im only 18 years old so dont get excited!

ive known this girl along time and she has a boy friend.(this i know)and im starting to have feelings for her. when im with her im not nervous like with other girls and the world just seems right. but she does have aboyfriend of 2-3 years. are my feelings a direct violation of the commandment thow shall not covet thy neighbors wife?(even though nobody in this litle triangle or what ever shape it is, is actually married) does it count as a sin? if so why?! its not my fault. is it bad that i enjoy myslef with her while shes already in arelationship and (though i wish niehter her nor her bf anyharm)i want her for myself? i dont understand! is this god testing me? (shes been dropping some pretty big signs that she might be breaking up with him and we fit so well together,(our teacher mistook us for acouple). i just wish i knew what gods plan is (is he testing me?, is he finally giving me what ive been longing for?, or am i just frackin crazy?!) ijust dont know anymore!

No. Socially we recognise a “boyfriend / girlfriend” relationship, and the boyfriend might well want to claim certain moral rights. He doesn’t have them. In the absence of any marriage you are perfectly free to try to persuade this girl to leave him for yourself, in fact since you are a virtuous person whilst he is not it would be a good thing to do so.

However I would caution once the physical attraction wears off, the type of girl who has one failed relationship behind her might not be as attractive as one who hasn’t had any prior boyfriends.

 

[passivesquid]

welli suppose you guys are right i have to leave in gods hands (proverbs 3:5)right

but i also seeyou guys jumping in on my side that her bf is imoral and or abusive, i didnt say anything like that! (ive never actualy met him so i cant judge). i hope he isnt!, i truly do, i want nothing bad for either of them. but im going to have to just let god’s plan go throuhg (“thy will be done” right guys?!)

 

[Mirdath]

However I would caution once the physical attraction wears off, the type of girl who has one failed relationship behind her might not be as attractive as one who hasn’t had any prior boyfriends.

Wait, what? How did you get to that conclusion?

First off, passivesquid didn’t say anything at all about mere physical attraction; second, it’s just not true. It’s like saying an applicant for a job is less attractive to employers if he or she has ever worked at another place. People don’t necessarily meet the loves of their lives on the first date.

 

[lizaanne]

However I would caution once the physical attraction wears off, the type of girl who has one failed relationship behind her might not be as attractive as one who hasn’t had any prior boyfriends.

What an absolutely horrible thing to say! You are implying that anyone who has ever been in a relationship prior to marriage is damaged goods! That’s just pitifully wrong.

~Liza

 

[chevalier]

No. Socially we recognise a “boyfriend / girlfriend” relationship, and the boyfriend might well want to claim certain moral rights. He doesn’t have them. In the absence of any marriage you are perfectly free to try to persuade this girl to leave him for yourself, in fact since you are a virtuous person whilst he is not it would be a good thing to do so.

By that logic, he wouldn’t acquire any rights either, so it would be quite pointless an endeavour from start. And I don’t think we have enough data to judge the current boyfriend as unvirtuous or even the Opening Poster as virtuous (with respect, of course, and I’m just pointing out the lack of data - assumptions and benefits of doubt which should be applied are a different matter altogether ).

welli suppose you guys are right i have to leave in gods hands (proverbs 3:5)right

but i also seeyou guys jumping in on my side that her bf is imoral and or abusive, i didnt say anything like that! (ive never actualy met him so i cant judge). i hope he isnt!, i truly do, i want nothing bad for either of them. but im going to have to just let god’s plan go throuhg (“thy will be done” right guys?!)

also.

Wait, what? How did you get to that conclusion?

First off, passivesquid didn’t say anything at all about mere physical attraction; second, it’s just not true. It’s like saying an applicant for a job is less attractive to employers if he or she has ever worked at another place. People don’t necessarily meet the loves of their lives on the first date.

While I agree with the last sentence, the whole analogy doesn’t work, I’m afraid. Many employers value experience as much or more than the ability to get a fresh graduate and mould him. At the same time it seems to be generally true that people who are more moral themselves often pretend to be the first - even some sexually active guys prefer virgins (because of sick reasons but anyway, we’re talking about facts, not judging them). You didn’t ask for my opinion, but regardless:

Lack of previous partners: my reaction would be increased care not to hurt the girl, not to exploit her in the slightest in anything, not in any way to inflict a trauma on her

Some previous partners: my reaction would be neutral. If I had access to the data, I would draw some conclusions from the pattern in the selection.

Somewhat many previous partners: my reaction would be cautious and somewhat reserved, to an extent. While a negative effect would be limited by my choice not to judge, there would be positive effect. A person with many acquaintances, could have beens etc may have some valuable life experience, which could be helpful in a relationship, this is not true about the modern-style partner jumping.

Many previous partners, history of having multiple partners or cheating, open relationships etc (unrepented) - run away. Many previous partners may be a mere factual coincidence, but the latter stuff had better be repented and with some change being visible. Remember we aren’t judging a person’s holiness, we’re talking about finding a partner. Just the fact we don’t condemn someone or his acts even, doesn’t mean he’s a suitable partner.

What an absolutely horrible thing to say! You are implying that anyone who has ever been in a relationship prior to marriage is damaged goods! That’s just pitifully wrong.

~Liza

No. He isn’t even stating his opinion, in fact. How cruel can facts be? If there exists a tendency to view people who have been in a large number of relationships (not talking about “has ever been”, please let’s not exaggerate) as damaged goods, there’s nothing cruel in stating it.

 

[Mirdath]

While I agree with the last sentence, the whole analogy doesn’t work, I’m afraid. Many employers value experience as much or more than the ability to get a fresh graduate and mould him.

That’s kinda the point I was making. I work in a technical field, where actual on-the-job experience is far more valuable than a degree. Those who’ve had previous work experience are more attractive candidates for employment.

Somewhat many previous partners: my reaction would be cautious and somewhat reserved, to an extent. While a negative effect would be limited by my choice not to judge, there would be positive effect. A person with many acquaintances, could have beens etc may have some valuable life experience, which could be helpful in a relationship, this is not true about the modern-style partner jumping.

Many previous partners, history of having multiple partners or cheating, open relationships etc (unrepented) - run away. Many previous partners may be a mere factual coincidence, but the latter stuff had better be repented and with some change being visible. Remember we aren’t judging a person’s holiness, we’re talking about finding a partner. Just the fact we don’t condemn someone or his acts even, doesn’t mean he’s a suitable partner.

I more or less agree with the others, but you missed a little here. There are situations that don’t necessarily fit those broad guidelines. Again from my own experience: I’m engaged to someone who’s a good deal older than I am. Of course I don’t have as much ‘experience’ in comparison – that’s just how it works. It’s not a sore point or a warning flag, it’s a function of our relative ages.

No. He isn’t even stating his opinion, in fact. How cruel can facts be? If there exists a tendency to view people who have been in a large number of relationships (not talking about “has ever been”, please let’s not exaggerate) as damaged goods, there’s nothing cruel in stating it.

Actually, that’s exactly what Malcolm said. One previous boyfriend, no? It’s right there. That’s an opinion, and what’s more a nonsensical and largely-unfounded one.

 

[JezuUfamTobie]

I guess we’re getting kind of off topic, but this is rather interesting.

It reminds me of something that my English teacher told our class one time in Catholic high school, after he saw the movie American Beauty (which I have incidentally never seen). Apparently the protagonist in the movie refrains from having an adulterous encounter with a teenage girl, upon discovering that she is a virgin. If she had not been a virgin, he would have taken advantage of her. My teacher was very disturbed by this film and he gave us a lecture on how we should treat all people with equal kindness and dignity, regardless of who they are or what they have done.

Of course this issue hits rather close to home for me. I have no doubt that Malcolm McLean’s comment is true of some people. A few months ago I was accepting regular phone calls from a Catholic fellow interested in courting me. One evening, during an otherwise pleasant conversation, he said very sincerely said something akin to, “You sure are lucky I’m interested in you, with you being damaged goods and having a kid and all.” (where’s that vomit icon again?)

Obviously he’s out of the running now (was rather disrespectful toward his mother, too, but that’s another story).

I guess everyone has their own opinion regarding people who have had other relationships, whether those relationships involved sexual acts or merely keeping chaste company together. But as a woman, I would not accept poorer treatment from a prospective suitor, just because I’m not Prospero’s daughter. I’m pretty sure I’m worth way more than that.

While you’re perfectly free to be uninterested in a particular person based on whatever qualities you please, I truly hope you gentlemen wouldn’t actually adjust your standards of kindness and gentleness, depending on the dating history of a girl you have decided to pursue.

(And Polish rocks, of course …er, not that I know any.)

You sound like you’re more at peace about this today, passivesquid. That’s good!

 

[AndyF]

now im only 18 years old so dont get excited!

ive known this girl along time and she has a boy friend.(this i know)and im starting to have feelings for her. when im with her im not nervous like with other girls and the world just seems right. but she does have aboyfriend of 2-3 years. are my feelings a direct violation of the commandment thow shall not covet thy neighbors wife?(even though nobody in this litle triangle or what ever shape it is, is actually married) does it count as a sin? if so why?! its not my fault. is it bad that i enjoy myslef with her while shes already in arelationship and (though i wish niehter her nor her bf anyharm)i want her for myself? i dont understand! is this god testing me? (shes been dropping some pretty big signs that she might be breaking up with him and we fit so well together,(our teacher mistook us for acouple). i just wish i knew what gods plan is (is he testing me?, is he finally giving me what ive been longing for?, or am i just frackin crazy?!) ijust dont know anymore!

Relax.

As long as the ring isn’t on the finger and there are no marriage bans, she’s available …technically, unless of course she says she isn’t. Then again that always imposed a challenge for me and I liked challenges, but that’s another story.

You may be barred from sexual expression, but the saying “cherchez la femme” is still very much alive in Catholic environs and is healthy.

Ahhhh, 18.

AndyF (61 dern!)

 

[chevalier]

That’s kinda the point I was making. I work in a technical field, where actual on-the-job experience is far more valuable than a degree. Those who’ve had previous work experience are more attractive candidates for employment.

Yeah, practically any work here as well, though from what I’ve heard, certain big corporations prefer fresh graduates and don’t even care as much what exactly they studied at uni. I’ve heard from people saying they prefer mates with previous experience or even that they would never want to be with someone who had never had anyone before (or with a virgin), but I think that’s not so common among Catholics.

I more or less agree with the others, but you missed a little here. There are situations that don’t necessarily fit those broad guidelines. Again from my own experience: I’m engaged to someone who’s a good deal older than I am. Of course I don’t have as much ‘experience’ in comparison – that’s just how it works. It’s not a sore point or a warning flag, it’s a function of our relative ages.

Yeah, I agree there. I meant romantic experience relative to age. Some people will think, “she’s middle-aged and has never had a boyfriend, that’s scary; she’s surely dysfunctional in some way,” others will think, “he’s barely adult and he’s had six relationship and a dozen romances… that’s scary.” I think people want some sort of balance.

Actually, that’s exactly what Malcolm said. One previous boyfriend, no? It’s right there. That’s an opinion, and what’s more a nonsensical and largely-unfounded one.

Ooops… Yes, I apologise. It looks like I was confused. I still can’t figure for sure what Malcolm exactly wanted to say by that. I suppose some guys feeling better being first boyfriends. Now that you say, it does look a bit like an opinion rather than a statement of trend, contrary to what I had thought.

You may be barred from sexual expression, but the saying “cherchez la femme” is still very much alive in Catholic environs and is healthy.

Many Catholic environments seem to think everything goes just so long as there’s no sex, but certainly you aren’t implying that doing some chase for the fun of it is a healthy thing?

 

[chevalier]

My teacher was very disturbed by this film and he gave us a lecture on how we should treat all people with equal kindness and dignity, regardless of who they are or what they have done.

That is correct. Except perhaps what some have earned and others have not, but the human dignity and divine semblance we have all the same.

A few months ago I was accepting regular phone calls from a Catholic fellow interested in courting me. One evening, during an otherwise pleasant conversation, he said very sincerely said something akin to, “You sure are lucky I’m interested in you, with you being damaged goods and having a kid and all.” (where’s that vomit icon again?)

Anyone who thinks he’s doing you a favour by being interested is probably having some problems with his own self-esteem. He wouldn’t be doing that favour selflessly, so to say, so there must exist in his mind a reason for doing so.

Obviously he’s out of the running now (was rather disrespectful toward his mother, too, but that’s another story).

Good riddance. One has the right to consider the other’s situation if one is to consider courtship or marriage, but that kind of attitude, let alone talk… It’s a good thing you stand up for yourself and I hope you’ll find a reverent gentleman.

I guess everyone has their own opinion regarding people who have had other relationships, whether those relationships involved sexual acts or merely keeping chaste company together. But as a woman, I would not accept poorer treatment from a prospective suitor, just because I’m not Prospero’s daughter. I’m pretty sure I’m worth way more than that.

Yes, in that you are completely correct. I don’t get it why people actually make moves on those whom they consider unworthy of themselves. Logically, it’s counterproductive (if not actually self-contradicting, especially if HRH is “dropping his standards” because he can’t actually find a mate).

While you’re perfectly free to be uninterested in a particular person based on whatever qualities you please, I truly hope you gentlemen wouldn’t actually adjust your standards of kindness and gentleness, depending on the dating history of a girl you have decided to pursue.

…Or not to pursue. All the same, as far as kindness goes. One’s not a gentleman just to one lady. Kindness and gentleness is not about the receiver, it’s about the giver - below a certain level, one doesn’t go. As for history, it’s all about unrepentance - one doesn’t start a relationship with an unrepentant cheater not because of some personal disdain but because one doesn’t want cheating to happen to him. Repentance interrupts bad histories (there’s nothing that can’t be repented of, and the greatest saints had been the greatest sinners). Relationship jumping is not so much bad history (“judge not” anyway) as it is a sign of danger to potential mates. Out of self-preservation does one avoid probable disasters.

(And Polish rocks, of course …er, not that I know any.)

(It’s all in the name, hehe. )

You sound like you’re more at peace about this today, passivesquid. That’s good!

Yup, peace is what you need in such cases. Chaos only breeds more chaos. Peace is order.

 

[chevalier]

Oh, and:

Prospero’s daughter

You’re God’s. That’s bigger. Besides, it takes an idiot not to realise what a treasure a Catholic girl is and any man should take a bullet rather than offend one. His loss not yours and hope nothing I said hurt you in any way (I got the impression it might have been something from my post and I might have been a clumsy wordsmith as I was in a bit of a hurry). My apologies if I said anything insensitive.

 

[Bobby_Jim]

Just keep your eyes open and be aware that the woman God has picked out as your wife may be right in front of you, while you are pining away for this other woman.

I found in my own life I had a pattern of pining away for women who were, for the moment, unavailable by virtue of having long-term boyfriends. It’s not a happy state to be in. And I don’t think it’s healthy to try to “wait it out”, in hopes that they will break up eventually. You hope for the best for the other person. If they have a boyfriend for 2-3 years, I would hope that means it’s a healthy relationship progressing toward marriage. Meanwhile, the “forlorn lover” state can become like a defense mechanism. You live that way so long, the pain and longing become your friend and your crutch, and you have a hard time forming a “real” relationship, and may even find yourself sabotoging relationships so you can move back into that perverse comfort zone. So my advice, if she’s taken, just move on.

 

[chevalier]

Yeah, that’s some great advice. Reminds me of my own situations from the past. Avoid all those screwed situations, like with “taken” people, antisocial people, people with relationship issues. They shouldn’t be off limits per se, but avoid such situations that can make you unable to enjoy a real relationship. Some people are really messed over by previous relationships and it makes new relationships all that much more difficult. Don’t get yourself in any waiting and hoping schemes and avoid thinking like a victim. I made that mistake and while it didn’t directly destroy my relationships afterwards, it made life more difficult for some of the girls, such as my last ex (even if she split up with me on the grounds of religious disagreements).

 

[JezuUfamTobie]

(It’s all in the name, hehe. )

Those would be three of the four Polish words I know, heh.

And thank you for your kind words above. You didn’t offend me at all! I was just curious to explore the topic a little more, since there was one part of post #10 that didn’t ring quite right to me and I generally find myself in agreement with everything you post.

I think you and Bobby Jim have made a very important point in those last couple posts. To a person with a good heart, there is something so very attractive about making sacrifices for another person, but this tendency can lead one into unhealthy relationships if one doesn’t know what to watch out for–especially romantically speaking. I think you both have some very wise words there and I hope readers will heed them.

 

[briang72]

now im only 18 years old so dont get excited!

ive known this girl along time and she has a boy friend.(this i know)and im starting to have feelings for her. when im with her im not nervous like with other girls and the world just seems right. but she does have aboyfriend of 2-3 years. are my feelings a direct violation of the commandment thow shall not covet thy neighbors wife?(even though nobody in this litle triangle or what ever shape it is, is actually married) does it count as a sin?

I don’t think this would be a sin. She is not married. You are not married.

if so why?! its not my fault. is it bad that i enjoy myslef with her while shes already in arelationship and (though i wish niehter her nor her bf anyharm)i want her for myself? i dont understand! is this god testing me? (shes been dropping some pretty big signs that she might be breaking up with him and we fit so well together,(our teacher mistook us for acouple).

God wouldn’t make you suffer in this manner. If He means for you to be with this girl, it will happen. Beware of your own will, though. “Dropping some pretty big signs” is something to beware. Unfortunately, you may be seeing things that you want to believe are signs from her, and she has no idea that she is putting such thoughts into your head. I’m speaking from experience here. I would ask her what her intentions are in your relationship. Let her know how you feel about her. If she just wants a friendship and nothing more, then for your own sake, don’t spend much time with her anymore. If she shares the same feelings for you, tell her its time to let her current boyfriend go so that the two of you can focus on each other. In either situation, pray for God to reveal His will in the matter. If the two of you decide to date seriously, and the relationship progresses, make sure that God becomes the center of it. Pray together. Again, I am speaking from experience here. Without God, the relationship is missing the most important Ingredient.

i just wish i knew what gods plan is (is he testing me?, is he finally giving me what ive been longing for?, or am i just frackin crazy?!) ijust dont know anymore!

You aren’t crazy. Praise God that He has placed this girl in your life, and at the very least given you hope that there are such girls in the world that attract you!

I’m praying for you!