Crackpot Challenge Part 2 - Evolution

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Continued:

Now watch what could be called GEOCENTRIC PHYSICS:

Now if Newton’s theory was/is the only theory that could account for the phenomenon of gravitation? We have put this simple question to many - even some at a university lecture that would like to believe they understand how Newton’s theory works - but rarely did we receive the right answer. The hard fact is, of course, apples falling to the ground might well be pushed down. In other words gravity could well be a pushing effect not a pulling effect.

‘When Kepler tried to explain by mechanics how a planet moves in its orbit, he thought there must be some force constantly pushing the planet from behind.’

And so we come to a pushing force for gravity instead of a pulling force. We introduce this particular section only as a means to further undermine the claim that Newton established true causes for heliocentricism. The ideas we shall now consider are almost certainly as big a load of moonshine as Newton’s and are not offered to readers as a true alternative or falsification but only to show that scientific theories can be invented at will.
By 1781, George Louis Le Sage (1724-1803) had completed an alternative thesis to the very same advanced level as Newton’s - a pushing force theory for moving celestial bodies. He proposed space is filled with countless infinitesimal particles termed ‘ultra mundane Corpuscles’ and these push planets in their orbits. These corpuscles, he posed, are in extremely rapid motion, analogous to molecules in a gas, and which tr¬averse in a criss-cross action in straight lines throughout the universe. The corpuscles move with tremendous speed in all directions, penetrating matter, but meeting some resistance in doing so. The consequences of this would mean the corpuscles are acting as a pushing force by colliding against all physical, material objects in the universe. The crucial factor in this theory is one of non-equilibrium, the positioning of cosmic bodies in the system relative to each other. If the pressure is the same on the surface of a sphere it goes nowhere. If however, something shields the pressure of the ‘ultra mundane Corpuscles’ on any part of that sphere it would move due to ‘non-equilibrium’.

HELIOCENTRIC PHYSICS ONLY PLEASE

So, what happened to Le Sage’s and other theories? Well there are two answers to this question, one at the ‘scientific’ level, and the other is ideological. One eliminates a scientific theory by falsifying it. In this case however, Lord Kelvin (1824-1907), who, like many other eminent scientists, could find nothing wrong with the dynamics nor the mathematics of Le Sage’s theory, postulated that the collisions between the hypothetical particles and solid matter would, over long periods of time, involve a heat transfer sufficient to melt plan¬etary objects. This was enough, and coming as it did from a fellow and president of the Royal Society, the theory was treated as falsified. Later again however, as is prone to happen in theoretical physics, Le Sage’s theory, they decided, is not untenable according to modern physics. The science, and again I stress, for what it is worth, now holds that such particle collisions can be ‘elastic’ on contact and thus avoid any degradations of flux energy to heat. Le Sage’s theory, they now hold, would not melt planetary bodies so why wasn’t it readmitted as a possible scientific theory for cosmic movement.

‘A rather wild theory was put forward by Le Sage…Professor de Sitter has tested the idea by examining whether there is any weakening in the Sun’s attraction on the Moon at a time when the Moon is in the Earth’s shadow. He does actually find some evidence of such a weakening, but it is too minute to be certain about. The fantastic nature of Le Sage’s theory is evidence of the extreme difficulty of the problem. It is curious to reflect that we are still as ignorant of the nature of the force that draws a stone to the Earth as men were in the dawn of history.’ Dr. A.C.D. Crommelin: Diamonds in the Sky, Collins, London, 1940, p.49.

And if we are still in ignorance of the cause of gravity we witness and can measure as it happens, then how can they tell us this same gravity operates a heliocentric physics’ solar system? Consult any textbook and we will find Newton’s universal gravitation theory, affirmed heliocentricism and was accepted and adopted from the moment Newton’s Principia was published. The establishment had no need for any PHYSICS that could be used to deny the Earthmovers and Sun Fixers their victory, and the Royal Society made sure that anyone who might propose otherwise would not get too far with it. Everything except their own ‘laws’ was abandoned on ideological grounds and little else. Nothing would be allowed to stand in the way of the Earthmovers’ revolution.

‘This method, of which the germ was contained in the scientific revolution initiated at the turn of the seventeenth century by Francis Bacon and which has since been adopted by every branch of science and by countless pseudo-sciences such as politics, economics, the social sciences, and even art, religion, ethics and psychology, is as follows. Take a phenomenon that can be observed, produce a mathematical measurement for it that fits, concoct a hypothesis which, however far fetched, could possibly account for the phenomenon, and finally call the hypothesis and the mathematical formula that supports it a law and regardless of whether or not there is any theoretical justification for it whatever, apply it throughout the universe. And that is all that the famous Law of Gravitation consists of.’ —N.M. Gwynne

But now we have a new physics emerging, one that is far more Geocentric than heliocentric - the electromagnetic universe. My preference is for such a universe.
 
Originally Posted by Alethios
We and others have tested dinosaur bones from across the US and found a range of ages from 7,000 to 55,000 years ago, contradicting the evolution legend of 65 million years since the extinction of the last dino.
Who is this “we”? Let’s see your data.

As requested… 9 Dinosaurs < 34 kiloyears RC BP

Table 1 Results of testing for C-14 in dinosaur femur bones
(Triceratops, Tri. Hadrosaur, Hd.) (GX-Geochron; UG-University of Georgia)

Nr…Sample ID,…Radiocarbon Date …PMC’s corrected
…Date analyzed,…in Years BP…x 10^6 years,
…Preparation stats…C13 pdb

1…Tri. GX-32372-AMS…30,890 +/-200…2.16,-20.1 o/oo
…08/25/06 (a)
…30 mg collagen, Modified Longin Method (MLM)*

2…Tri. GX-32647-Conv…33,830 +2910/-1960…1.38,-16.6 o/oo
…09/12/06 (b)
…500 mg total organics
…pretreated acid, alkali, acid

3…Hd. GX-31950-AMS… 1,950 +/-50…xxxx,-23.5 o/oo
…01/18/06 (c)
…0.7 mg collagen from 2.3 gm

4…Hd. GX-32739-Conv…22,380 +/-800…6.33,-16.0 o/oo
…01/16/07 (d)
…500 mg total organics
…pretreated acid, alkali, acid

5…Hd. GX-32678-AMS…22,990 +/-130…xxx,-18.4 o/oo
…04/04/07 (d)
…300 mg total organics
…pretreated acid, alkali, acid

6…Hd UGAMS-01935…25,670 +/-220…4.09,-6.4 o/oo
…04/10/07 (e)
…1 mg bioapatite as graphite;
…no pretreatment

7…Hd UGAMS-01936…25,170 +/-230…4.36,-15.7 o/oo
…04/10/07 (e)
…0.47 mg charred bone as graphite;
…pretreated

8…Hd UGAMS-01937…23,170 +/-170…5.59,-22.7 o/oo
…04/10/07 (e)
…3.2 mg collagen (MLM)*
…0.59 mg as graphite

9…Hd UGAMS-01938…2,560 +/-70…72.68,-21.5 o/oo
…04/10/07 (e)
…1.9 mg humic acid, (0.35 mg as graphite)
…prec. from alk. fraction
  • Modified Longin Method for extracting/purifying collagen: (Arslanov, Svezhentsev, 1993)
    (a) Sample size sent to RC lab was 8.4 grams (P-T-1) Internal bone material
    (b) Sample size sent to RC lab was 146.0 grams (P-T-2) Outer bone material
    (c) Sample size sent to RC lab was 2.3 grams (P-H1-2) Internal bone material.
    (d) Sample size sent to RC lab was 160.0 grams (P-H1-2) Outer bone material.
    (e) Sample size sent to RC lab was 56.0 grams (P-H-3a) Internal bone material.
Now, where are the DATA, not claims, showing dino bone ages are outside the C14 range and can’t be tested?
 
As requested… 9 Dinosaurs < 34 kiloyears RC BP

Table 1 Results of testing for C-14 in dinosaur femur bones
(Triceratops, Tri. Hadrosaur, Hd.) (GX-Geochron; UG-University of Georgia)

Nr…Sample ID,…Radiocarbon Date …PMC’s corrected
…Date analyzed,…in Years BP…x 10^6 years,
…Preparation stats…C13 pdb

1…Tri. GX-32372-AMS…30,890 +/-200…2.16,-20.1 o/oo
…08/25/06 (a)
…30 mg collagen, Modified Longin Method (MLM)*

2…Tri. GX-32647-Conv…33,830 +2910/-1960…1.38,-16.6 o/oo
…09/12/06 (b)
…500 mg total organics
…pretreated acid, alkali, acid

3…Hd. GX-31950-AMS… 1,950 +/-50…xxxx,-23.5 o/oo
…01/18/06 (c)
…0.7 mg collagen from 2.3 gm

4…Hd. GX-32739-Conv…22,380 +/-800…6.33,-16.0 o/oo
…01/16/07 (d)
…500 mg total organics
…pretreated acid, alkali, acid

5…Hd. GX-32678-AMS…22,990 +/-130…xxx,-18.4 o/oo
…04/04/07 (d)
…300 mg total organics
…pretreated acid, alkali, acid

6…Hd UGAMS-01935…25,670 +/-220…4.09,-6.4 o/oo
…04/10/07 (e)
…1 mg bioapatite as graphite;
…no pretreatment

7…Hd UGAMS-01936…25,170 +/-230…4.36,-15.7 o/oo
…04/10/07 (e)
…0.47 mg charred bone as graphite;
…pretreated

8…Hd UGAMS-01937…23,170 +/-170…5.59,-22.7 o/oo
…04/10/07 (e)
…3.2 mg collagen (MLM)*
…0.59 mg as graphite

9…Hd UGAMS-01938…2,560 +/-70…72.68,-21.5 o/oo
…04/10/07 (e)
…1.9 mg humic acid, (0.35 mg as graphite)
…prec. from alk. fraction
  • Modified Longin Method for extracting/purifying collagen: (Arslanov, Svezhentsev, 1993)
    (a) Sample size sent to RC lab was 8.4 grams (P-T-1) Internal bone material
    (b) Sample size sent to RC lab was 146.0 grams (P-T-2) Outer bone material
    (c) Sample size sent to RC lab was 2.3 grams (P-H1-2) Internal bone material.
    (d) Sample size sent to RC lab was 160.0 grams (P-H1-2) Outer bone material.
    (e) Sample size sent to RC lab was 56.0 grams (P-H-3a) Internal bone material.
Now, where are the DATA, not claims, showing dino bone ages are outside the C14 range and can’t be tested?
Well posted Alethios; I look forward to the 65.000,000 year adherents’ replies. But I thought for C14 to be truly, truly accurate 32,000 years had to pass. Given the earth is 6,000 years old according to revelation and Christian Martyrology then C14 dating methods must take account of this. Can you correct me if I’m wrong please.

CHRISTIAN MARTYROLOGY.

Looking ahead a bit, I find it a nice touch to proclaim the Martyrology of Christmas each year. If you’re familiar with the Midnight Mass from the Vatican and/or from Holy Name Cathedral in Chicago, you know that the Mass begins with a deacon or priest singing the Martyrology:

***The 25th day of December

In the year 5199 from the creation of the world, when in the beginning God created Heaven and Earth;

in the year 2957 from the flood;

in the year 2015 from the birth of Abraham;

in the year 1510 from Moses and the Exodus of the people of Israel from Egypt;

in the year 1032 from David’s being anointed king;

in the sixty fifth week of years according to the prophecy of Daniel;

in the 194th Olympiad;

in the year 752 from the building of the city of Rome;

in the 42nd year of the reign of Octavian Augustus;

the whole world being in peace;

in the sixth age of the world;

Jesus Christ, the eternal God, and Son of the eternal Father, desiring to sanctify this world by His most merciful coming,being conceived of the Holy Ghost, and nine months since His conception having passed, in Bethlehem of Juda,

is born of the Virgin Mary, being made man.

The Nativity of Our Lord Jesus Christ According to the Flesh***.
 
…I, a molecular biologist in training, can name an endless amount of things evolution contributed to humans.
For one, we can track the lineage of bacterial species and thus find out how to better defeat diseases today. We can group bacterial families and find out where their lineage is most weak. We can find out how bacteria gain certain resistances to certain antibiotics. We can find out how long ago certain animal groups split up and discover how to bring back extinct species through breeding. We can look at the evolution of plants and help farmers create better breeds through DNA manipulation.
Evidence has been presented earlier in this thread that evolution is logically inconsistent; that is, it contains internal contradictions. Evolution predicts a growth of ‘species’ from one to millions, producing a mix of life forms that are either stable, newly forming or going extinct.
But current testing shows no newly forming types - just many going extinct.An inconsistent system containing contradictions can be used to prove anything is true or false, so the evol. speculations being taught in schools are without value as evidence.

A few questions for your evol. instructors…

  1. *]How can bacteria have different ‘species’, when they reproduce asexually? [the species problem]
    *]If selection is a random and unpredictable process, how can it make definite predictions about future development of life forms? For instance, what macro changes are predicted for homo sapiens, if global warming continues?
    *]What experiments have verified the proposed bacterial lineage chain back to the first bacterium? The descendancy links need to be confirmed by experiment This is the scientific method - the need for repeatability]
    *]How can millions of years of bacterial modification be verified without eyewitnesses[lack of falsifiability]
    *]Why didn’t evolution theory predict the swine flu characteristics so that a vaccine could be produced in advance?
    *]What is found to be the weakest bacterial lineage in the familial grouping? .
    *]Testing indicates how bacteria gain certain resistances to certain antibiotics. How does evolution predict the resistances, without experimenting? Testing is NOT evolution. Scientific law is prediction without testing.
    *]The splitting of animal groups has never been observed in nature. Where and when has the splitting of animal groups been replicated in the lab?
    *]We are told that evolution is not visible because it is much slower than human lifetimes. But bacteria can speed up the study of mutation to new species tremendously. Some bacteria can reproduce/split in less than 10 minutes. This will produce 30 generations in 5 hours, and about one billion (1,000,000,000) bacteria. Why don’t we see new ‘species’ evolving from such rapid development?
    *]If evolution has no goal or direction, then why can’t we say chimps evolved from humans, because the chimp genome is bigger than the human genome, and the chimp has 2 more chromosomes?
    *]In a software program, code can lie dormant for a long time, until the section is activated by a particular sequence of instructions. Users may be totally unaware of its presence in the software code.
    *]By analogy proof of evolution comes down to showing that new functions of the genome are not activations of formerly latent code in the genome, but the mutation of existing code. Has this been shown? It hasn’t even been discussed!

    We can find out how to bring back extinct species through breeding. We can? … but we have not (except in Jurassic Park?). This is the kind of teaser used in proposals for funding. Is it also used to encourage impressionable students to pursue micro-biology?

    The concern of conservation groups is inconsistent with the claims of evolution, for evol. says that new forms are constantly evolving. So extinctions will be replaced by exciting new forms - according to Darwinists. Endangered ‘species’ are just evidence of the theme of evolution playing out in modern times. So why bother trying to battle natural selection? Those going extinct are the non-survival of the unfittest!

    Blame is placed on humans for changing the environment to drive certain forms to extinction. Since humans are the result of evolution - the ape to human link - this is just another example of the non-survival of the unfittest. Darwinistas can’t say that man is an exception to the evolution process - this is the religious claim!
    Without the Theory of Evolution and thus the urge to look at the past and find which bacterial species are related, I could never say “The Escherichia genus is more vulnerable to Vancomycin” as I would just lump bacteria in groups such as "rod shaped, sphiracal, spiral, big, small, etc
    Bio labs normally determine drug effectiveness against pathogens by direct testing - very costly. Apparently they are not aware that applying the theory of evolution method would save a lot of money.

    Describe, for example, what antibiotic would evolution predict to be most effective against Acinetobacter baumannii?

    What related bacterial ‘species’ has this pathogen ‘evolved’ from, and how do they determine the identity of the most effective antibiotic?

    Meanwhile, let us pray for all the misguided ones…

    psalm 19
    *The decrees of the Lord are truth,
    and all of them just…

    So in them Your servant finds instruction,
    great reward is in their keeping.
    but who can detect all his errors?
    from hidden faults acquit me. *

    AMDG
 
Table 1 Results of testing for C-14 in dinosaur femur bones…
A link to the source please. I do hope that your figures do not come from Hugh Miller, since his work in this area is not reliable:Robert Kalin senior research specialist at the University of Arizona’s radiocarbon dating laboratory, performed a standard independent analysis of the specimens submitted by Hugh Miller and concluded that the samples identified as “bones” did not contain any collagen. They were, in fact, not bone.

Kahn’s results and the results obtained (but not reported) by CRSEF’s own researchers confirm a simple paleontological fact: fossil dinosaur bones preserve the form but not the substance of dinosaur bone. The organic parts of the bone have been broken down and leached away by ground water percolating through the rock for thousands of millennia. At the same time, minerals from the water gradually replaced the organic molecules until all that remained was a casting of the original bone. So even if radiocarbon dating could be applied to the fossils and even if the specimens were not contaminated the resulting date would not tell you when the dinosaur died. It might tell you when the bone became fossilized, but since the process of fossilization involves the almost total replacement of organic matter by inorganic minerals the carbon-14 dating technique would be totally inappropriate.

But if fossil dinosaur bones can’t be radiocarbon dated, how could reputable radiocarbon laboratories produce the dates listed in Table 1? First, it must be emphasized that the numbers which come out of the radiocarbon dating machine are no better than the samples which go in. Computer programmers have a delightfully simple phrase which captures the essence of this point: garbage in, garbage out. For the purposes of radiocarbon dating CRSEF submitted garbage to the University of Arizona. The scientists from the Carnegie Museum who provided the samples and the scientists from the University of Arizona who analyzed and dated the specimens all now agree that the radiocarbon dates on the Carnegie’s dinosaur fossils are garbage. The so-called “dates” are meaningless numbers which give the age of a mixture of organic detritus and preservatives which contaminated the fossils. They have nothing whatsoever to do with the age of any dinosaurs.

Source: Lepper - Radiocarbon Dates for Dinosaur Bones?
Now, where are the DATA, not claims, showing dino bone ages are outside the C14 range and can’t be tested?
Find a set of kitchen scales that weight up to 25 lbs. Stand on those scales and look to see what you weigh. The scales will show “25 lbs”. Is that your real weight or just the maximum value that those scales can register?

If you think that it is your real weight, then I have this sure-fire weight loss plan that involves neither exercise not dieting that I can sell you. 🙂

rossum
 

  1. *]In a software program, code can lie dormant for a long time, until the section is activated by a particular sequence of instructions. Users may be totally unaware of its presence in the software code.
    *]By analogy proof of evolution comes down to showing that new functions of the genome are not activations of formerly latent code in the genome, but the mutation of existing code. Has this been shown? It hasn’t even been discussed!

  1. I’ve had the same thoughts as well. My prediction is that it will NEVER be researched since it implies a design of the DNA - which of course is what evolution is out to disprove. This is a very dangerous path for atheism to allow. So it won’t happen, unfortunately.
 
We went beyond asking our family doctors about evolution; we consulted the microbiology specialists at the Hughes Medical Institute:
Holiday Lecture Series In all the lectures, micro-evolution evidence is extrapolated to include macro-evolution , as though the difference is one of degree, not of kind or category. It doesn’t seem that the two speakers care to distinguish the two types of evolution, even though evolution of new life forms is the critical and contested issue.

In the first lecture -*The Microbes Strike Back *(skip first 7 mins.)- there is mention of evol. only once. The last student’s question was - do scientists study history of adaptation pathways in order to fight bacteria? The answer was that it is best to just try to see what works!

There was no indication micro-biologists can predict new diseases or cures using deep genetic history.

The ability to predict past changes in life forms is really a postdiction, not a prediction. This has the same value as a forecaster who can predict yesterday’s weather …

The case of blind cave animals with vestigial eyes is used to discount Intelligent Design - what perfect designer would create such useless anatomy?
We agree, because ID is only half the story; it ignores the identity of the Intelligent Designer and so also the Christian belief in the corruption of all that was good when created (read designed), by the Fall of mankind.

The term ‘toolkit’ gene is introduced… An interesting choice - it implies that the gene is being used by a tool user and that it had a tool maker. We wonder Who that tool maker and user might be, and if tool genes can really be the product of blind random selection?

Carroll uses the change of color from black to white in rock pocket mice as an example of evolution. Of course it is - micro-evolution! He should be showing us the mice changing to elephants to claim (macro) evolution.
The color change involves shades of gray, but he claims that the mice will mimic whatever rock colors are in their environment… pink mice will evolve on pink rocks, like chameleons! This incredible statement can be made because no one challenges the claim for proof… and none is offered.

Overall the wonder of nature is equated to the work of evolution. The enthusiasm is misplaces; what we call the miracle of life traces back to the creation event, when the attempt was made to capture the diversity of the infinite Trinity in the unity of single finite creatures… An impossible task.

Artificial breeding never produces new life forms. Yet the speakers never point this out - that breeding reaches physical and functional limits that can’t be exceeded and the forms returns to the normal or ‘wild’ state when artificial selection pressures are removed.

The breeding industry is considered separate from natural selection. Why? Evol. claims that humans are the product of evolution from apes; we currently happen to have the greatest supply of ‘intelligence’. Why we - with our superior intelligence - can’t repeat the macro-evolution that is accomplished by the clueless mutations of evolution is left unanswered.

Kingsley indicated how confused non-Catholics can be; he believes that the pope had said that independent data gave overwhelming support to evolution. He did not say which pope, and we have no knowledge of this source. It was certainly not a pope speaking as Magisterium, so he would be expressing his personal opinion, not necessarily the belief of faith.

He also relied on radioactive clocks to stipulate the great age of the Earth. Radiometry has been discredited as valid chronometry; dating of volcanic rocks known to be less than a century old has given radiometric ages in the millions of years.

Carroll stated that he would demonstrate the evolution of wings. Instead we were shown how a modified single gene produces spots on a fruit fly wing… not how the wing itself was formed. Spots are examples of micro-evolution.

In the discussion presentation (#5) the panel excludes any traditional Catholic scientist or theologian. This exclusion will guarantee that the panel will basically agree on the compatibility of evol. and faith. The theistic evolutionist and Scriptural revisionist who is on the panel will hardly uphold the Magisterium and Biblical inerrancy.

[an aside: can anyone explain the priest’s facial distortion at 6:30 into the tape? A Website hack, or a crude mockery of the priest’s position by the editors?]

The mainstream speakers were not impressive in their logical reasoning. Legal victories in our judicial system for teaching evolution in schools prove nothing. Court decisions are unique to the judicial process and use different rules of evidence than used in this thread. The OJ Simpson verdict establishes his lack of legal culpability, not a logical truth.

Somehow genetic testing becomes confused with proof of evolution by the lecturers… DNA accepted as valid evidence in trials has nothing relevant in showing that macro-evolution is also valid.

Then opposition to evolution is twisted to include opposition to DNA matching of forensic samples with suspects… ?? - the strawman fallacy.

Kingsley was opposed to any challenge to evol. teaching in schools - not just religious viewpoints, but any presentation of opposing evidence. This is the sign of an underlying ideology, not science.

Carroll complained about a bad press given to evolution… Where is he looking? In the mainstream media we never see an argument or article contrary to evolution.

We note with irony the need to bribe students to ask questions… If the questions are confrontational, will the bribe be withheld?

In all, the HHMI lectures raise only more questions and contradictions in evolution and present only micro-evolution evidence.

AMDG
 
I’ve had the same thoughts as well. My prediction is that it will NEVER be researched since it implies a design of the DNA - which of course is what evolution is out to disprove. This is a very dangerous path for atheism to allow. So it won’t happen, unfortunately.
This is wrong on so many levels.
  1. “Atheism” doesn’t decide which tests are being run. Which tests are being run depend on a scientist coming up with the idea to test it, designing a test, and getting funding to test it. Atheism has no power over it. It can’t block any tests.
  2. “Evolution” can’t prove or disprove anything either, it is a theory. It doesn’t have any motivations to prove or disprove anything. Also, the theory isn’t about trying to disprove design. It assumes methodological naturalism, just like every other scientific theory. It doesn’t take the supernatural into account, because you can’t test the supernatural.
  3. This has already been tested. Look at Richard Lenski’s tests on E.coli which you can find here and here. It’s a lot of information I know, but if you read through, I’m sure you will see that they tested the proposition that this is latent code in the E. coli.
 
This is wrong on so many levels.
  1. “Atheism” doesn’t decide which tests are being run. Which tests are being run depend on a scientist coming up with the idea to test it, designing a test, and getting funding to test it. Atheism has no power over it. It can’t block any tests.
You talk as though people who are atheists don’t let that thinking into their science.
  1. “Evolution” can’t prove or disprove anything either, it is a theory. It doesn’t have any motivations to prove or disprove anything. Also, the theory isn’t about trying to disprove design. It assumes methodological naturalism, just like every other scientific theory. It doesn’t take the supernatural into account, because you can’t test the supernatural.
Evolution assumes the answer it wants - that species come about via random mutations. This is opposite the idea that DNA has all the different species “built-in” and need only to be activated. They can’t both be true since they are direct opposites. And nowhere did I invoke the supernatural. I merely mentioned “design”.
 
  1. This has already been tested. Look at Richard Lenski’s tests on E.coli which you can find here and here. It’s a lot of information I know, but if you read through, I’m sure you will see that they tested the proposition that this is latent code in the E. coli.
Your second link is broken.

Isn’t this the same experiment that evolutionists the world over tout as proof that bacteria evolve (by random mutations). If the code for the new feature was already there (latent), then this is a strike against evolution by random mutations.
 
I’ve had the same thoughts as well. My prediction is that it will NEVER be researched since it implies a design of the DNA - which of course is what evolution is out to disprove. This is a very dangerous path for atheism to allow. So it won’t happen, unfortunately.
They will only talk about the DNA molecule. The language of DNA comes from a mind. Linguistics are used to study it.
 
Your second link is broken.

Isn’t this the same experiment that evolutionists the world over tout as proof that bacteria evolve (by random mutations). If the code for the new feature was already there (latent), then this is a strike against evolution by random mutations.
Which is exactly what has been found. Bacteria do indeed have latent abilities that can lie dormant for thousands of years and used only when needed.
 
I’ve had the same thoughts as well. My prediction is that it will NEVER be researched since it implies a design of the DNA - which of course is what evolution is out to disprove. This is a very dangerous path for atheism to allow. So it won’t happen, unfortunately.
So you are predicting that ID will never do any of its own research? ID has its own lab, the Biologic Institute and it has its own journal, PCID. Why isn’t ID doing its own research into this?

rossum
 
Your second link is broken.

Isn’t this the same experiment that evolutionists the world over tout as proof that bacteria evolve (by random mutations). If the code for the new feature was already there (latent), then this is a strike against evolution by random mutations.
Sorry about the second link. I’ll try it again here. The second link was merely the abstract of the paper cited in the first link.

This function did not appear until after 33,000 generations had passed. Think about that, 33,000 generations were raised in the same environment and this trait didn’t show itself. Then they unfroze ancestor strains of these bacteria and raised them in the same environment to see if this trait would appear in them as well. It didn’t.

Do you have any evidence to suggest that the code was already there? If the code was already there, what triggered it? Why did it not trigger it in all of the bacteria when it reached that generation? Why didn’t the second group of descendant strains show the same function that the first descendant strain did when it reached the same generation? Can you think of a better test protocol to test if the code is already there?

The answers to these questions don’t really matter. The point you made was that no one would attempt to test this hypothesis because it would be too dangerous to atheism. The test has already been attempted. You can deny results all you like, but it is not true to suggest that no one would ever attempt a test that has been continuously tested over the last 25 years.
 
So you are predicting that ID will never do any of its own research? ID has its own lab, the Biologic Institute and it has its own journal, PCID. Why isn’t ID doing its own research into this?

rossum
Perhaps somebody is working on it. I don’t know. So many things to discover, and so few open minded people to do it…😦
 
You talk as though people who are atheists don’t let that thinking into their science.
Of course they do, but if the evidence isn’t there, then people with different points of view will challenge it. The side with the better explanation of the data wins. Maybe not immediately, but eventually the side with the better explanation wins.
Evolution assumes the answer it wants - that species come about via random mutations.
This is opposite the idea that DNA has all the different species “built-in” and need only to be activated. They can’t both be true since they are direct opposites. And nowhere did I invoke the supernatural. I merely mentioned “design”.
You don’t believe that God is the designer? Your signature suggests that you think that a supernatural being was the designer.

If new traits are built in to DNA someone should really go about trying to test that. The only test I know of that would really show if these properties were built-in shows that these properties appear to evolve as predicted.

But you have my blessing, as an atheist, to study it as much as you want. If you really can find design, that is something I would really be interested in.
 
You don’t believe that God is the designer? Your signature suggests that you think that a supernatural being was the designer.
Of course I think that God is the designer - that doesn’t make the whole idea wrong. But there are, of course, designers other than God. So if you don’t believe in God, and design is found, then you have the option of believing in other designers.
If new traits are built in to DNA someone should really go about trying to test that.
Perhaps the mainstream establishment never thought of it because of intellectual / anti-religion bias. Perhaps you are in a position to bring it up as a possibility for investigation. I’ve forgotten what your profession is.
But you have my blessing, as an atheist, to study it as much as you want. If you really can find design, that is something I would really be interested in.
As a non-atheist, it strikes me funny that an atheist would give out blessings. Catholics might say something like “God bless you.” What does an atheist blessing consist of? “Sideline bless you.”?
 
… Evolutionary biology has been very successful, and is practiced daily by 100,000 biologists adding to human knowledge. There is no more reason for them to stop working because of what Luke believes, than for all truckers to stop working because of what I believe.
The thread topic is the classification of evolution as a crackpot theory based on Magisterial, logical and objective scientific evidence. The topic is NOT the employment statistics or work ethic of Darwin’s worshippers.
… Do you realize there are numerous Catholic priests who are evolutionary biologists? Do you know about SOSc – the Society of Ordained Scientists? There are women and men who are ordained and who also practice as scientists. …
We do realiize that there were numerous Arian clerics 17 centuries ago and many clergy today who hold to the crackpot theory of Copernicus.
We realize that one of the apostles betrayed Jesus, who termed the apostle the son of perdition.
We realize that the Apostle of the Gentiles was once a zealous persecutor of Christians.

That so many priests are misguided evols. today is sad, but no surprise to Church historians.
Just as Monica prayed for Augustine we pray for their conversion to the truth… all of them to all of it.

We don’t know of SOSc, but do know about the KCSC, the Kolbe Center for the Study of Creation, a Roman Catholic lay apostolate dedicated to glorifying the Most Holy Trinity by proclaiming the truth about the origins of man and the universe. The Kolbe Center seeks to educate the public, particularly within the Catholic Church, in the truth of creation as revealed in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition and as confirmed by the findings of modern science. With the help of experts in the fields of theology(including a bishop and priests), philosophy, and natural science, the Kolbe Center also seeks to show the superiority of special creation over all forms of molecules-to-man evolution as an explanation of the origins of man and the universe…
Your claims about evolution may convince the invincibly ignorant, but they certainly do nothing to convince educated Christians, including the 300 theologians, philosophers, historians and scientists with whom I discussed evolution at the conference in Rome in March. …
We have given presentations at a Rome conference that supported the truth of creation as revealed in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition and as confirmed by the findings of modern science. This was also a very important conference, with very important people talking about very important issues to a very important audience.
But there was a significant difference in the conference admission policies. All were invited to participate in the Kolbe Conference and make their case for evolution or creation. The March STOQ conference was open to views from … Darwin’s dupes only.
Vatican evolution congress to exclude creationism, intelligent design
Is this the modernist version of free speech - a return to Goebbels’ propaganda machine?

By the way: did we mention how very important the KC conference was?

AMDG
 
Of course I think that God is the designer - that doesn’t make the whole idea wrong. But there are, of course, designers other than God. So if you don’t believe in God, and design is found, then you have the option of believing in other designers.
I never said it makes it wrong. You think the designer is God. You no doubt think that if design were found that would be proof of God. Almost everyone who believes in Intelligent Design thinks it is God who is the designer. Why pretend anything different?

Why not just say that you are looking for God’s signature? I know it is impossible for a Christian to accept, but the reason I don’t believe in creationism or Intelligent Design isn’t because I don’t want the designer to be God, but because there is no evidence of this design. Find the evidence, and then we will talk.
Perhaps the mainstream establishment never thought of it because of intellectual / anti-religion bias.
Look, I just showed you a study that strongly suggest that this notion of pre-existing traits doesn’t fly and you are still claiming bias. If you think the experiment is flawed, then you should be the one lobbying for a better test protocol.

Did you even read the abstract?
 
I never said it makes it wrong. You think the designer is God. You no doubt think that if design were found that would be proof of God. Almost everyone who believes in Intelligent Design thinks it is God who is the designer. Why pretend anything different?
I’m not pretending anything different. I clearly said that I believe the designer is God. So far as it being proof of God, well, there are far better proofs of God than this would be, so frankly, I don’t need this as any sort of proof of God.
Why not just say that you are looking for God’s signature? I know it is impossible for a Christian to accept, but the reason I don’t believe in creationism or Intelligent Design isn’t because I don’t want the designer to be God, but because there is no evidence of this design. Find the evidence, and then we will talk.
I see God’s signature everywhere, so I don’t need to look very hard 🙂

Do you see evidence of design by anybody, anywhere?
 
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