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hecd2
Guest
Sure - at least with regard to freedom and intentionality:
Desmurget et al, Movement Intention after Parietal Cortex Stimulation in Humans, Science 324 811 – 813 (2009)
Alec
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grannymh
Guest
This time around, I had better luck locating an article. Though I will credit your past explanation regarding references. Thank you. Nonetheless, we may have to negotiate about references in the future.
By reading only the abstract, it looks to me like Desmurget et al, used electrical stimulation in seven patients undergoing awake brain surgery. Unfortunately, access to full text is restricted and I don’t meet qualifications.
On same website is the following summary. Unfortunately, access to full text is again restricted
"Neuroscience:
The Sources of Human Volition
**"Patrick Haggard **
Every day we make actions that seem to depend on our “free will” rather than on any obvious external stimulus. This capacity not only differentiates humans from other animals, but also gives us the clear sense of controlling our bodies and lives. It therefore forms a key element of our personal identity. However, such voluntary actions are a puzzle for modern neuroscience. Where do they come from? A study by Desmurget et al. (1) on page 811 of this issue reveals how the brain may produce our experience of initiating voluntary action. Institute of Cognitive Neuroscience, University College London, London WC1N 3AR, UK. "
Eventually, I will get to our community college to check out their library. I did like the above summary since it points to a difference between humans and other animals.
I find that free will is misunderstood on some threads.
Blessings,
granny
All human life is worthy of profound respect.
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edwest2
Guest
Thank you, Hugh. I appreciate it.Be glad to:
*** ***
http://www.zillmer.com/index2.htm
www.omniology.com
There are also four books, the last being by Aaron Judkins in the spring of 2009 entitled, "
The Global Phenomenon of Human Fossil Footprints in Rock by …
The Global Phenomenon of Human Fossil Footprints in Rock by Aaron Judkins $29.95 . This content requires Adobe Flash Player version 8.0.0 or greater. …
Moses does indeed sizzle while Darwin fizzles
Peace,
Ed
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edwest2
Guest
Thank you, Michaelo. I have read too many other articles that clearly show that man saw living creatures that we now call dinosaurs. The post by reggieM that shows modern bird prints in ancient rock indicates that the dating methods are inaccurate.
Peace,
Ed
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Michaelo
Guest
So now you’re a young earth creationist?
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edwest2
Guest
I strongly dislike labels of any kind. I am a Christian but I refuse to associate any adjective with that declaration. It usually leads to error.
YEC is a bad term because it used as a political staement. I do not associate myself with it. Fortunately, I have spent many years studying anomolous history. And many years studying media and media history. My conclusion is this: everything is knowingly and unknowingly used to engineer consent from the people. The fact is, some people do not have the time or the inclination to investigate claims on their own. They rely on and put their trust in others, unfortunately, especially over the last 40 years, an abuse of trust has led to the propagation of errors, distortions and bold, outright falsehoods in the Christian community and the world at large.
Peace,
Ed
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Michaelo
Guest
The implication of believing that dinosaurs and man inhabited the earth at the same time is that you accept YEC. I have a feeling that you don’t want to identify yourself as such because you are also aware of the other absurdities that this position entails.
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edwest2
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Much like the nonexistent Federal Guidelines to Political Correctness for all United States Citizens, which must exist because everyone seems to know all of the PC terminology, there is apparently a list of YEC claims somewhere, but I’m certainly not aware of it. But that does not matter.
Here is where I stand:
The dating methods are not yielding results consistent with findings made, and, in particular, as they relate to claims of certain animals living millions of years ago. Modern tools and other objects, clearly man made, have been found in rock and coal.
You seem to be ignoring the very good example posted by reggieM. Modern birds tracks in ancient rock.
There is a depiction on an ancient Greek vase of a dinosaur.
I could list others, but my point is: something is not right with the dates.
Recent investigations into non-distance related red shift phenomena are yielding data showing that red shifts are not distance related. I learned this after talking to a friend who is acquainted with scientists who work in the field. He agrees that there is a problem there as well.
Peace,
Ed
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Michaelo
Guest
Can you offer some specific examples? These might clear some things up:
talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC130.html
talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC131.html
From Nature:
nature.com/nature/journal/v417/n6892/full/nature00818.html
That’s hardly reliable evidence.
I suggest you express your specifics concerns about red shifts to hecd2, who appears to be familiar with these subjects.
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edwest2
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Thank you for your reply. I am certain that the inconsistencies are as described. I have seen a photo of the Greek vase and accept it at face value along with the other artifacts.
Peace,
Ed
Peace,
Ed
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Michaelo
Guest
So then logically all other creatures depicted on ancient pottery coexisted with the humans responsible for the art?
It just seems like these are all more examples of people grasping at straws and trying to conform the evidence to their preconceived notions of reality.
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edwest2
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As I pointed out, there are other examples. I am certain that there are fundamental problems with dating.
Peace,
Ed
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Michaelo
Guest
Well then please post them when possible.
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reggieM
Guest
Yes, that article supports what I posted because it comes from the scientists I quoted.
The part you quoted was refuted by the authors.
Some claimed that the footprints were “non-avian” but the authors argue otherwise.Here we describe well-preserved and abundant footprints with clearly avian characters from a Late Triassic redbed sequence of Argentina …
There are “clearly avian characters” found in “Late Triassic rock”. That is prior to the evolution of “avians”.
From the beginning of the article – which you failed to copy and paste:
The known history of birds starts in the Late Jurassic epoch (around 150 Myr ago) with the record of Archaeopteryx …
Obviously, there are “modern looking” bird footprints in rocks as old as Archaeopteryx.
If the best you can do is totally misunderstand and confuse the very story I posted, then this item stands up quite well indeed.
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Alethios
Guest
Interesting… Do you have a technical reference?
No one wants to fund objective research… they don’t know what it is.
How about a donation to ID - put those stimulus bucks to work!
How can the absence of genetic change reveal hidden code? This quote logically fits stasis, not evolution.
Look at it this way: Why can brown-eyed parents have a blue-eyed child?
Because the blue allele is recessive, both parents must carry it. Blue eyes won’t be expressed until then, perhaps after many generations.
Now consider a recessive human gene to grow wings that has been latent for 300 generations(6000 years).
It finally finds the trigger in the genome of 2 modern parents to express it.
What do the evols conclude? That…
- humans have evolved the ability to fly and are a new ‘species’
- this occurred by the slow single point mutation of bases over 6000 years.
- all the mutations never were visible or fatal to the 300 generations.
- all this happened twice, in both maternal and paternal lines(else the flying human won’t reproduce)
What’s relevant is macro-evolution , the production of new ‘species’ by mutation. The Lenski test only tests micro-evolution/breeding/racism
A proposed protocol to demonstrate the construction of a new protein-forming gene via neoDarwinism:
- genome map each bacterial generation until a new non-bacterial organism is produced
- transfer of genes between bacteria must be prevented!
- show that the new organism differs from the bacteria, using the 4 definitions of species now proposed
- show that 90% of micro-biologists agree that the new organism is not a bacterium
- using the genome history of each generation,
- identify the new gene(s) that evolved from the original bacterial strain.
- show that the new gene code(s) were not in the introns of the original bacterial strain.
- show that point mutations of the original bacterial genome serially changed into the new genes of the new species.
We did.
Very carefully
Montana
Which one?
Here
Radiometry is a bogus dating system, unless you believe that the last eruption of Mt. St. Helens was 2,800,000 years ago.
C14 is the only chronometer for dating life forms.
Dinosaurs were life forms.
Has Google gone out of business?
We are one body, brother - one body in Christ.
The thread rules of evidence here require evidence that’s credible, not necessarily published. We presented a preprint of the data for 9 dino ages , we expected gratitude, not the implied lack of trust and third degree questioning.
What is sorely needed is the answer to this one question -
**Where are the DATA, published or un-published, showing dino bone ages are outside the C14 range and can’t be tested? **
Lotsa questions here, brother, but no answers forthcoming.
AMDG
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hecd2
Guest
That is indeed so. He points out that the philosophical/religious idea that intention arises in some non-physical spiritual domain and uses the physical brain as a tool to realise the action has been increasingly challenged by the evidence:
“A central question in the study of human behavior concerns the origin of willed actions. Where in the brain are intentions formed? How do we become aware of these intentions? According to the dualist philosophy (1), our encephalon is just the recipient of conscious intentions formed elsewhere in a nonphysical realm. This implies that conscious intention comes first, as the leading cause of our actions. Although appealing from a spiritual point of view, this hypothesis was progressively challenged by a large set of studies (2–4). Results showing that the decision to move did not precede, but instead lagged, the onset of brain activity signaling motor preparedness were especially convincing (5–7). Thus, researchers suggested that conscious intention of a movement emerged as a consequence of increased neural activity in a premotor-parietal circuit, which elaborates motor plans before action.”
The problem then becomes identifying the specific neural circuit which gives rise to the experience of free-will and intention, which he addresses in this paper. To cut a long story short, stimulation of specific regions of the pre-motor regions causes movement without the experience of an intention to move (or indeed an awareness of movement), while stimulation of specific regions of the inferior parietal regions created an intention to move and with a higher intensity of stimulation, a belief that movement had occurred, even if it hadn’t. Their conclusion:
“Our study suggests that motor intention and awareness are emerging consequences of increased parietal activity before movement execution. The subjective (and potentially illusory) feeling that we are executing a movement does not arise from movement itself, but it is generated by prior conscious intention and its predicted consequences.”
See also: “The Volitional Brain; Towards a neuroscience of free will”, ed Libet et al, Imprint Academic, ISBN 1355 8250 (1999).
Also, the Journal of Consciousness Studies (which sponsored the above book) is a very prestigious journal covering physics, biology, neurobiology, philosophical and social aspects of the study of human consciousness. See, for example Haggard and Johnson, Experiences of Voluntary Action, J Consciousness Studies 10, 72 - 84 (2003)
Alec
evolutionpages.com
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edwest2
Guest
Hugh Miller provided this not that many posts ago:
youtube.com/watch?v=lXDBX99qePA&feature=related
As I see it, all that is happening here is a battle of worldviews:
Worldview A: Whatever we can see or sense is real. Period. End of story.
Worldview B: Whatever we can see or sense is real and just as real as apparitions of the Virgin Mary and the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
The Biology textbook is inadequate to provide knowledge and information that can therefore be applied to get answers to certain other questions. The human person must not only understand his physical makeup but his non-physical makeup. Biology can acquire certain pieces of information but without the crucial linkage to the other information, it is truly incomplete in a practical way.
Peace,
Ed
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Orogeny
Guest
You might want to visit this site.
paleo.cc/paluxy/delk.htm
By the way, even Answers in Genesis agrees with Kuban (the author of the link). Hugh will be along shortly to condemn Kuban and AIG. If nothing else, he is consistent!
Peace
Tim
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edwest2
Guest
The video Hugh provided is not the only piece of information out there. I am certain the dates for ancient times are wrong. I had already picked up enough information years ago to draw that conclusion.
Peace,
Ed
Peace,
Ed
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