Cowboy Mass

[tadly]

Joan M:

Because it is not allowed! First of all - I do not see any priest wearing a chasuble, which should be worn at all Masses. Secondly, at least in one picture, it was clear that there was no crucifix. Thirdly, even in the old cowboy movies I would expect men to remove their hats - it has always been the custom for men to have bare heads in church. Priests and deacons wearing hats in church is gross disrespect.

No one ever said that “a service” (it really grinds me to hear the Holy Mass referred to as a “service” - to me a service denotes something Protestant, not Catholic) cannot have cowboys, but even cowboys must be held to the standards of respect that we all know - no hats in church.

I’m sorry, I meant mass. I’ve been saying service for almost 40 years.
Old habits die hard.
I didn’t mean to offend anyone.

 

[severinus]

Graven images of horses! Live chickens in the sanctuary! Wicker chickens next to the altar! No crucifix! Hats on men!

Oh, I can’t wait until the fundies get hold of this.

 

[NetNuncio]

If this wasn’t so incredibly sad it would be incredibly funny.

adam

 

[JKirkLVNV]

tadly:

I am being told on another thread that this is allowed.
So why is everyone so upset? The church documents do not say that a service can’t have cowboys. I don’t like it, but people should be forgiving of other people’s taste.

I don’t wear a cowboy hat or boots but they do in Texas. maybe it’s a regional thing.

I’m from Texas. If a man wears a hat to Mass, he takes it off.

The Mass doesn’t have “themes,” as such. It has feasts. There is no cowboy feast.

What the priests wear to mass is laid out in the rubrics. Boots? I’ve seen black cowboy boots on a priest. That’s okay. But a hat? During mass? Only if it’s a biretta or miter.

 

[bear06]

threej_lc:

I’ve got to say that if I only had to choose between 2 illicit masses such as the cowboy Mass or an SSPX Mass, I would choose the cowboy one. Why you ask? I would never go to something illicit that was attractive to me. The last thing I need is to be attracted to something that’s illicit. I would go an suffer at the Mass that straight out repulses me. Our Lord is there at either Mass but I’d choose to go to the illicit Mass that causes me the most pain and offer that suffering to God in reparation for sins against his Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. I’m not going to the one where I get off easily.

In reality land, however, I’d just drive far like I do now and go to a licit Mass.

Very profound. Thank you.
Josh

Thanks. People have to look at where their downfall could be and this is not the same for everyone.

 

[Searching13]

Please don’t all jump on me at once.

Are there any major abuses in this Mass? (not ssure if material of sacred vessels is major, but II don’t think it is)

As was pointed out, this is an outdoor Mass at a festival. I personally am very glad a Mass was celebrated.

I love Latin and gregorian chant, and I also love the more contemporary Mass. I love outdoor Masses. Years ago, I attended one in Hawaii—I am really glad I didn’t know enough about the GIRM to worry about minor abuses.

 

[tadly]

JKirkLVNV:

I’m from Texas. If a man wears a hat to Mass, he takes it off.

The Mass doesn’t have “themes,” as such. It has feasts. There is no cowboy feast.

What the priests wear to mass is laid out in the rubrics. Boots? I’ve seen black cowboy boots on a priest. That’s okay. But a hat? During mass? Only if it’s a biretta or miter.

Well now I know.
I would never wear a hat in church, but I have to ask, is it not allowed?
People here seem to say that if it’s not said, it’s not wrong.
Is it wrong in a mass?

 

[tadly]

Searching13:

Please don’t all jump on me at once.

Are there any major abuses in this Mass? (not ssure if material of sacred vessels is major, but II don’t think it is)

As was pointed out, this is an outdoor Mass at a festival. I personally am very glad a Mass was celebrated.

I love Latin and gregorian chant, and I also love the more contemporary Mass. I love outdoor Masses. Years ago, I attended one in Hawaii—I am really glad I didn’t know enough about the GIRM to worry about minor abuses.

What is the difference between an abuse and a minor abuse?
Aren’t they both wrong?

If I roll through a stop sign, it’s not as wrong as blowing it completely but if a cop sees me, I still get a ticket.

 

[Searching13]

tadly:

What is the difference between an abuse and a minor abuse?
Aren’t they both wrong?

If I roll through a stop sign, it’s not as wrong as blowing it completely but if a cop sees me, I still get a ticket.

Sorry—I’m in a rush now, but the RS document does list the difference—it is on the USCCB site, and also the Vatican site.

 

[tadly]

Searching13:

Sorry—I’m in a rush now, but the RS document does list the difference—it is on the USCCB site, and also the Vatican site.

I don’t need a list, just would like to know if they are both wrong.

 

[PJR]

tadly:

Well now I know.
I would never wear a hat in church, but I have to ask, is it not allowed?
People here seem to say that if it’s not said, it’s not wrong.
Is it wrong in a mass?

Hats on men in a building is not considered proper, unless you’re Jewish, and I don’t think cowboy hats count.

If the Mass was outdoors it was probably just a tacky gesture. I may be wrong, but I don’t recall the hats on the priests when at the altar. Maybe they had them on after Mass or something in spirit of whatever the festival was. I think the point is that it may have been a really tacky music stage, and probably not the best idea to have on hats-mostly because you can be damned sure someone is going to take a picture of it and put it on a website that implies horrific scandal-but there’s nothing wrong with having an outdoor Mass at a large festival. The pictures could be shown out of context too.

As to the vessels being what appears to be pottery, I don’t know if that is really all that scandalous and the picture could be from a few years ago before that issue was clarified.

I still think it is great that there were enough Catholics gathered for a weekend festival that a Mass could be offered. I wish the liturgy police would not try to make it sound like they took the cross off the altar and replaced it with a guitar, yada yada. It was a MUSIC FESTIVAL and they used the stage as the altar. It was probably the most sensible place to do it. I doubt if any participants thought they were at a pagan ritual to worship the guitar.

 

[tadly]

PJR:

Hats on men in a building is not considered proper, unless you’re Jewish, and I don’t think cowboy hats count.

If the Mass was outdoors it was probably just a tacky gesture. I may be wrong, but I don’t recall the hats on the priests when at the altar. Maybe they had them on after Mass or something in spirit of whatever the festival was. I think the point is that it may have been a really tacky music stage, and probably not the best idea to have on hats-mostly because you can be damned sure someone is going to take a picture of it and put it on a website that implies horrific scandal-but there’s nothing wrong with having an outdoor Mass at a large festival. The pictures could be shown out of context too.

As to the vessels being what appears to be pottery, I don’t know if that is really all that scandalous and the picture could be from a few years ago before that issue was clarified.

I still think it is great that there were enough Catholics gathered for a weekend festival that a Mass could be offered. I wish the liturgy police would not try to make it sound like they took the cross off the altar and replaced it with a guitar, yada yada. It was a MUSIC FESTIVAL and they used the stage as the altar. It was probably the most sensible place to do it. I doubt if any participants thought they were at a pagan ritual to worship the guitar.

I think what you are saying makes sense.

 

[PJR]

tadly:

I think what you are saying makes sense.

HA HA fooled you!!! Just kidding. Thanks. P

 

[Joan_M]

PJR:

I wish the liturgy police would not try to make it sound like they took the cross off the altar and replaced it with a guitar, yada yada. It was a MUSIC FESTIVAL and they used the stage as the altar. It was probably the most sensible place to do it. I doubt if any participants thought they were at a pagan ritual to worship the guitar.

I am one of those who get referred to as the “liturgy police” and I am totally fed up and disgusted with the insults (“yada yada yada” etc.).

The Mass is the Universal Liturgy of the Church and it should be celebrated exactly as is laid down in the General Instructions of the Roman Missal and the rubrics. Anything else not a mistake (which is something that happens, but is not a regularly repeated thing) is an abuse. Of course some abuses are more serious than others, but we should not be subjected to any abuses. The priest should simply read the black (the words) and do the red (the instructions) and there would be no abuses.

Being called “liturgy police” is also an abuse. It is insulting. Kindly stop - and this is directed at PJR and all other posters who take umbrage at those of us who want an authentic liturgy instead of having to endure abuses.

 

[PJR]

Joan M:

I am one of those who get referred to as the “liturgy police” and I am totally fed up and disgusted with the insults (“yada yada yada” etc.).

The Mass is the Universal Liturgy of the Church and it should be celebrated exactly as is laid down in the General Instructions of the Roman Missal and the rubrics. Anything else not a mistake (which is something that happens, but is not a regularly repeated thing) is an abuse. Of course some abuses are more serious than others, but we should not be subjected to any abuses. The priest should simply read the black (the words) and do the red (the instructions) and there would be no abuses.

Being called “liturgy police” is also an abuse. It is insulting. Kindly stop - and this is directed at PJR and all other posters who take umbrage at those of us who want an authentic liturgy instead of having to endure abuses.

I don’t think I directed my post specifially at you, but if you found insult I’m truly sorry. I am just of the opinion that it was just as insulting to the priests and participants in the picture to draw conclusions as to their intention to not only commit abuses but lapse into pagan ritual.

Do you know that those priests did not read the black and follow the red? Do you have it on good authority that they replaced a crucifix with a guitar? Are we absolutely sure that the hats were being worn during the Eucharistic prayer? We don’t know if they did or didn’t. Maybe we should not always jump to the worst conclusions. That is also insulting to people we don’t really know the facts about.

And by your own definition a mistake is something that happens and is not repeated. I will grant that there may be some mistakes in those pictures, we have to make lots of assumptions about intent before we can be sure it was intentional abuse. Achy breaky bad mistaky, I’ll go along with that.

In all honesty, other than the cowboy hats and the outdoor, music festival setting, is there anything else that we know was abusive? I thought the snide comments about the musicians and the implication that they were in worship of themselves was pretty darned insulting. I realize you didn’t say that, that’s not what I’m mean. I am a cantor, I didn’t see anything terrible about what they were doing. Do you think Mass should never be offered in a place like that? It falls into a grey area. What about conferences and such? I am seriously asking. How do you handle unusual situations like that with large groups of people?

As far as the universal aspect of the liturgy, well. You may not want to attend when the Hispanic community celebrates the Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe or attend the local African American parish. Correct liturgy can be expressed with acceptable differences and be in no way illicit or abusive and it is quite authentic. Do you really think WYD and other huge events don’t have some major human foul-ups? Things not planned for that might prove embarrasing crop up all the time. You could argue that the potential for mistakes at events like that makes it imprudent to even have Mass. But that’s where I think being too rigid on the rules causes some to miss the point. If you identify yourself in that group, that’s your choice, and you identified yourself BTW I didn’t.

 

[twiztedseraph]

Scotty PGH:

Schismatic? Yes. Heretical? I don’t think that’s accurate.

Do they or do they not reject doctrines from the Second Vatican Council?