Crackpot Challenge Part 2 - Evolution

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Originally Posted by Alethios
In the 4 decades after 1859, the Holy Office of Rome rejected several books on evolution by wayward clerics.
What were those books?

A good question…


  1. *]*De’ nuovi studi della Filosofia, Discorsi *
    *]L’évolution restreinte aux espèces organiques, par le père Léroy dominicain
    *]Evolution and Dogma
    *]The Genesis of Species
    *]Lessons From Nature

    A better answer

    AMDG
 
As requested… 9 Dinosaurs < 34 kiloyears RC BP
Who collected the samples? How were the samples handled? Where were the samples collected? Did the laboratory have any comment on the samples? Link to the published data? What other radiometric techniques were used to confirm the dates? Why C14? Are you part of the “we” that I asked about?

Posting a bunch of data does nothing without the background info. A link to the published paper is sorely needed.

Peace

Tim
 
A few questions for your evol. instructors…
Those were good questions.
*]If selection is a random and unpredictable process, how can it make definite predictions about future development of life forms? For instance, what macro changes are predicted for homo sapiens, if global warming continues?
I asked this elsewhere. First, the claim by some evolutionists is that “evolution is not random” – except the parts of it that are random. So, predictions about evolution are very successful, except for in those cases where we can’t predict because of random factors. As for the evolution of homo sapiens, “we really don’t know and can’t predict” – again, because of random factors like mutations and environmental conditions. No mathematical models or probability studies are provided to show the future evolution of mankind either. (An evolutionist recently admitted that humans “could grow wings” in the future as other mammals like bats have done, but that’s not “likely”). But it is also claimed that “evolution is very successful in predicting the past” – that is its primary interest and not really in predicting the future. Apparently, we don’t really need to know the future, but we do need to predict what happened in the past. Predicting the past requires looking at the present and then making sure everything that is found in nature fits into an agreed-upon plan about what happened. That is quite good, for them, because it provides “evidence” about what happened. We know that human beings exist, and we find various fossils. Thus, we predict that some fossils are ancestors of human beings. This tends to work every time – except when it doesn’t work (because our knowledge is still “growing”). A good example is the Tree of Life. This offered excellent (for them) predictions of the path of evolution and was claimed as evidence, fact and proof.
Now, that same Tree of Life has been destroyed by DNA evidence. So, those “predictions of the past” were falsified, even though they had already been taught as fact previously.
The wonderful thing about “predicting the past” is that if you’re totally wrong, nothing changes since the past has already occurred. And that is what happened here – new Trees of Life (now a tangled jungle of life) are being sketched out as predictions. The failed predictions had no meaning or influence on anyone except for the academics who proposed them. They’ll have to revise some textbooks but nothing else of significance changes with the result of the false Tree drawings that were given as fact.

Now, however, predicting the future could have serious consequences since people can make decisions on the predictions and change their lives. Then, if the predictions prove wrong, some serious consequences can result. That’s generally why evolutionists don’t like predicting future events. But we are told that “evolution is as certain as mechanical engineering” – except that evolution doesn’t like to predict the future because randomness makes some of the results not very certain.

The same is almost true of mechanical engineering. When engineers build a bridge, they don’t like to predict that it will work in the future. They prefer to predict how bridges worked in the past – that is a lot safer. When they’re wrong about predicting the past, nobody gets hurt.

Unfortunately, their employers force engineers to predict whether their bridges will hold up under the weight of automobile traffic. So, in this case, engineering is a little more certain than evolution.

I would like to hear some predictions on homo sapien evolution. Scientists already claim to know precisely how the weather will change with global warming. All evolutionists need to do is create the model showing mutations and adaptations that humans will make.
 
I would like to hear some predictions on homo sapien evolution.
1 Western humans will evolve ways to deal with the uncharacteristically rich western diet. See Apolipoprotein A-I Milano for one such example.

2 Humans in malarial areas will evolve better ways to deal with the malaria parasite, see HbC as an example.

3 Humans in areas with AIDS and little access to modern drugs will evolve more resistance to AIDS.
Scientists already claim to know precisely how the weather will change with global warming. All evolutionists need to do is create the model showing mutations and adaptations that humans will make.
“Precisely” is not the correct word. All models of climate change come with error bars, though those error bars may not always be reported in the popular media.

Provided the warming trend is continued long enough then we will see:

1 A tendancy towards better ways to deal with a higher ambient temperature - moves towards being thinner and taller with less subcutaneous fat.

2 If there is increased sunlight then a tendancy towads darker skin.

3 If there is a shortage of water then a tendancy towards a reduced need for water and a more efficient recovery of water from urine.

In short, evolution follows the environment. If we can forecast the long term environment then we can also make reasonable forecasts as to what evolution might do in the long term.

rossum
 
1 Western humans will evolve ways to deal with the uncharacteristically rich western diet. See Apolipoprotein A-I Milano for one such example.

2 Humans in malarial areas will evolve better ways to deal with the malaria parasite, see HbC as an example.

3 Humans in areas with AIDS and little access to modern drugs will evolve more resistance to AIDS.

“Precisely” is not the correct word. All models of climate change come with error bars, though those error bars may not always be reported in the popular media.

Provided the warming trend is continued long enough then we will see:

1 A tendancy towards better ways to deal with a higher ambient temperature - moves towards being thinner and taller with less subcutaneous fat.

2 If there is increased sunlight then a tendancy towads darker skin.

3 If there is a shortage of water then a tendancy towards a reduced need for water and a more efficient recovery of water from urine.

In short, evolution follows the environment. If we can forecast the long term environment then we can also make reasonable forecasts as to what evolution might do in the long term.

rossum
Substitute the word adapt for the word evolve.
 
1 Western humans will evolve ways to deal with the uncharacteristically rich western diet. See Apolipoprotein A-I Milano for one such example.
The article states that the mutation is rare. It also does not provide any predictions at all on how humans will evolve. On the contrary, “therapies” using what was found in the mechanism argue against evolution and any predictions that could come out of it.
Next generation therapies, however, could couple this process with the antioxidant mechanism found in the mutation, creating a one-two punch that both cleans out cholesterol and prevents oxidation that leads to future rounds of deposition.
3 Humans in areas with AIDS and little access to modern drugs will evolve more resistance to AIDS.
Or maybe they won’t – as with malaria, which has been causing significant damage to human beings for 10,000 years.
“Precisely” is not the correct word. All models of climate change come with error bars, though those error bars may not always be reported in the popular media.
I don’t usually see error bars reported on evolutionary predictions either – as in the cases you posted here today. Also, predictions are a function of time, so some notion about how long these things will take would be helpful.
 
ReggieM makes a good case for the non-predictive aspects of evolution. The recent finding about birds and dinosaurs has changed a direct relationship theory. Apparently, according to a group of scientists, the new findings show birds evolved in parallel with dinosaurs.

Recent findings in the genetics front indicate that instead of a tree, we now have a bush.

Plants and animals can survive in a range of temperatures and food/nutrient situations. Sugar beets grown in ideal soil conditions with adequate light can yield up to 60% sugar. But, if the conditions are less than ideal, the yield goes down. Sugar beets don’t disappear. From Eskimos to Bedouins, humans are found in a wide temperature range. I don’t know if I’d enjoy living in a Yurt (a type of tent) in Mongolia but people currently do. Get a good book with photographs showing the peoples of China. In the north, taller with fair skin, in the south, shorter with yellow skin.

Many features of DNA are highly conserved, meaning error correction mechanisms make certain that errors do not creep in. Scientists, at one time, declared ‘junk DNA’ would contain the remnants of our distant evolutionary past. Not so. It turns out the junk, or non-coding regions, are useful now, today.

If the starting assumption is that evolution will be discovered here or there, it now appears that new information is radically altering that idea.

Peace,
Ed
 
So you are predicting that ID will never do any of its own research? ID has its own lab, the Biologic Institute and it has its own journal, PCID. Why isn’t ID doing its own research into this?rossum
rossum, there doesn’t seem to be much going on at the Biologic Institute. Perhaps it’s only a storefront. And I can’t find a more recent issue of “Progress in Complexity, Information, and Design” than November 2005. So it’s hard to tell what sort of “research” is being conducted. It may depend on how you define "research. "The Institute for Creation Research (ICR) conducts annual “research” trips down the Grand Canyon – it looks really cool and official if you’re carrying a rock hammer!
 
It IS cool if you are carrying a rock hammer!!! Peace
Tim
Tim, indeed! My only rock hammer is relic from piton placement days, not one used for geological exploration and research.

I just found out from a colleague that “Progress in Complexity, Information, and Design” was a Dembski vanity vehicle, not a recognized journal. That’s apparently why it’s not currently in publication.
 
Tim, indeed! My only rock hammer is relic from piton placement days, not one used for geological exploration and research.
Actually, I should have said a rock hammer, Brunton compass and a hand lens. Only the coolest people are ever seen with all three!😃

Peace

Tim
 
The article states that the mutation is rare.
It is indeed. However, it does provide a reproductive advantage - you don’t die young of a heart attack, so it can be expected to spread. Other mutations to help us cope with our overly rich diet can also be expected.
It also does not provide any predictions at all on how humans will evolve.
The article was about the mutation, not about how it might spread in future.
Or maybe they won’t – as with malaria, which has been causing significant damage to human beings for 10,000 years.
Did you notice my HbC example, which is precisely that. Furthermore the abstract explicitly talks about what is likely to happen in future:These findings, together with the limited pathology of HbAC and HbCC compared to the severely disadvantaged HbSS and HbSC genotypes and the low betaS gene frequency in the geographic epicentre of betaC, support the hypothesis that, in the long term and in the absence of malaria control, HbC would replace HbS in central West Africa.
That is an explicit prediction of what will happen in future: given the absence of malaria control then HbC will replace HbS. This was precisely what you were asking for and yet you appear to have ignored it.

rossum
 
And I can’t find a more recent issue of “Progress in Complexity, Information, and Design” than November 2005.
That is indeed the latest issue. It has been pointed out that that issue of PCID came out just before the Dover trial verdict in December 2005. Possibly significant.

rossum
 
1 Western humans will evolve ways to deal with the uncharacteristically rich western diet. See Apolipoprotein A-I Milano for one such example.

2 Humans in malarial areas will evolve better ways to deal with the malaria parasite, see HbC as an example.

3 Humans in areas with AIDS and little access to modern drugs will evolve more resistance to AIDS.

“Precisely” is not the correct word. All models of climate change come with error bars, though those error bars may not always be reported in the popular media.

Provided the warming trend is continued long enough then we will see:

1 A tendancy towards better ways to deal with a higher ambient temperature - moves towards being thinner and taller with less subcutaneous fat.

2 If there is increased sunlight then a tendancy towads darker skin.

3 If there is a shortage of water then a tendancy towards a reduced need for water and a more efficient recovery of water from urine.

In short, evolution follows the environment. If we can forecast the long term environment then we can also make reasonable forecasts as to what evolution might do in the long term.

rossum
Would it be proper to say that adaptation follows the environment? That way, human brains can come into play in devising ways of adapting. Maybe similar to the movie, *Swiss Family Robinson *expanded to generations…
 
Would it be proper to say that adaptation follows the environment? That way, human brains can come into play in devising ways of adapting. Maybe similar to the movie, *Swiss Family Robinson *expanded to generations…
We also now know that epigenetics comes in to play with rapid responses to environment. Evolution and long ages are not needed. This suggest the adaptability is already programmed in.
 
Would it be proper to say that adaptation follows the environment? That way, human brains can come into play in devising ways of adapting. Maybe similar to the movie, *Swiss Family Robinson *expanded to generations…
Granny, I’m sure adaptation follows the environment. But “devising ways of adapting” stands outside of biological evolution; it may be included withing cultural evolution.
 
The article was about the mutation, not about how it might spread in future.
You claimed that it was about evolutionary predictions and I wasted the time to read it and discover that it was not about that.

This explains why I didn’t read your second link. That also makes a prediction about what will happen “without malaria control”, but not whether malaria control will occur and/or what will happen with malaria control. So, it’s not much value as a prediction.
This was precisely what you were asking for and yet you appear to have ignored it.
Again, I wasted time on a link that provided nothing. I didn’t bother with the second link, but now I see it is an abstract that provides this prediction:

“and the low betaS gene frequency in the geographic epicentre of betaC, support the hypothesis that, in the long term and in the absence of malaria control, HbC would replace HbS in central West Africa.”

It does not explain why malaria has been a harmful disease for the entire history of the human race. Nor does it explain when, precisely, HbC will replace HbS. And as mentioned, it says nothing about how malaria control will occur or not occur and how that will affect the results.
 
You claimed that it was about evolutionary predictions and I wasted the time to read it and discover that it was not about that.

This explains why I didn’t read your second link. That also makes a prediction about what will happen “without malaria control”, but not whether malaria control will occur and/or what will happen with malaria control. So, it’s not much value as a prediction.

Again, I wasted time on a link that provided nothing. I didn’t bother with the second link, but now I see it is an abstract that provides this prediction:

“and the low betaS gene frequency in the geographic epicentre of betaC, support the hypothesis that, in the long term and in the absence of malaria control, HbC would replace HbS in central West Africa.”

It does not explain why malaria has been a harmful disease for the entire history of the human race. Nor does it explain when, precisely, HbC will replace HbS. And as mentioned, it says nothing about how malaria control will occur or not occur and how that will affect the results.
One of the biggest reasons for malaria is that the people started moving to the wetlands. Formerly they settled in the dryer highlands.
 
One of the biggest reasons for malaria is that the people started moving to the wetlands. Formerly they settled in the dryer highlands.
I think some research shows malaria has affected the entire history of homo sapien life – and evolution has not yet caused an immunity to it.
 
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